God's immutability: OT vs. NT God, the same?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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cicero117
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God's immutability: OT vs. NT God, the same?

Post by cicero117 »

SoI was comparing the OT and NT. I knew that God's character is different, in OT he was really harsh to mankind, for example, His chosen people was the Israelites and all other nation cannot receive salvation.

In the NT, Jesus was depicted as forgiving, teaches us to be kind to everyone and spread his words.

In a way I already the answer which is that the NT God is the fulfilment of the prophecy of the OT. The OT and the NT also didn't contradict themselves because there are a lot of verses with the same interpretation, though different in words, take Psalm 102:27 and Hebrew 13:8 for example.

But I can't explain how God's character is so different, how He is so intolerant in the OT and so tolerant in the NT.

Another controversial question,
In the OT, God chooses Israelites to be his chosen people and condemn other nations
In the NT, salvation is given for everyone who chose to believe in Jesus

It can be argued that God choses Israel as His chosen people to be the "predecessor" of Jesus and because of that, they should be a nation that trusts in the Lord and do His will to "prepare" for Jesus's coming. But what about other nations, aliens living with Israelites, do they also receive salvation? Because in the OT, you need to be the descendant of Abraham, Jesus haven't died on the cross to redeem all of us.

thoughts?
Impenitent
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Re: God's immutability: OT vs. NT God, the same?

Post by Impenitent »

they were written in different languages for different audiences

-Imp
cicero117
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Re: God's immutability: OT vs. NT God, the same?

Post by cicero117 »

Impenitent wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:45 am they were written in different languages for different audiences

-Imp
I don't think your answer answers any of my question, I was asking for proves that justified God's divinity. Although the OT was written in Hebrew, Jews in Jesus time such as Paul understands the OT very well.

Even Hebrew is basically NT version of the OT since it discuss and revisited a lot of matters in the OT.
Do you have any other thoughts?
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Sculptor
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Re: God's immutability: OT vs. NT God, the same?

Post by Sculptor »

cicero117 wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:36 am SoI was comparing the OT and NT. I knew that God's character is different, in OT he was really harsh to mankind, for example, His chosen people was the Israelites and all other nation cannot receive salvation.

In the NT, Jesus was depicted as forgiving, teaches us to be kind to everyone and spread his words.

In a way I already the answer which is that the NT God is the fulfilment of the prophecy of the OT. The OT and the NT also didn't contradict themselves because there are a lot of verses with the same interpretation, though different in words, take Psalm 102:27 and Hebrew 13:8 for example.

But I can't explain how God's character is so different, how He is so intolerant in the OT and so tolerant in the NT.

Another controversial question,
In the OT, God chooses Israelites to be his chosen people and condemn other nations
In the NT, salvation is given for everyone who chose to believe in Jesus

It can be argued that God choses Israel as His chosen people to be the "predecessor" of Jesus and because of that, they should be a nation that trusts in the Lord and do His will to "prepare" for Jesus's coming. But what about other nations, aliens living with Israelites, do they also receive salvation? Because in the OT, you need to be the descendant of Abraham, Jesus haven't died on the cross to redeem all of us.

thoughts?
But there are also inconsistencies within the OT and within the NT
Have you ever considered the bleeding obvious?
If J K Rowling or J R R Tolkien had offered such whopping great errors in their characters no one would have read their books.
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Sculptor
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Re: God's immutability: OT vs. NT God, the same?

Post by Sculptor »

Impenitent wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:45 am they were written in different languages for different audiences

-Imp
By different people and ABOUT different things.
cicero117
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Re: God's immutability: OT vs. NT God, the same?

Post by cicero117 »

Sculptor wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:59 pm
But there are also inconsistencies within the OT and within the NT
Can you prove this statement? Because as far as I know, the OT and the NT is harmonious with each other. Though one did not have to sacrifice an offering because God has fulfil His prophesy about a saviour that will come (Jesus Christ), the word of God in the OT can't be ignored because it is still God's words. His word never changes (Isaiah 40:8, Psalm 119:89, James 1:17), the most basic example is the ten commandments, even to this very day the ten commandments can still be applied in our daily life.
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Re: God's immutability: OT vs. NT God, the same?

Post by Sculptor »

cicero117 wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:13 pm
Sculptor wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:59 pm
But there are also inconsistencies within the OT and within the NT
Can you prove this statement? Because as far as I know, the OT and the NT is harmonious with each other.
LOL
They are not even harmonious with themselves let alone with each other.

I common with most god botherers you have failed to read critically.
Where would you like me to start with the contradictions?
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Harbal
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Re: God's immutability: OT vs. NT God, the same?

Post by Harbal »

cicero117 wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:36 am
But I can't explain how God's character is so different, how He is so intolerant in the OT and so tolerant in the NT.
I guess most of us mellow with age.
cicero117 wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:36 am In the OT, God chooses Israelites to be his chosen people and condemn other nations
I imagine the Israelites got that special privilege from God in return for inventing him.
gaffo
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Re: God's immutability: OT vs. NT God, the same?

Post by gaffo »

cicero117 wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:36 am SoI was comparing the OT and NT. I knew that God's character is different,
they are different only if you ignore the Minor Prophets works - which are also in the OT.

if you take their work into account, YHWH has the same character is the NT God.

cicero117 wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:36 am in OT he was really harsh to mankind, for example, His chosen people was the Israelites and all other nation cannot receive salvation.
only in the torah, Amos is clear in his work, he states that "being God chosen (the Jews) is a responibility to the rest of mankind, and if they fail in the responsibility, God will choose another People (the Etheopians according to Amos).


cicero117 wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:36 am In the NT, Jesus was depicted as forgiving, teaches us to be kind to everyone and spread his words.
same with the Minor Prophets works in the OT, same message.

cicero117 wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:36 am In a way I already the answer which is that the NT God is the fulfilment of the prophecy of the OT.
really? i doubt Amos nor the authors of Job and Jonah would affirm the concept of a man become God - instead as Jews i would assume that would be heresy.

cicero117 wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:36 am The OT and the NT also didn't contradict themselves because there are a lot of verses with the same interpretation
both the NT and OT are full of contradictions, since both were written by 30 different men over centuries of time.

for example in the OT its is stated that God destroyed Soddam and Gamora , then in another work if the OT it is claimed that Satan did.

ok, if no contradiction, then God must be Satan!

lol.


- ok maybe not lol, maybe they are one, i'm just a dumb atheist.





cicero117 wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:36 am Another controversial question,
In the OT, God chooses Israelites to be his chosen people and condemn other nations
until you read Amos and Jermiah, then you see they are calling out the Jews is failing, and so their God leaving them - to go to another people (in Jeramiah's case - smiting them via the Babylonians - to teach them Humlity via travial). Amos' view is more "i wash my hand of thee" and choose another people as mine.

cicero117 wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:36 am In the NT, salvation is given for everyone who chose to believe in Jesus
yep, that i my understanding.

cicero117 wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:36 am It can be argued that God choses Israel as His chosen people to be the "predecessor" of Jesus and because of that, they should be a nation that trusts in the Lord and do His will to "prepare" for Jesus's coming.
yes that is the mentality of both the OT and NT, but as i said before, via the minor prophets of the OT being chosen is not a privalage, but a responsibility, and will be REMOVED from the Jews if they do not repent of their ways ("Cows of Basham") - reference to Amos about high born Jewish women of self interest.

cicero117 wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:36 am But what about other nations, aliens living with Israelites, do they also receive salvation?
Per Amos they do if they act better than the Jews. and so become YHWH's chosen people.



cicero117 wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:36 am Because in the OT, you need to be the descendant of Abraham,
per the Torah, but not per the Minor Propeths! - both are part of the OT.


cicero117 wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:36 am Jesus haven't died on the cross to redeem all of us.

thoughts?
refer to above, good post BTW.
gaffo
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Re: God's immutability: OT vs. NT God, the same?

Post by gaffo »

cicero117 wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:13 pm
scupture said the below.


But there are also inconsistencies within the OT and within the NT
cicero117 wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:13 pm

Can you prove this statement? Because as far as I know, the OT and the NT is harmonious with each other.
Satan destroyed Sodam and Gamorra, no YHWH did.

Zarababel - the "great white hope of the Jews" and direct decendant of Hezakia, (the former was freed by Darius to return to Judia after the former persian king destryed the babylonians that took the jews into bondage for 70 years). one work say Zar was "so and so's (I forget the guys name - sorry) is his son, another work says he is his grandson (which is it? - you can make it one and the same if you include incest, but i personally prefer to assume one work is just wrong on this particualar.

"Iddo" just remembered, i think was his name.




per the NT, Jesus was killed on a Saturday, no a Sunday. John is a day off verse the other Synopics.

--

cicero117 wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:13 pm Though one did not have to sacrifice an offering because God has fulfil His prophesy about a saviour that will come (Jesus Christ),
that is your view as a christian, not the jewish one, they deny your Christ as the messiah, you do understand this yes?


cicero117 wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:13 pm the word of God in the OT can't be ignored because it is still God's words. His word never changes (Isaiah 40:8, Psalm 119:89, James 1:17), the most basic example is the ten commandments, even to this very day the ten commandments can still be applied in our daily life.
of course "Gods word" changes, due to the time. place and author of the book about him.


and why we have hundreds of contradictions in both the NT and OT. and all the other Religious texts - western and eastern. all product of mortal men with personal bias and local cultural viewpoints.
cicero117
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Re: God's immutability: OT vs. NT God, the same?

Post by cicero117 »

gaffo wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:44 am

per the NT, Jesus was killed on a Saturday, no a Sunday. John is a day off verse the other Synopics.
Actually according to the bible, Jesus died on Friday not on Saturday. He died before nightfall, it is as Jesus said to the good thief that "today you will be with me in paradise".

Matt 27: 62 "The next day, on the Sabbath, the leading priests and Pharisees went to see Pilate."

Mark 15:42-42 " It was Preparation Day (that is, the day before the Sabbath). So as evening approached, Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent member of the Council, who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God, went boldly to Pilate and asked for Jesus’ body. "

Luke 23:54 "54 It was Friday, and the Sabbath was about to begin."

John 19: 31 " Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down. "

cicero117 wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:13 pm the word of God in the OT can't be ignored because it is still God's words. His word never changes (Isaiah 40:8, Psalm 119:89, James 1:17), the most basic example is the ten commandments, even to this very day the ten commandments can still be applied in our daily life.
of course "Gods word" changes, due to the time. place and author of the book about him.


and why we have hundreds of contradictions in both the NT and OT. and all the other Religious texts - western and eastern. all product of mortal men with personal bias and local cultural viewpoints.
[/quote]

God word doesn't change because it's absolute.

What you have stated as a "prove" that the NT contradicts the OT is wrong, I did not understand your point when you mention that God was the one who destroyed Sodom and Gommora and regarding Zerubabel. You can point out other facts to me in which you think the OT and NT contradicts themselves
PeteJ
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Re: God's immutability: OT vs. NT God, the same?

Post by PeteJ »

cicero117 wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:36 am But I can't explain how God's character is so different, how He is so intolerant in the OT and so tolerant in the NT.
The NT teachings of Jesus corrected lots of errors. The NT God as interpreted by the Church is an anthropomorphised mistake, but at least not so much of one as the OT God, and at least God is a bit friendlier.

The trick would be to see that the God of the monotheistic churches is not what Jesus was talking about. He speaks of a much subtler and more sophisticated phenomenon.

I would recommend the sermons of Meister Eckhart for an authoritative discussion of God.
gaffo
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Re: God's immutability: OT vs. NT God, the same?

Post by gaffo »

cicero117 wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 1:38 am
gaffo wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:44 am

per the NT, Jesus was killed on a Saturday, no a Sunday. John is a day off verse the other Synopics.
Actually according to the bible, Jesus died on Friday not on Saturday. He died before nightfall, it is as Jesus said to the good thief that "today you will be with me in paradise".

Matt 27: 62 "The next day, on the Sabbath, the leading priests and Pharisees went to see Pilate."

Mark 15:42-42 " It was Preparation Day (that is, the day before the Sabbath). So as evening approached, Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent member of the Council, who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God, went boldly to Pilate and asked for Jesus’ body. "

Luke 23:54 "54 It was Friday, and the Sabbath was about to begin."

John 19: 31 " Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down. "

cicero117 wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:13 pm the word of God in the OT can't be ignored because it is still God's words. His word never changes (Isaiah 40:8, Psalm 119:89, James 1:17), the most basic example is the ten commandments, even to this very day the ten commandments can still be applied in our daily life.
of course "Gods word" changes, due to the time. place and author of the book about him.



and why we have hundreds of contradictions in both the NT and OT. and all the other Religious texts - western and eastern. all product of mortal men with personal bias and local cultural viewpoints.
God word doesn't change because it's absolute.

What you have stated as a "prove" that the NT contradicts the OT is wrong, I did not understand your point when you mention that God was the one who destroyed Sodom and Gommora and regarding Zerubabel. You can point out other facts to me in which you think the OT and NT contradicts themselves
[/quote]


those were the only ones i remember from my reading of those works 30 yrs ago. i cannot offer more, and my memory is poor.

sorry.


thanks for reply though.
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