We're talking about the law of identity. For that, the mathematics don't even matter. They're an analogy, not a literal demonstration. Logic symbols are not mathematical symbols.
Hope that clears that up.
False, the syllogisms presented still are composed of assertions which are true. If I say "the water is wet, and the wetness reflects water present, therefore the water is wet" the assertion of the " "water is wet" is still reflected as a truth value. All contradictions are grounded in truth values thus composed of them.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:34 pmCircularity only produces a fallacy if it is offered as the basis of a syllogism or argument, as you have done.
Circularity, as a phenomenon, produces a truth...but only a trivial or recursive one.
That's the right way to understand it.
P=P and 1=1 both reflect a common bond through the equals sign. Logic and math can transition to eachother.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:32 amWe're talking about the law of identity. For that, the mathematics don't even matter. They're an analogy, not a literal demonstration. Logic symbols are not mathematical symbols.
Hope that clears that up.
Not even remotely. I linked the Wiki page defining the word tautology. The fact is that most tautologies are profound surprises. They're only tautologies after the fact. If you want to say that the law of identity confers no information, that's very different than saying that a tautology doesn't. But you'd be wrong there too. If the law of identity confers no information, why is it regarded as one of the basic laws of logic? After all, "The sky is blue" is not a basic law of logic. I think you are flat out wrong.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:32 am
We're talking about the law of identity. For that, the mathematics don't even matter. They're an analogy, not a literal demonstration. Logic symbols are not mathematical symbols.
Hope that clears that up.
False a contradiction shows an absence of form through the opposition of phenomena having the inability to connect. This same formlessness is founded in circularity given it is an empty loop. The loop only have value when defined through another loop. A new assertion is what justifies the original assertion by providing definition but with circularity no knew assertion is formed.raw_thought wrote: ↑Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:36 am P=P is a tautology not a contradiction. Tautologies are always true and so say nothing. Contradictions are the opposite. They are always false. For example suppose I say, " It will rain today or it wont." True in all cases and tells me nothing about the weather.
If "Arab" has no commonalities then what does it point to?Sculptor wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:34 pmAbsolutely NOT.Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:52 pmYet "Arab" necessitates a common underlying region.Sculptor wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:34 am
No all those things are also unique. Just because you have no interest in the difference does not change the fact that they all occupy distinctly different places in space/time, and that each hairs is comprised of a difference number of molecules.
To a higher being, maybe cat and dog are the same thing - just part of the biological scum on an otherwise pristine planet.
All things are unique. Lack of uniqueness is about degrees of interest and the ability to ignore differences. It is a human trait. "All Arabs are the same".
You didn't even read the thread.
hmmm...I'm starting to think you have not the foggiest clue what the "law of identity" is."The sky is blue" is not a basic law of logic. I think you are flat out wrong.
Your phrases don't even make sense.
Learn to read or go away.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:05 amYour phrases don't even make sense.
You don't have anyone doing the "presenting" here, you're not referring to any specific "syllogisms," so Lord only knows why you use the definite article "the," and you don't know that anything is "true" merely because an unarmed entity "asserts" it.
Use grammar, or go away.
I agree that I'm not following the thread. I'm only commenting on this completely false statement that you made:
Do you have a cat? Sometimes cats walk across the keyboard and type things in on their own. I see this happen all the time, when people on discussion forums deny their own direct quotes.
I know exactly what it is. And you don't know what a tautology is.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:03 am hmmm...I'm starting to think you have not the foggiest clue what the "law of identity" is.
I'll retract the sky is blue remark if that will help you to focus on what I'm saying to you.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:03 am The law of identity would only say that if you start a pattern of formal argument with "sky" meaning a particular thing, then "sky" must remain that same thing throughout the entire operation, in order for it to produce any valid logic or sound conclusion.
I fail to follow your argument. Please comment on the one quote I'm objecting two, which expands into the valid but UNSOUND syllogism whose premise I just falsified.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:03 am In maths, this would mean that the value "X" would have to remain whatever specific value it represented in the first line when you reached the third or fifth line. If you had X equalling 6 in line one, it can't turn into 1,002 in line four, or the equation would be ruined, and yield no reliable or informative result.
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:03 am Essentially, that's all the law of identity is saying.
No.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:09 pmThat depends. If the sign on the far side of an equals sign is exactly the same as that on the near one, then it's merely about identity.
Of course, and it is the only way that an equals sign can be used. But since there is nothing which is a "five" in the world, then it is only useful for mathematical abstractions, and of little use to real things.
Essentially, it's saying "a five is a five." Which might be trivial, but is also true.
What's your point?
But since we're talking about the law of identity, an "equals" sign is not involved at all. What's involved is the question of the identity of ONE THING. The law simply says it must remain stable. That's all.
I said it did not point to a region.
"A tautology is certainly true, a proposition possibly, and a contradiction certainly not."Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:55 amFalse a contradiction shows an absence of form through the opposition of phenomena having the inability to connect. This same formlessness is founded in circularity given it is an empty loop. The loop only have value when defined through another loop. A new assertion is what justifies the original assertion by providing definition but with circularity no knew assertion is formed.raw_thought wrote: ↑Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:36 am P=P is a tautology not a contradiction. Tautologies are always true and so say nothing. Contradictions are the opposite. They are always false. For example suppose I say, " It will rain today or it wont." True in all cases and tells me nothing about the weather.
Second all contradictions are grounded in truth values. 2+2=5 shows the elements of 2 and 5 as existing as true given they occur through 1 repeating thus a form results. This second element shows circularity as having an intrinsic form through the repetition of a phenomenon.
Thus circularity is both a contradiction and not a contradiction. It is not a contradiction given a form results, it results in contradiction because the form is empty.
You have actually identified the mistake. "quirk is quirk," is correct, "quirk = quirk," would be wrong. It is actually incorrect to say B=B except in algebra, where B is a symbol for a number, because equals means, "has the same value." In all other cases it should be, B is B, which only means B is itself, and not anything else. A thing does not "equal" itself, it just "is" itself. Saying a thing, X "equals" (has the same value as) a thing X implies, illogically, that X is more than one thing, which is where Eodnhoj7 went wrong.henry quirk wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:32 pmso, if I say I am me (and no other), that is, quirk is quirk, my self-reference (circular reasoning) is contradictory and -- in fact -- I am not meEodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:24 pmBecause of circular reasoning, the beginning is the same as the end. It is arguing identity is a loop which contradicts the standard fallacies.henry quirk wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:03 pm P=P
how is a thing is identical with itself contradictory?
ok, then...