The observer cannot be observed

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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Belinda
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Re: The observer cannot be observed

Post by Belinda »

Dontaskme wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 8:20 am Proof the observer cannot be observed.


Image


The Eastern ontology , and modern neuroscience, are together in debunking the theory illustrated in the above cartoon.
all these body maps and recursive loops - get transformed into conscious experience, into that metaphysical figment we call the self.
copied and pasted from article in Wired about a recent book on neuroscience by Damasio.
Dontaskme
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Re: The observer cannot be observed

Post by Dontaskme »

Belinda wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:54 am The Eastern ontology , and modern neuroscience, are together in debunking the theory illustrated in the above cartoon.
all these body maps and recursive loops - get transformed into conscious experience, into that metaphysical figment we call the self.
copied and pasted from article in Wired about a recent book on neuroscience by Damasio.
So tell me how do ''labels known'' aka the labels ''Eastern ontology'' and ''neuroscience'' and ''Damasio'' debunk a theory, when reality is clearly nondual consciousness which is not a theory it is fact.

Explain that why don't you?

It's like saying consciousness can debunk consciousness...so how does it do that then? huh!

It's like saying the contents of consciousness, aka the labels known to consciousness can debunk consciousness that knows them....notice how absurd that is?

.
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henry quirk
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Re: The observer cannot be observed

Post by henry quirk »

Dontaskme wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:31 pm
henry quirk wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:12 pm The point is no action is ever taken without the intent ..so the automated hunger is what drives any intent to react or not react to the hunger.

yep, that's what I said: I get hungry and I decide what to do about it


...you'll notice that you won't know the exact moment the choice began or ended...

that's not my experience, no
Decision is not your experience either, you observe the experience of decision , you do not experience an experience. There are here only reactions, not actions.
wrong...I decide & act...my experience of decision (makin') is embedded in the self-referencing I do as I decide or choose

your mistake: you fixate on the experiencing, which really is a minor thing; another mistake is playin' the isolation game, which is -- as I say elsewhere -- the equivalent of layin' out all a man's organs on a table and thinkin' these discrete, disconnected pieces can tell you anything about the person...man is a whole, not a collection of parts...man's mind isn't sumthin' to be teased out and dissected

now, mebbe your head works exactly as you describe it, but mine doesn't and you'll do me the favor of not tellin' me -- in effect -- I don't know myself
Dontaskme
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Re: The observer cannot be observed

Post by Dontaskme »

Dontaskme wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:31 pm
Decision is not your experience either, you observe the experience of decision , you do not experience an experience. There are here only reactions, not actions.
henry quirk wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:48 pmwrong...I decide & act...my experience of decision (makin') is embedded in the self-referencing I do as I decide or choose
You are not experiencing the experience of choice and decision in the immediate realtime presentational moment, because the immediate moment is always presentational, not a represention, in the moment there is only the ''unaware experiencing'' not the known experience. The 'experience' is known to have occurred only upon self-reflection, which is 'knowledge on demand' retrieved via the memory, which is a re-flective re-presentation of what's already happened to no one, now appearing as if it is a someone..and this description is of my humble opinion, which I'm not forcing on you or anyone else to agree with, it's just an opinion ok.. we can both describe the same idea, but have different ways of describing it that's all.
henry quirk wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:48 pmyour mistake: you fixate on the experiencing, which really is a minor thing; another mistake is playin' the isolation game, which is -- as I say elsewhere -- the equivalent of layin' out all a man's organs on a table and thinkin' these discrete, disconnected pieces can tell you anything about the person...man is a whole, not a collection of parts...man's mind isn't sumthin' to be teased out and dissected

now, mebbe your head works exactly as you describe it, but mine doesn't and you'll do me the favor of not tellin' me -- in effect -- I don't know myself
Fine then, but that doesn't mean any one of us is mistaken, it just means what you know is how you will describe your personal story.

Same with me here, I describe it as I see it, even if it's different to the way you see, doesn't make it a mistake, if mine is a mistake in comparison to how you describe it, then do me a favor of not telling me I don't know myself ...

It works both ways, the mind is a two way mirror.
Dontaskme
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Re: The observer cannot be observed

Post by Dontaskme »

Dontaskme wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:31 pm
Decision is not your experience either, you observe the experience of decision , you do not experience an experience. There are here only reactions, not actions.
henry quirk wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:48 pmwrong...I decide & act...my experience of decision (makin') is embedded in the self-referencing I do as I decide or choose
You are not experiencing the experience of choice and decision in the immediate realtime presentational moment, because the immediate moment is always presentational, not a represention, in the moment there is only the ''unaware experiencing'' not the known experience. The 'experience' is known to have occurred only upon self-reflection, which is 'knowledge on demand' retrieved via the memory, which is a re-flective re-presentation of what's already happened to no one, now appearing as if it is a someone..and this description is of my humble opinion, which I'm not forcing on you or anyone else to agree with, it's just an opinion ok.. we can both describe the same idea, but have different ways of describing it that's all.
henry quirk wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:48 pmyour mistake: you fixate on the experiencing, which really is a minor thing; another mistake is playin' the isolation game, which is -- as I say elsewhere -- the equivalent of layin' out all a man's organs on a table and thinkin' these discrete, disconnected pieces can tell you anything about the person...man is a whole, not a collection of parts...man's mind isn't sumthin' to be teased out and dissected

now, mebbe your head works exactly as you describe it, but mine doesn't and you'll do me the favor of not tellin' me -- in effect -- I don't know myself
Fine then, but that doesn't mean any one of us is mistaken, it just means what you know is how you will describe your personal story.

Same with me here, I describe it as I see it, even if it's different to the way you see, doesn't make it a mistake, if mine is a mistake in comparison to how you describe it, then do me a favor of not telling me I don't know myself ...

It works both ways, the mind is a two way mirror.

And yes, man is a whole, I've never ever seen only half a man, and I've never denied that man is a whole, so I don't know why you had to bring that up for. Language cannot describe nonduality, and is why language will always appear as dualism, the dissection you speak of.

In essence, we're on the same page here, but the difference is in the way we express self using words, that's all. Maybe you don't agree with that, which matters not, because quite frankly I don't care, and you probably don't either.
Dontaskme
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Re: The observer cannot be observed

Post by Dontaskme »

As to the concept of wholeness ...

The WHOLE is never seen all at once. Whole is Only known.

No known 3D object is ever seen in it's whole state, only part of the whole is ever seen even though it's known, and in that knowing it is known to have no parts separate from the whole..

So once again, I repeat...the one looking out of the eyes cannot be looked upon by that same looking...it's just as impossible as an itch being able to scratch itself.

Looking is 1 directional illustrated very well in the image I've provided on this thread.
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henry quirk
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Re: The observer cannot be observed

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then do me a favor of not telling me I don't know myself

I didn't...like I say: mebbe your head works exactly as you describe it

you might do a better job of communicatin' if you stuck with self-description, self-assessment, etc.

for example, instead of tellin' me You are not experiencing the experience of choice and decision in the immediate realtime presentational moment, because the immediate moment is always presentational, not a represention, in the moment there is only the ''unaware experiencing'' not the known experience.

say this, instead: I do not experience the experience of choice and decision in the immediate realtime presentational moment, because the immediate moment is always presentational, not a represention, in the moment there is only the ''unaware experiencing'' not the known experience.

see the difference?

in the first, you're lecturin' a man who's told you over and over no, that's not how it works for me

in the second: you're offerin' a perspective
Dontaskme
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Re: The observer cannot be observed

Post by Dontaskme »

henry quirk wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:58 pm then do me a favor of not telling me I don't know myself

I didn't...like I say: mebbe your head works exactly as you describe it

you might do a better job of communicatin' if you stuck with self-description, self-assessment, etc.

for example, instead of tellin' me You are not experiencing the experience of choice and decision in the immediate realtime presentational moment, because the immediate moment is always presentational, not a represention, in the moment there is only the ''unaware experiencing'' not the known experience.

say this, instead: I do not experience the experience of choice and decision in the immediate realtime presentational moment, because the immediate moment is always presentational, not a represention, in the moment there is only the ''unaware experiencing'' not the known experience.

see the difference?

in the first, you're lecturin' a man who's told you over and over no, that's not how it works for me

in the second: you're offerin' a perspective
Ok.

I - you - me / me - you - I = same difference to me.

But thanks for the pedantic lecture on the art of betterment.
Dimebag
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Re: The observer cannot be observed

Post by Dimebag »

Just as no one ever questions their experience of the world, thinking what they see and hear is them having direct contact with the world, the same can be said of our selves, we never think about ourselves, and wonder what is this one whom I take myself to be, inside this body, experiencing the world, making decisions.

The mind has a vested interest in not revealing itself to itself, it’s the way the organism functions optimally for survival. But survival is not the same as well being.

In this world, our survival is much more secure than it has been in the past. For that reason, the importance of taking the world on its word is not so crucial. We can question it at the basest level, including ourselves.

You may not want to, and that is of course fine. But that is the crux of this thread. If you don’t wish to engage in self examination, or, maybe you are unable to, then that’s fine. The only way one can take anything away from this thread is to be open to the possibility of it’s truth, and to look truly, quietly without judgement.

But you see, your own mind doesn’t want you to discover this, it’s set up many traps along the way, defences of itself, to divert you away from this fact. One had to be persistent to realise the hollow nature of the self. Most likely the only way to gain that persistence is by being given a peek behind the veil of perception. Some get it from psychedelics, and experience the dissolution of their self, others are given a spontaneous peek, as happened to me, many others are driven by suffering in their own lives and the seeking for peace and liberation.

If you don’t have these energies driving you, you will not know or come to know what is spoken about here. The mind and ego is too persistent and strong to give away its secrets so easily.

Likely you are comfortable as you are, but, if as a youngster you experienced some drive, some feeling that there was a problem with the world, with existence, something that needed to be discovered, this might scratch that itch. It’s the ultimate uncovering, to realise who you thought you were was a construction.

The ego when threatened sends you off on an adventure to discover a new identity, so as to veil itself again in a new outfit. But many in life never really find one that fits right, leaving the ego vulnerable and exposed. These people are probably the best candidates for discovering this. Those secure in their identity are by virtue of this, veiled in their identity, the very thing which stands in the way of this discovery.
Last edited by Dimebag on Fri Oct 30, 2020 12:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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henry quirk
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Re: The observer cannot be observed

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Dontaskme wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 7:17 pm
henry quirk wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:58 pm then do me a favor of not telling me I don't know myself

I didn't...like I say: mebbe your head works exactly as you describe it

you might do a better job of communicatin' if you stuck with self-description, self-assessment, etc.

for example, instead of tellin' me You are not experiencing the experience of choice and decision in the immediate realtime presentational moment, because the immediate moment is always presentational, not a represention, in the moment there is only the ''unaware experiencing'' not the known experience.

say this, instead: I do not experience the experience of choice and decision in the immediate realtime presentational moment, because the immediate moment is always presentational, not a represention, in the moment there is only the ''unaware experiencing'' not the known experience.

see the difference?

in the first, you're lecturin' a man who's told you over and over no, that's not how it works for me

in the second: you're offerin' a perspective
Ok.

I - you - me / me - you - I = same difference to me.

But thanks for the pedantic lecture on the art of betterment.
you're welcome, you preachy person
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henry quirk
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Re: The observer cannot be observed

Post by henry quirk »

Dimebag wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:22 pm Just as no one ever questions their experience of the world, thinking what they see and hear is them having direct contact with the world, the same can be said if our selves, we never think about ourselves, and wonder what is this one whom I take myself to be, inside this body, experiencing the world, making decisions.

The mind has a vested interest in not revealing itself to itself, it’s the way the organism functions optimally for survival. But survival is not the same as well being.

In this world, our survival is much more secure than it has been in the past. For that reason, the importance of taking the world on its word is not so crucial. We can question it at the basest level, including ourselves.

You may not want to, and that is of course fine. But that is the crux of this thread. If you don’t wish to engage in self examination, or, maybe you are unable to, then that’s fine. The only way one can take anything away from this thread is to be open to the possibility if it’s truth, and to look truly, quietly without judgement.

But you see, your own mind doesn’t want you to discover this, it’s set up many traps along the way, defences of itself, to divert you away from this fact. One had to be persistent to realise the hollow nature of the self. Most likely the only way to gain that persistence is by being given a peek behind the veil of perception. Some get it from psychedelics, and experience the dissolution of their self, others are given a spontaneous peek, as happened to me, many others are driven by suffering in their own lives and the seeking for peace and liberation.

If you don’t have these energies driving you, you will not know or come to know what is spoken about here. The mind and ego is too persistent and strong to give away its secrets so easily.

Likely you are comfortable as you are, but, if as a youngster you experienced some drive, some feeling that there was a problem with the world, with existence, something that needed to be discovered, this might scratch that itch. It’s the ultimate uncovering, to realise who you thought you were was a construction.

The ego when threatened sends you off on an adventure to discover a new identity, so as to veil itself again in a new outfit. But many in life never really find one that fits right, leaving the ego vulnerable and exposed. These people are probably the best candidates for discovering this. Those secure in their identity are by virtue of this, veiled in their identity, the very thing which stands in the way of this discovery.
and another one who thinks he knows how other folks' heads work
Dontaskme
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Re: The observer cannot be observed

Post by Dontaskme »

henry quirk wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:42 pm
you preachy person
Projection.

I know you think you know how my head works, but trust me, you don't.
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henry quirk
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Re: The observer cannot be observed

Post by henry quirk »

Dontaskme wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:46 pm
henry quirk wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:42 pm
you preachy person
Projection.

I know you think you know how my head works, but trust me, you don't.
I have no clue how your head works and I never said I did (goin' by your descriptions, though, it seems to be a nightmare)

as for projectin': I ain't preachin', you are

me: I'm just telln' you and all the others like you -- again -- mebbe your head(s) work like that but mine doesn't
Dontaskme
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Re: The observer cannot be observed

Post by Dontaskme »

henry quirk wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:57 pm

me: I'm just telln' you and all the others like you -- again -- mebbe your head(s) work like that but mine doesn't
More projection.

Don't tell others that their heads don't work like yours, it's preaching.
Dontaskme
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Re: The observer cannot be observed

Post by Dontaskme »

henry quirk wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:57 pm
I have no clue how your head works and I never said I did (goin' by your descriptions, though, it seems to be a nightmare)

Yeah, I agree, it really is a nighmare trying to make headways...mebbe don't bother even trying might help you.

Image
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