Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:26 pm I would say, "All the difference in the world." And in regard to legitimation, He alone makes legitimation a rational idea.
Is that all you got?
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:26 pm I would say, "All the difference in the world." And in regard to legitimation, He alone makes legitimation a rational idea.
Ummm...
So where is this legitimate regime? My point is not about what some people claim not to see, it is that the political reality of our world looks exactly the same as one in which God has no interest. Whatever other arguments you might have to support your belief in God, political legitimacy simply isn't among them.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:26 pmWell some people claim to see nothing.tillingborn wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:05 pmIsn't that exactly what we do see?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:44 pmIf we start by believing that this world is merely a random product of time plus chance, and that it has no inherent purpose, no objective moral facts in it, and no ultimate telos or goal, then the answer is going to be "legitimation looks like a fiction," and plausibly, like Nietzsche said, merely a sort of attempt by the supporters of one regime to (illegitimately) seize power over others." And that's all it's ever going to be, if that's the supposition we start with, so nothing is every going to be "legitimate." It's all going to be a fix.
Who mentioned anything about "examining"?
I suggest you look at the actual words I write ONLY, then, hopefully, you will see, and understand, the absolute Truth, simplicity, and obviousness in them.
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:32 amUmmm...Sculptor wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:29 pmFact there was once a time when there were no universals of tyrrany.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:19 pm
Heh. That's a liiiiitle broad. Can you give some specific evidence?
Okay, there's not really an easy way to say this, but that's not quite what a "universal" means. You're using the world in a colloquial sense, I see, whereas I meant it in a philosophical sense.
This is just an abuse of langauge. You do not know what you are talking about.
Legitimation of a particular government can only actually be achieved if there is some universal principle of authority that corresponds that that type of governance...such as, "the majority is right," or "monarchy is sacred," or "collectives can rightly exploit individuals," some axiom that show that Democracy, Monarchy or Socialism (respectively) would be the ultimately right government.
Rubbish.
A "tyrant," by definition, is not "legitimate." Tyrants do not offer legitimations; they transgress all of them. That's what makes us call them "tyrants."
It depends. What do you think is the foundational principle of legitimacy?tillingborn wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:07 amSo where is this legitimate regime?
It doesn't depend on what I think. You were making some vague, hand-wavy allusion to the legitimacy of government being a product of intelligent design. Your concern was that:Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:55 pmIt depends. What do you think is the foundational principle of legitimacy?
My point is that the political world looks exactly like one that "is merely a random product of time plus chance".Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:26 pmIf we start by believing that this world is merely a random product of time plus chance, and that it has no inherent purpose, no objective moral facts in it, and no ultimate telos or goal, then the answer is going to be "legitimation looks like a fiction," and plausibly, like Nietzsche said, merely a sort of attempt by the supporters of one regime to (illegitimately) seize power over others." And that's all it's ever going to be, if that's the supposition we start with, so nothing is every going to be "legitimate." It's all going to be a fix.
Actual legitimacy doesn't, of course. But what you will accept as legitimate is absolutely determined by it.tillingborn wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:17 pmIt doesn't depend on what I think.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:55 pmIt depends. What do you think is the foundational principle of legitimacy?
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:56 pmHeh. Well, that's the level of your understanding is it? Okay.