"In the beginning God created ...."

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Immanuel Can
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Re: "In the beginning God created ...."

Post by Immanuel Can »

tillingborn wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 10:38 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:15 pm
tillingborn wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 4:12 pm What made you do all that work in the first place?
"Work"? What "work"?
Perhaps you don't think of it as work, but you have evidently researched the Christian story fairly comprehensively. What drew you to it in the first place?
I came to Christianity through Jesus Christ. I was on a search for answers, and included Him in my various options. I was, at the time, reading in literature very broadly, and was looking in particular at some of the great Atheists and agnostics. But I felt I should be at least open to other options, so I did some reading in other things as well. When I really spent some time looking at who He is and what He says, I was persuaded to go a step further, and find out more. But when one starts down that road, one finds it does not end.

So what drew me was a Person. And it wasn't "aesthetic." It was His ethics, His integrity, His coherence, His teaching, the path He drew, His example of following it out, and His wisdom, among other things. He is quite simply much better than all the other alternatives, in that regard.

The "work" came gradually and developed later. I already had discovered I was on the track that merited the work.
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VVilliam
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Re: "In the beginning God created ...."

Post by VVilliam »

Belinda wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 10:14 am
VVilliam wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 8:47 pm
Belinda wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 8:20 pm
Ontic realities are not places.
Therefore it must be that which is experiencing which is a 'place'
That which experiences in this reality of physical and mental aspects is indeed a place. That place is the brain-mind. However for all we can know there are other realities besides the one in which we are conversing. Our brain-minds are filters or mirrors of whatever it is that is extramental and we can't experience anything about it.
Maybe this:
The many-worlds interpretation (MWI) is an interpretation of quantum mechanics that asserts that the universal wavefunction is objectively real, and that there is no wavefunction collapse. This implies that all possible outcomes of quantum measurements are physically realized in some "world" or universe.
Some of these mutations of the wave function perhaps don't own a physical aspect and may be accounted to be sterile for the purpose of the theory. I admit this is far -fetched I am no physicist.
We are left with one thing certain. That any type of enquiry first has to have something real in which the enquiry itself can be expressed from.

In that, the only real 'thing' is that which is making the enquiry. IF 'things' didn't exist in which to bounce off [make enquiry of] THEN what would one have to enquire about, except ones self?

Even if that which makes the enquiry is within a simulation, this does not mean that it is hallucinating.

Now IF we call this 'thing' which is doing the enquiring, "The Creator", THEN it becomes the source of everything else. [that which is being enquired about]

In that if we call everything else "The Creation" wherein does The Creator get what we in The Creation refer to as "materials" in which to do the creating with?

One answer is that the materials [as we experience them within said physical Universe primarily Planet Earth] are not 'gotten' from anywhere by The Creator, but are essentially The Mind of The Creator.

Therefore would could ascertain from this, that The Creators Mind has voids/blank areas in which The Creator imagines into existence "things" and these are referred to as "Creations" "Simulations" "Hallucinations" etc by the individuate consciousnesses within said creations, which experience these "things" as "real".

From this we could also ascertain that the individuate consciousnesses are not imagined and thus created by The Creator, but are actually [altogether] the consciousness [that which enquires] which is The Creator...essentially we are all [consciousness] The Creator experiencing The Creator's Creation.
tillingborn
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Re: "In the beginning God created ...."

Post by tillingborn »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 3:22 pmSo what drew me was a Person. And it wasn't "aesthetic." It was His ethics, His integrity, His coherence, His teaching, the path He drew, His example of following it out, and His wisdom, among other things. He is quite simply much better than all the other alternatives, in that regard.
If it wasn't aesthetic, what is it about His ethics, integrity and so on that you like?
Belinda
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Re: "In the beginning God created ...."

Post by Belinda »

VVilliam wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:56 pm
Belinda wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 10:14 am
VVilliam wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 8:47 pm

Therefore it must be that which is experiencing which is a 'place'
That which experiences in this reality of physical and mental aspects is indeed a place. That place is the brain-mind. However for all we can know there are other realities besides the one in which we are conversing. Our brain-minds are filters or mirrors of whatever it is that is extramental and we can't experience anything about it.
Maybe this:
The many-worlds interpretation (MWI) is an interpretation of quantum mechanics that asserts that the universal wavefunction is objectively real, and that there is no wavefunction collapse. This implies that all possible outcomes of quantum measurements are physically realized in some "world" or universe.
Some of these mutations of the wave function perhaps don't own a physical aspect and may be accounted to be sterile for the purpose of the theory. I admit this is far -fetched I am no physicist.
We are left with one thing certain. That any type of enquiry first has to have something real in which the enquiry itself can be expressed from.

In that, the only real 'thing' is that which is making the enquiry. IF 'things' didn't exist in which to bounce off [make enquiry of] THEN what would one have to enquire about, except ones self?

Even if that which makes the enquiry is within a simulation, this does not mean that it is hallucinating.

Now IF we call this 'thing' which is doing the enquiring, "The Creator", THEN it becomes the source of everything else. [that which is being enquired about]

In that if we call everything else "The Creation" wherein does The Creator get what we in The Creation refer to as "materials" in which to do the creating with?

One answer is that the materials [as we experience them within said physical Universe primarily Planet Earth] are not 'gotten' from anywhere by The Creator, but are essentially The Mind of The Creator.

Therefore would could ascertain from this, that The Creators Mind has voids/blank areas in which The Creator imagines into existence "things" and these are referred to as "Creations" "Simulations" "Hallucinations" etc by the individuate consciousnesses within said creations, which experience these "things" as "real".

From this we could also ascertain that the individuate consciousnesses are not imagined and thus created by The Creator, but are actually [altogether] the consciousness [that which enquires] which is The Creator...essentially we are all [consciousness] The Creator experiencing The Creator's Creation.
When philosophers pretend to be disembodied consciousnesses they should do this for the purpose of thought experiment , always with the caveat that disembodied consciousness is impossible.
Subjectivity is imperative for learning from experience.
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VVilliam
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Re: "In the beginning God created ...."

Post by VVilliam »

Belinda wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:33 am
VVilliam wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:56 pm
Belinda wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 10:14 am

That which experiences in this reality of physical and mental aspects is indeed a place. That place is the brain-mind. However for all we can know there are other realities besides the one in which we are conversing. Our brain-minds are filters or mirrors of whatever it is that is extramental and we can't experience anything about it.
Maybe this:



Some of these mutations of the wave function perhaps don't own a physical aspect and may be accounted to be sterile for the purpose of the theory. I admit this is far -fetched I am no physicist.
We are left with one thing certain. That any type of enquiry first has to have something real in which the enquiry itself can be expressed from.

In that, the only real 'thing' is that which is making the enquiry. IF 'things' didn't exist in which to bounce off [make enquiry of] THEN what would one have to enquire about, except ones self?

Even if that which makes the enquiry is within a simulation, this does not mean that it is hallucinating.

Now IF we call this 'thing' which is doing the enquiring, "The Creator", THEN it becomes the source of everything else. [that which is being enquired about]

In that if we call everything else "The Creation" wherein does The Creator get what we in The Creation refer to as "materials" in which to do the creating with?

One answer is that the materials [as we experience them within said physical Universe primarily Planet Earth] are not 'gotten' from anywhere by The Creator, but are essentially The Mind of The Creator.

Therefore would could ascertain from this, that The Creators Mind has voids/blank areas in which The Creator imagines into existence "things" and these are referred to as "Creations" "Simulations" "Hallucinations" etc by the individuate consciousnesses within said creations, which experience these "things" as "real".

From this we could also ascertain that the individuate consciousnesses are not imagined and thus created by The Creator, but are actually [altogether] the consciousness [that which enquires] which is The Creator...essentially we are all [consciousness] The Creator experiencing The Creator's Creation.
When philosophers pretend to be disembodied consciousnesses they should do this for the purpose of thought experiment , always with the caveat that disembodied consciousness is impossible.
Subjectivity is imperative for learning from experience.
If the philosopher understands disembodied consciousness is possible through having direct experience...
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Immanuel Can
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Re: "In the beginning God created ...."

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tillingborn wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:02 am If it wasn't aesthetic, what is it about His ethics, integrity and so on that you like?
Meet Him, and see. Read about Him, and decide.

If you like, take all the other moral leaders and great people you can think of along for the ride, so you can compare. Bring with you the raging and abusive Marx, the syphilitic and insane Nietzsche, the conquering Mohammed dragging his bloody sword across the centuries, the quietistic Buddha with his enlightened distain for existence, Arjuna with his great and slavering Destroyer of Worlds, bring your imperious Atheists of today, or anybody else you care to bring. Set them beside the Christ of the gospels. And do what I did: compare. Decide whom you will listen to.

You'll see.
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VVilliam
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Re: "In the beginning God created ...."

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Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 6:22 pm
tillingborn wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:02 am If it wasn't aesthetic, what is it about His ethics, integrity and so on that you like?
Meet Him, and see. Read about Him, and decide.

If you like, take all the other moral leaders and great people you can think of along for the ride, so you can compare. Bring with you the raging and abusive Marx, the syphilitic and insane Nietzsche, the conquering Mohammed dragging his bloody sword across the centuries, the quietistic Buddha with his enlightened distain for existence, Arjuna with his great and slavering Destroyer of Worlds, bring your imperious Atheists of today, or anybody else you care to bring. Set them beside the Christ of the gospels. And do what I did: compare. Decide whom you will listen to.

You'll see.
Aye. There is more than comparing notes. There is also comparing experiences. You used the notes to form images in your head. "Oh sweet Jesus!" [said every beloved/besotted follower]

They are images of gods and nothing more. All in the inner hallucination of you mindset.

If you meet a real god, you might possibly pooh yourself.

But then you would have something to throw at it, I suppose. [analogy] Top 10 animals throwing poop at people

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ma_LpIcm-Cs
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Immanuel Can
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Re: "In the beginning God created ...."

Post by Immanuel Can »

VVilliam wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 7:52 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 6:22 pm
tillingborn wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:02 am If it wasn't aesthetic, what is it about His ethics, integrity and so on that you like?
Meet Him, and see. Read about Him, and decide.

If you like, take all the other moral leaders and great people you can think of along for the ride, so you can compare. Bring with you the raging and abusive Marx, the syphilitic and insane Nietzsche, the conquering Mohammed dragging his bloody sword across the centuries, the quietistic Buddha with his enlightened distain for existence, Arjuna with his great and slavering Destroyer of Worlds, bring your imperious Atheists of today, or anybody else you care to bring. Set them beside the Christ of the gospels. And do what I did: compare. Decide whom you will listen to.

You'll see.
Aye. There is more than comparing notes. There is also comparing experiences.
It's your call. My job begins and ends with telling you where to look. It stops well short of forcing you to do the right thing. That's up to you. It's you that will answer for your choice, not me.

There is no more important choice than what a man did when he was offered the chance to look at Jesus Christ. To refuse is to make a decision. I hope you make the right one. But either way, you'll remember this conversation one day, and you'll wish you'd taken the chance to do what I'm inviting you to do. You'll realize then that I was doing you a favour.
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VVilliam
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Re: "In the beginning God created ...."

Post by VVilliam »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:36 pm
VVilliam wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 7:52 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 6:22 pm
Meet Him, and see. Read about Him, and decide.

If you like, take all the other moral leaders and great people you can think of along for the ride, so you can compare. Bring with you the raging and abusive Marx, the syphilitic and insane Nietzsche, the conquering Mohammed dragging his bloody sword across the centuries, the quietistic Buddha with his enlightened distain for existence, Arjuna with his great and slavering Destroyer of Worlds, bring your imperious Atheists of today, or anybody else you care to bring. Set them beside the Christ of the gospels. And do what I did: compare. Decide whom you will listen to.

You'll see.
Aye. There is more than comparing notes. There is also comparing experiences.
It's your call. My job begins and ends with telling you where to look. It stops well short of forcing you to do the right thing. That's up to you. It's you that will answer for your choice, not me.

There is no more important choice than what a man did when he was offered the chance to look at Jesus Christ. To refuse is to make a decision. I hope you make the right one. But either way, you'll remember this conversation one day, and you'll wish you'd taken the chance to do what I'm inviting you to do. You'll realize then that I was doing you a favour.
Your assumptions regarding me appear to know no bounds!

What makes you think that I do not already follow Christ and that my experiences [which you have implied are probably hallucinations] happen as a result of that...
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Immanuel Can
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Re: "In the beginning God created ...."

Post by Immanuel Can »

VVilliam wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:00 pm What makes you think that I do not already follow Christ
Well, your own derision of the idea certainly seems to declare that. But if I misjudge that, please feel free to explain.
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VVilliam
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Re: "In the beginning God created ...."

Post by VVilliam »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:37 pm
VVilliam wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:00 pm What makes you think that I do not already follow Christ
Well, your own derision of the idea certainly seems to declare that. But if I misjudge that, please feel free to explain.
What "derision of the idea" are you implying I am declaring?
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VVilliam
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Re: "In the beginning God created ...."

Post by VVilliam »

In the beginning [of this universe]


The Christian god, "God" [a name of a Creator]

Created...something that has been brought into existence or created.

Simulation is also a creation [is created]

[the production of a computer model of something, especially for the purpose of study]

In relation to the idea that a creator created this universe [as per Christian mythology]

That many Christians would not see this as "a model of something for the purpose of study" does not mean that it isn't, or does not fit in with anything Jesus is said to have revealed.

Point being, if Christian mythology points agreeably to the idea that The Creator "brought the universe into existence" and also has within said mythology, the idea that the Universe has a purpose which would naturally include the study of the results of doing so [in relation to those experiencing said creation], then it becomes clear that the creation is also a simulation...because it has purpose and because it produces results which can be studied and learned from/by.
tillingborn
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Re: "In the beginning God created ...."

Post by tillingborn »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 6:22 pm
tillingborn wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:02 amIf it wasn't aesthetic, what is it about His ethics, integrity and so on that you like?
Meet Him, and see. Read about Him, and decide.

If you like, take all the other moral leaders and great people you can think of along for the ride, so you can compare. Bring with you the raging and abusive Marx, the syphilitic and insane Nietzsche, the conquering Mohammed dragging his bloody sword across the centuries, the quietistic Buddha with his enlightened distain for existence, Arjuna with his great and slavering Destroyer of Worlds, bring your imperious Atheists of today, or anybody else you care to bring. Set them beside the Christ of the gospels. And do what I did: compare. Decide whom you will listen to.

You'll see.
You are advocating a popularity contest. That is what you have been denying belief boils down to. Having read what you suggest and a great deal more, I think there are sources of wisdom other than the Bible. Granted it is a rich source, but it also contains demands that I think no loving God could make. For example: “If you come to me but will not leave your family, you cannot be my follower. You must love me more than your father, mother, wife, children, brothers, and sisters—even more than your own life!" Jesus himself insists that Christianity is a popularity contest.
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VVilliam
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Re: "In the beginning God created ...."

Post by VVilliam »

tillingborn wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 1:37 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 6:22 pm
tillingborn wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:02 amIf it wasn't aesthetic, what is it about His ethics, integrity and so on that you like?
Meet Him, and see. Read about Him, and decide.

If you like, take all the other moral leaders and great people you can think of along for the ride, so you can compare. Bring with you the raging and abusive Marx, the syphilitic and insane Nietzsche, the conquering Mohammed dragging his bloody sword across the centuries, the quietistic Buddha with his enlightened distain for existence, Arjuna with his great and slavering Destroyer of Worlds, bring your imperious Atheists of today, or anybody else you care to bring. Set them beside the Christ of the gospels. And do what I did: compare. Decide whom you will listen to.

You'll see.
You are advocating a popularity contest. That is what you have been denying belief boils down to. Having read what you suggest and a great deal more, I think there are sources of wisdom other than the Bible. Granted it is a rich source, but it also contains demands that I think no loving God could make. For example: “If you come to me but will not leave your family, you cannot be my follower. You must love me more than your father, mother, wife, children, brothers, and sisters—even more than your own life!" Jesus himself insists that Christianity is a popularity contest.
I interject to say that from personal experience this attitude which Jesus is said to have promoted has to do with what is hidden information within it, rather than only a literal interpretation.

It is directly linked to the concept Jesus was using in relation to being born again. One has to remove the garments that these other things [father, mother, wife, children, brothers, and sisters—your own life-plans)] which were placed upon your being, and in doing so present yourself naked an unashamed ready for the higher call of duty.
The world depends upon it [as per the plan.]
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Immanuel Can
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Re: "In the beginning God created ...."

Post by Immanuel Can »

tillingborn wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 1:37 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 6:22 pm
tillingborn wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:02 amIf it wasn't aesthetic, what is it about His ethics, integrity and so on that you like?
Meet Him, and see. Read about Him, and decide.

If you like, take all the other moral leaders and great people you can think of along for the ride, so you can compare. Bring with you the raging and abusive Marx, the syphilitic and insane Nietzsche, the conquering Mohammed dragging his bloody sword across the centuries, the quietistic Buddha with his enlightened distain for existence, Arjuna with his great and slavering Destroyer of Worlds, bring your imperious Atheists of today, or anybody else you care to bring. Set them beside the Christ of the gospels. And do what I did: compare. Decide whom you will listen to.

You'll see.
You are advocating a popularity contest.
No. A comparison. Just look. You'll see. I won't have to make the argument. The facts will make it for me.
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