Which is exactly what we see in the real world.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:01 pmThen there would also be no legitimation. There would only be competing power-groups, with none of them any objectively "better" or "more legitimate" than any other.Sculptor wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:16 pmExcept that there are really no universal principles.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:57 pm Legitimation has to be on some universal principle, not on personal preference.
the righteous tyrant
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Re: the righteous tyrant
Re: the righteous tyrant
No, they don't. Examining everything in detail may or may not bring any particular understanding. And any particular understanding is not necessarily (nor even likely) a broader understanding than the detail that's being obsessed over.
Re: the righteous tyrant
Rubbish.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:01 pmThen there would also be no legitimation. There would only be competing power-groups, with none of them any objectively "better" or "more legitimate" than any other.Sculptor wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:16 pmExcept that there are really no universal principles.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:57 pm Legitimation has to be on some universal principle, not on personal preference.
DO you think principles of tyrrany existed before civilisation?
The answer to that is no.
That means that ALL principles are mere inventions, and inventions come and go in culture. It is simply an abuse of language to pretend that they are universal or that universality is the only leans of legitimation. You are, in thism as in many similar instances completely wrong. I think it maybe due to a lack of historical appreciation.
Fact is that Stalin's brand of tyrrany was new; not universal, yet fully legitimated by the heirarchy - the old "legitimacy" being fully swept away.
And for some point in history every single instance of a new category of legitimation was born new from the imagaination. Not universal nor objective in any sense.
Eventually you will learn that this is also true of all morality.
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Re: the righteous tyrant
That depends. Is the reason we don't see any legitimation because legitimation is not possible? Or is it because we pre-emptively decided that no grounds of legitimation will ever be acknowledged.tillingborn wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:07 pmWhich is exactly what we see in the real world.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:01 pmThen there would also be no legitimation. There would only be competing power-groups, with none of them any objectively "better" or "more legitimate" than any other.
It's not like it's an impartial, factual observation: it's presumptive. But something may still be objectively legitimate, even if we individually refuse to acknowledge that it is.
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Re: the righteous tyrant
No, it's true. I rarely say this, but Advocate seems to see what's at stake here. No universals means no basis for legitimation, period.Sculptor wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:43 pmRubbish.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:01 pmThen there would also be no legitimation. There would only be competing power-groups, with none of them any objectively "better" or "more legitimate" than any other.
Re: the righteous tyrant
And somehow, in between all the illegitimacy and power-struggles humans somehow live better and longer lives in 2020 AD than they lived in 2020BC.
How did we manage to make anything better in between all the tribalism?
Re: the righteous tyrant
Uhhh. Do you think ANY principles existed before humans invented them?
Imagine that! Out with the old - in with the new.
And in between all of this newer and newer legitimation things, somehow, keep getting better for more and more people.
The mystery.
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Re: the righteous tyrant
Hard to say. What would legitimation look like if it were in front of us?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:22 pmIs the reason we don't see any legitimation because legitimation is not possible? Or is it because we pre-emptively decided that no grounds of legitimation will ever be acknowledged.
Re: the righteous tyrant
It would look like the least shit choice given the alternatives.tillingborn wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:21 pm Hard to say. What would legitimation look like if it were in front of us?
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Re: the righteous tyrant
Espionage and fraternisation. It's a mix of fear and loathing with love and sharing. Well done you for your steadfast loathsomeness.
Re: the righteous tyrant
A claim that does not even make sense.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:24 pm No universals means no basis for legitimation, period.
What not try and establish your claim rather than ignore the evidence I have presented.
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Re: the righteous tyrant
Do you understand what Immanuel Can means by 'legitimation'? Perhaps you two could get together so that the rest of us know what you mean.Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:23 pmIt would look like the least shit choice given the alternatives.tillingborn wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:21 pm Hard to say. What would legitimation look like if it were in front of us?
Re: the righteous tyrant
If you had no enemies to loathe, who would you steal secrets from; and fraternise against?tillingborn wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:32 pm Espionage and fraternisation. It's a mix of fear and loathing with love and sharing. Well done you for your steadfast loathsomeness.
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Re: the righteous tyrant
Well, based on what suppositions? If we start by believing that this world is merely a random product of time plus chance, and that it has no inherent purpose, no objective moral facts in it, and no ultimate telos or goal, then the answer is going to be "legitimation looks like a fiction," and plausibly, like Nietzsche said, merely a sort of attempt by the supporters of one regime to (illegitimately) seize power over others." And that's all it's ever going to be, if that's the supposition we start with, so nothing is every going to be "legitimate." It's all going to be a fix.tillingborn wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:21 pmHard to say. What would legitimation look like if it were in front of us?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:22 pmIs the reason we don't see any legitimation because legitimation is not possible? Or is it because we pre-emptively decided that no grounds of legitimation will ever be acknowledged.
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