Can't you see I am an Empirical Realist, i.e. what is real is confined to what is empirical, i.e. human possibility of realizing the real. I am relying on empirical-philosophical justifications here.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Sun Apr 04, 2021 2:12 pmIf you're just saying that there are no facts that would obtain if humans didn't exist, that could only be because you're some sort of ontological idealist (which has zero justification) or you're confusing "fact" with something like "true proposition."Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Apr 04, 2021 8:43 am If you are familiar with 'thing-in-itself' then you could easily relate 'a fact as a thing' to 'fact-in-itself' - apple-in-itself, table-in-itself, car-in-itself, diamond-in-itself, atom-in-itself, and so on.
If there are no humans at all, there is no empirical reality - that is a very logical justification.
On the other hand your are an Ontological Idealist entangled with ideas and ideals in the head only.
You are only ASSUMMING there are real things if there are no humans, i.e. you are relying on ideas and ideals speculated from the past experiences, thus ontological idealism.
What is most real to your is only in your head, i.e. ideas and ideals in your head.
What is fact of reality is You -the subject - is never in direct contact with the supposed object, i.e. real thing out there.
There is always are reality-gap between the subject and the object.
The realists merely ASSUME there is a supposedly independent real thing out there which they are perceiving.
The anti-realists argue there is no such independent real thing out there, rather what is object is always entangled with the human conditions.
Thus what you have experienced is NEVER the the real thing because there is always a reality-gap that cannot allow any conception of a really real independent object out there.
Because the reality-gap, whatever is real is confined to whatever is entangled with the human conditions.
This entanglement with reality [factual] is via a framework and system of reality or knowledge [FSK].
Therefore if there are no humans, then there are no FSK-dependent-Facts*.
*FSK-dependent-Facts are different from your bastardized definition of 'what is fact'.