Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2020 3:30 am
gaffo wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:11 am
as i hope you do via me.
Hey, you and I are good. I like you plenty. So don't worry about that..
good i welcome the discussion (still think you assume too much about what Atheism is (its just a rejection in a belief in any Gods - nothing more, its not a philosphy) - your view also is "group think" (which i see too much here on the forum - visa via "christians are" "leftists are" consevatives are" - ya there my be trends - so present your view of the "Trend" of the Athiest perspective generally - and i'm fine with you seeing a trend. but i see you seeing more a rule than a trend, and so negating the individual outsider who is an Athiest/leftist/conservative/etc who is just as valid of cone of those things, but not part of your assumed generalized rule.
i.e. of you see a general trend as such and some of us not within that stereotype, to not insult us and claim we do not exist and/or are not true Athiests/leftist/conservatives...etc just because we sit outside of the general thesis.
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Aug 30, 2020 2:20 pm
A thoughtful Atheist might possibly know more about Christianity than an unthinking Christian.
I think some do, myself included.[/quote]
That would be great.[/quote]
I agree, however the inverse i'd welcome, and i've not seen if from most Christians - including you.
Atheists are disparaged, that is a fact - even in 2020.
as are single folks
just look at who is elected to congress/presidency.
one pres, Buchanon - in 240 yrs one of 50 or so that was not married.
no Atheists as yet have been (though i know prob 30 or so were privately - but stayed in the athiest closet to get elected prez).
ask yourself this: why did they have to be closeted atheists if being that was not disparaged by the general electorate.
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Aug 30, 2020 2:20 pm
-----you do know about the result of Blue Star a year later, yes?
No, I'll have to brush up on that. I do know about the bombing, though.
do that - 280? or so died on the plane (exploded over Cork Ireland -at 35000 feet - at least one person was alive - falling for 5 minutes to his death upon impact with the ocean - had see water in his lungs, so did not die immediately upon hitting the ocean, but in effect drowned - but hitting water at 120 mph is the same as hitting concrete, so he would have died from blunt force even if drowning (i've sure unconcious from the lack of o2/and/or the impact) was removed as the cause of death.
30-50 died a yr earlier during the seige of the Golden Temple - on both side, including women and other non-compatants. collatoral damage.
----so ya read up on it, if just to honour their memory.
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Aug 30, 2020 2:20 pm
And likewise, somebody who's thought carefully about Atheism is sure to know more about it than an Atheist who has simply taken it for granted as true, and never really thought about what it means at all.
sure, and BTW i know much - more then even some (most?)Believers of your faith.[/quote]
I don't know. I guess we'll see. [/quote]
most atheists hate your religion - and at the same time love all the others like islam.buddism.himduism - prob a distortion of mine from the American perspective - if i were an indian living in india, (and this forum was based im Mumbi ) i'd suspect most of the Athiests would be hating on Hinduism.
likewise - it this forum were Saudi (and as i said may times before 1/5 Saudis are either Athiests or agnostics per Allah as God) - sadly Saudi Arabia is a thuggish regime and so i've no doubt that there are 1/5 of then outs there we will not hear it - nor should we, since the second we do they are jailed (at least) for a decade at least.
I'm an Athiest, and do not hate your religion - nor any of the other religions - why most do, no clue, but that is not me. take it up with them.
in fact - as iv'e said many times - find value in most of it.
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Aug 30, 2020 2:20 pm
You'd have to know a lot to know more than some of the folks I know, though.
I know quite a bit - esp Judaism. as you well know, i started at least 3 thread on the subject over the last 3 yrs and got almost no replies.
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Aug 30, 2020 2:20 pm
But I do not believe one can be consistent and both deny Materialism and affirm Atheism.
i see no link, why do you?
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Aug 30, 2020 2:20 pm
If Materialism is not true, then Atheism is logically not sound.
??
as i stated i'm a Solipsist, that means my mind is all of knowable reality - and so not material.
and i know empirically "you" (I) cannot prove God exists via my reality - my conciousness.
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Aug 30, 2020 2:20 pm
That means a person can disbelieve Materialism and believe Atheism only by being illogical.
I fail to understand.
I use logic to know that Truth is I Am - Solipsism - this is via logical thinking.
logic thinking does not prove no God - only a lack of evidence shows a lack of a god/s in this reality.
I view your God as existing a likely as you existing, i take the latter on faith for my sanity - but logical thinking does not prove you exist nor your god. empircism only offer that i exist, nothing more.
to function a a same person i assume you exist/and all others via faith - for my sanities sake - and so emotionally i affirm your existance - intellectually i do not.
God being or not being - is an order of magintude less important to me than your existance as Solipsist striving to function in my reality.
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Aug 30, 2020 2:20 pm
The two cannot be had together...not and being rational as well.
??
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Aug 30, 2020 2:20 pm
I'm making a point. Atheism can only be rationalized if Materialism is absolutely true.
your point is bullshit, there is no link, as i stated i am an athiest and at the same time not a materialist.
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Aug 30, 2020 2:20 pm
there always remains the possibility of a God or gods, and no rational person could any longer deny that.
all things are possible, but i only care about what is provable.
and that is "I am" right now.
nothing more.
sure 1000 angels may be dancing on pinheads, cows jumping over the moon, etc.............but all is conjecture and not provable via deductive reasoning..
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Aug 30, 2020 2:20 pm
Because God made me, and I didn't make God.
how do i know that?
from my perspective it is equally likely that i made both you and your god, and i'm now just talking to myself/arguing with myself - playing some weird game of multiple personalities with myself.
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Aug 30, 2020 2:20 pm
I'm a contingent being, and He's an eternal one.
yes, and you "wear a loud tie" ..to prove you exist.
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Aug 30, 2020 2:20 pm
So maybe you want to think about that...and maybe you don't. It depends on how you took on your own Atheism.
I became in Atheist in 1978 (i was 12)[/quote]
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Aug 30, 2020 2:20 pm
That's interesting. Richard Dawkins admits to converting to Atheism when he was 17.
I never liked Dawkins nor Hitchens. they are not thinkers - well one is now dead, but still...
I liked Carus more - been dead for 140 yrs, not sure if he was an Atheist or not, nor care.
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Aug 30, 2020 2:20 pm
And I've heard other Atheists say the same, that they came to it as young...mostly boys.
There are studies of such things. And it seems that Atheism is rather an adolescent affection, rather than something people tend, for the most part, to take on in earlier or later life.
the timeline adolecence is true, but would not read more into that that.
fact is there are 2 types of Athiests:
1. the Silent Majority - like my Saudi Brothers - we were born into a family without faith, and just had "Faith" via our general culture" and when old enough just outgrew the social programming since our parents are not part of that programming.
For instance me - neither of my parents were ever Christians (both agnostic since they were kids in the 1940s (why because via my dad both of his parents were agnostic since the 1920's - and per my mom, only her mom was a Christian (and nominally at best)
and so in 1975 as a 9 yr old i remember reading my grandmother bible - genesis, and noted the "open eyes and become one of
US" and "
WE" i rem thinking who is we/us? if there is only one God?
that started my path to my damnation to burn in hell forever as a non-beliver.
i know now that Genesis was a Summarian/Akkadian work and the we/us is the Cananite Panteon of the Polytheicis Gods of thier religion - of course i did not know that back then, but knew somehting was "fishy" as that small kid.
2. the minoriy of Athiests are loud mouthed "child abused" fundies - crying about thier mean parents that made them go to a pentocost/independant baptist revival - and reject their religion out of anger toward parents. they either end up killing themselves, or going back to thier original religion eventually.
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Aug 30, 2020 2:20 pm
Jesus said, "By their fruits you shall know them," meaning, "By what people do, you shall know whether they're God's or not."
yes, i always like your Jesus, too bad Saul took your religion over, and said Faith and not works is all that matter (so Ghandi and I burn in hell forever for not beleiving in the proper God, and the good works we do do not give us repreive from eternal danmantion and torment in the belly of hell.
James wrote a book to support Jesus and even stated it plainly - Fatih without works is dead - but sadly the Book of James is more dead than alive compared to Saul's letters.
good effort James the Just and brother of Jesus, you tried - as did your brother Jude, but Saul took over your religion and today we only have Paulists. sorry guys. ;-/.
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Aug 30, 2020 2:20 pm
The answer is clear.
yes it is - i burn forever - due to not affirming the correct God of the many Gods - regardless of any or all good deads i do in the life.
i go to Hell forever, the end.
so be it.