Grandaddy's Gun

[henry quirk]

No. I did NOT mean that at all.

then what did you mean?


Well this explains the reason why you BELIEVE you can take orbsteal from "others", and then call it "yours".

what have I taken or stolen?


And, would I be correct if I said that you believe that you are one of the, so called, "good" ones?

yep


But if they say that they own their guns for defense, then they are on the EXACT SAME"page" as you, correct?

The guys who broke into my house weren't defending, they were offending, so -- no -- we're not on the same page


But this NOT what I have been told.

what have you been told?


And, if you claim you are not some bitch, then are you a son of a bitch?

no, I'm a good egg.


'Yours', which has already been taken, correct?

no, paid for or made by me.


You also do not accept responsibility for the crimes that you do commit but which you are not yet aware of, correct?

anyone wantin' to step up with an accusation against me ought to (and be prepared to back the accusation up with evidence).


So, in this supposed "free society", that one, which you say, "is mine", they can only do what 'you' ALLOW them to do, correct? Or, do that have complete freedom?

I never said a free society is mine. I'm a free man livin' among other free people: that's the free society. and as I say upthread: freedom is self-direction and self-responsibility. I don't tell others what to do and others don't tell me what to do.


So, that society, which you find your 'self' in is then definitely NOT a free society, under that description of yours here, correct?

I'm free, I can self-defend, so: seems like a free society to me.


But if the conquers have bigger guns, then obviously guns, which are smaller, have already been proven to NOT work in keeping "others" from conquering.

never said guns guarantee success in self-defense. and: it ain't the size of the gun that matters.


This is because of DENIAL, itself, which you are proving is very deeply imbedded in the human psyche.

no, it's just an unfortunate and completely natural aspect of human nature, an aspect you apparently deny.


Also, just because something has not yet happened, up until a certain date, this in NO way means nor infers that it cannot not happen.

never said it couldn't happen, only that it hasn't.


No.

then what are you sayin'?


Of 'what', exactly?

of whatever it is you think I am.

[Nick_A]

“If Mr. Gandhi can protect his sister from rape through non-violent means, then I will be a pacifist.” Simone Weil

Simone was a young atheist, pacifist, and marxist until she saw the light. For all those who disagree that a gun is also a respected symbol of the family willing to protect itself, tell me how Mr. Gandhi can protect his sister from rape through non-violent means. I don't see how it is possible. If it isn't, self defense as opposed to bullying is an admirable characteristic for a granddaddy to teach his grandson.

[henry quirk]

“If Mr. Gandhi can protect his sister from rape through non-violent means, then I will be a pacifist.” Simone Weil

Simone was a young atheist, pacifist, and marxist until she saw the light. For all those who disagree that a gun is also a respected symbol of the family willing to protect itself, tell me how Mr. Gandhi can protect his sister from rape through non-violent means. I don't see how it is possible. If it isn't, self defense as opposed to bullying is an admirable characteristic for a granddaddy to teach his grandson.

jan, weighin' in at just over 100 pounds, is facin' down jack (the fella who just broke into her home) who weighs in at 250 pounds

without a means to self-defend: jan is at jack's mercy (he has none, so jan can expect to be sodomized, brutalized, then murdered)

with a means of self-defense: jan might save herself from abuse & death

[Nick_A]

Just thinking. In Chicago kids are shooting and killing other kids everyday. What if they had a father and a grandaddy to to show what the mounted gun on the wall really means.

You may say that is what education is all about and the progressive experts in education teach. The father has become old fashioned and replaced by the government. Who am I to question progress? It isn't my fault that i missed out on a progressive education. But somehow fatherless kids killing other kids with drugs as the reward seems sadly lacking but admiring grandaddy's gun which protected the home still makes more sense to this misguided soul

[Age]

No. I did NOT mean that at all.

then what did you mean?

I meant what I actually said, that is; guns have obviously ALREADY been proven to NOT work against "kings" and "commies".

If there are still "kings" and "commies" ruling over "others", then, obviously, guns have ALREADY been PROVEN to NOT work against those "kings" and "commies".
There are still "kings" and "commies" ruling over "others".
Therefore, this is EVIDENCE and PROOF that guns do NOT work to secure and keep societies free from "kings" and "commies".

By the way, "kings" and "commies" usually use guns, (ridicule, and/or threats of punishment), to secure and keep societies NOT 'free', and keep them under the rule and control of said "kings" and "commies".

Besides the fact that there are NO actual true 'free societies' anyway, contrary to your claim that "guns will supposedly or probably secure and keep these imagined "free societies" from "kings" and "commies", it is actually 'guns', themselves, which are used to keep societies under rule AND control, and thus NOT 'free'.
Therefore, it might be argued that guns, themselves, are one of the very reasons of WHY societies are NOT 'free' at all.

If, however, you BELIEVE that the society that you live in is a 'free society', then that is your BELIEF and NOT necessarily what is true.

Well this explains the reason why you BELIEVE you can take orbsteal from "others", and then call it "yours".

what have I taken or stolen?

The land and/or resources, which you say is "yours", or "mine".

And, would I be correct if I said that you believe that you are one of the, so called, "good" ones?

yep

It never ceases to amaze me just how many of 'you' actually BELIEVE this to be true.

From a planet where just about EVERY human being BELIEVES that they are the, so called, "good" ones, then, considering the amount of actual harm, damage, and destruction, which is being actually caused by those human beings who DO WRONG, then it is amazing just how ALL of that harm, damage, and destruction MUST BE being caused by those relatively very small few who admit that they are the ones DOING THE WRONG.

Obviously the, so called, "good" ones do NOT do WRONG, so only "others" could therefore be doing the WRONG.

But if they say that they own their guns for defense, then they are on the EXACT SAME"page" as you, correct?

The guys who broke into my house weren't defending, they were offending, so -- no -- we're not on the same page

But you are NOT answering my question, which is; If they say that they own their guns for defense, then they are on the EXACT SAME "page" as you, correct?

You are JUST 'trying to' "defend", or "justify", for having and using guns.

EVERY one can 'try to' "justify" owning, and using, a gun by JUST SAYING, "I own my gun for defense", just like you 'try to' "justify" your ownership of a gun/s.

But this NOT what I have been told.

what have you been told?

And, if you claim you are not some bitch, then are you a son of a bitch?

no, I'm a good egg.

So, are all of the sons of the, so called, "bitches" NOT 'good eggs', correct?

And, if this is correct, then that would mean that your mom is NOT a, so called, "bitch", right?

Also, how do you actually differentiate between the, so called, "good" ones from the, so called, "not good" ones?

And, how many people would actually be in agreement with your own differentiation?

'Yours', which has already been taken, correct?

no, paid for or made by me.


You also do not accept responsibility for the crimes that you do commit but which you are not yet aware of, correct?

anyone wantin' to step up with an accusation against me ought to (and be prepared to back the accusation up with evidence).

Great advice. But WHY only in regards to 'you'? WHY NOT in regards to ANY and ALL accusations?

So, in this supposed "free society", that one, which you say, "is mine", they can only do what 'you' ALLOW them to do, correct? Or, do that have complete freedom?

I never said a free society is mine.

I must of written that clumsily, as you have clearly misunderstood me.

You said that that 'your' 14 year old is "yours", or "mine". I was asking are they ALLOWED to do whatever they like? Or, can they only do what you ALLOW them to do?

I'm a free man livin' among other free people: that's the free society. and as I say upthread: freedom is self-direction and self-responsibility. I don't tell others what to do and others don't tell me what to do.

But you are being told what to do every day of your life. Otherwise you would NOT be doing most of what it is that you do.

So, that society, which you find your 'self' in is then definitely NOT a free society, under that description of yours here, correct?

I'm free, I can self-defend, so: seems like a free society to me.

Ah okay. This explains things better, and thus more fully.

Also, you can NOT self-defend against those who actually do make a slave state, as can be CLEARLY SEEN, EVIDENCED, and PROVEN.

But if the conquers have bigger guns, then obviously guns, which are smaller, have already been proven to NOT work in keeping "others" from conquering.

never said guns guarantee success in self-defense. and: it ain't the size of the gun that matters.

Okay.

Things are now seemingly to turn around finally, although extremely, very slowly.

This is because of DENIAL, itself, which you are proving is very deeply imbedded in the human psyche.

no, it's just an unfortunate and completely natural aspect of human nature, an aspect you apparently deny.

What is this 'aspect' of human nature, EXACTLY, which you perceive or believe I am apparently denying?

Also, just because something has not yet happened, up until a certain date, this in NO way means nor infers that it cannot not happen.

never said it couldn't happen, only that it hasn't.

So, the very reason WHY you have not stopped wanting to conquer over "others" is because of 'you', correct?

No.

then what are you sayin'?

I would not be so sure, of what you say you are not.

Of 'what', exactly?

of whatever it is you think I am.

But I do NOT 'think' what 'I' am. I KNOW what 'I' am. And, I KNOW what 'you' ARE, by the way.

[henry quirk]

Just thinking. In Chicago kids are shooting and killing other kids everyday. What if they had a father and a grandaddy to to show what the mounted gun on the wall really means.

You may say that is what education is all about and the progressive experts in education teach. The father has become old fashioned and replaced by the government. Who am I to question progress? It isn't my fault that i missed out on a progressive education. But somehow fatherless kids killing other kids with drugs as the reward seems sadly lacking but admiring grandaddy's gun which protected the home still makes more sense to this misguided soul

goin' out on a limb...

I believe each of us has a moral compass (conscience, moral sense, moral intuition, a gut)

recognizin' that compass, bein' able to point true north with it, is a tricky thing cuz right along side that compass is free will

free will degraded to license obscures the compass (and the compass taken as law instead of guide can obscure free will)

in this context: dad or granddad isn't so much teacher as clearer of the way

he helps junior recognize the compass inside and helps him keep it balanced against his capacity to choose

it's the on-going lesson of sure, you can do that, but should you do that

[henry quirk]

If there are still "kings" and "commies" ruling over "others", then, obviously, guns have ALREADY been PROVEN to NOT work against those "kings" and "commies".

never said gun use is the end of all tyranny

bein' free (self-directin', self-responsibility) and safeguardin' freedom against tyrannts is on-goin' thing

tyrannts, (actual and would be) are like roaches: kill one, there's ten more in the shadows waitin' to take its place


Besides the fact that there are NO actual true 'free societies' anyway,

a society is just folks livin' in proximity to one another: workin', tradin', transactin', livin', etc.

freedom is just self-direction & self-responsibility

so: a free society is just folks who self-direct and who are self-responsible

viewed that way: I live in a free society, and you probably do too


The land and/or resources, which you say is "yours", or "mine".

as I say: what's mine (my property) I got through transaction or self-production

I didn't steal any of it


DOING THE WRONG.

not everyone does wrong

do you?

why not?


But you are NOT answering my question, which is; If they say that they own their guns for defense, then they are on the EXACT SAME "page" as you, correct?

I did answer: they don't defend with firearms, they offend, so -- no -- we're not on the same page


You are JUST 'trying to' "defend", or "justify", for having and using guns.

no, I'm explaining, not justifying


So, are all of the sons of the, so called, "bitches" NOT 'good eggs', correct?

you finally got one right...congrats


And, if this is correct, then that would mean that your mom is NOT a, so called, "bitch", right?

my ma is ditsy, but she's no bitch


Also, how do you actually differentiate between the, so called, "good" ones from the, so called, "not good" ones?

in the context of this thread, this conversation: the not good ones the ones who breaks into someone's home in the middle of the night lookin' to take property that isn't theirs, and the good one is the property owner who, by way of his shotgun, doesn't allow that theft to occur


how many people would actually be in agreement with your own differentiation?

most folks, I suppose, even the bad eggs


WHY NOT in regards to ANY and ALL accusations?

sure, if anyone has accusations (and proof) of wrongdoin' by anyone (say you, for example) they ought to step up and be heard


I was asking are they ALLOWED to do whatever they like?

he does as he chooses within the broad constraints of the morality I teach him, that I myself abide by


But you are being told what to do every day of your life.

oh, I get jibber-jabbered at, like everyone, by all manner of folks lookin' to skew me

I don't pay 'em any mind


Otherwise you would NOT be doing most of what it is that you do.

tell me of all those things I'm doin' that cuz someone told me to


Also, you can NOT self-defend against those who actually do make a slave state, as can be CLEARLY SEEN, EVIDENCED, and PROVEN.

nah, you haven't shown me that, haven't evidenced it

you assert, which is diddly-squat to me


Things are now seemingly to turn around finally, although extremely, very slowly.

nah, there's no turn around; there's just the slow walk forward (for me, anyway...you: I'm truly beginnin' to understand that yiu don't understand, and may not be capable of understandin', anything I written in this thread)


What is this 'aspect' of human nature, EXACTLY, which you perceive or believe I am apparently denying?

right now: I pretty sure you don't understand any aspect of human thinkin' or nature


So, the very reason WHY you have not stopped wanting to conquer over "others" is because of 'you', correct?

what makes you think I wanna conquer anything or anyone?


I KNOW what 'you' ARE, by the way.

no, you don't

[Nick_A]

Henry

I believe each of us has a moral compass (conscience, moral sense, moral intuition, a gut)

recognizin' that compass, bein' able to point true north with it, is a tricky thing cuz right along side that compass is free will

A very important observation. Are we capable of objective conscience and does our free will and indoctrinated morality prevent it? If so, why does it happen?

free will degraded to license obscures the compass (and the compass taken as law instead of guide can obscure free will)

This is the theme of the Evolution of Religion thread. What will it take for a person to open to the experience of conscience? A basic question for Christianity is the relationship between the law and mercy. That IMO is real philosophy. The law insisted not to work on Sunday and Jesus did just that. The law is good and mercy is good. How does a person acquire the wisdom, the quality of free will necessary to reconcile these apparent opposing goods?

in this context: dad or granddad isn't so much teacher as clearer of the way

he helps junior recognize the compass inside and helps him keep it balanced against his capacity to choose

Ideally he does so by example as opposed to the BS and hypocrisy kids learn in school. It would be a benefit of the nuclear family which is why it is opposed.

it's the on-going lesson of sure, you can do that, but should you do that

People who see the problem of the human condition; the influence of remembered objective conscience vs acquired secular indoctrinated morality, have an obligation to keep the question alive in society for those who can experience it regardless of how violently it is opposed.

[henry quirk]

Are we capable of objective conscience and does our free will and indoctrinated morality prevent it? If so, why does it happen?

yes, free will that's skewed clouds the conscience, why it happens is cuz it's easier to enslave a man when his head is a mess


What will it take for a person to open to the experience of conscience?

he has to reclaim his head, his heart: easier said than done

better he should never get sidetracked in the first place

easier to keep than to reclaim


How does a person acquire the wisdom, the quality of free will necessary to reconcile these apparent opposing goods?

seems to me: this is a man's natural state

that's why slavers start early, in the schools


People who see the problem of the human condition; the influence of remembered objective conscience vs acquired secular indoctrinated morality, have an obligation to keep the question alive in society for those who can experience it regardless of how violently it is opposed.

it's war, Nick, plain and simple...and it's heatin' up

[Skepdick]

But are you free to shoot and kill any one or any thing with that gun?

If no, then are you really living in a free society?

I am. Every single day I live I shoot as many people as I want to shoot.

Which is zero.

[Skepdick]

From the Declaration of Independence

https://users.wfu.edu/zulick/340/Declaration.html

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
2.2 That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

I need to defend myself from the declaration of independence? Is just a piece of paper - it can't hurt me.

Freedom does not sustain itself. It is always being threatened by those who do not appreciate its value for all but become fixated with the concept that they are not free enough. Freedom has to be defended and preserved. It takes real men of principles and courage to do so.

Nothing sustains itself. Not sure what your point is?

My point is that for as long as you think stuff needs "defending" you aren't free.

I want to be free from having to defend freedom all the time. What now?

Greed, pride, and jealousy will always oppose freedom. The man who knows how to defend his family in the cause of freedom is not PC but still essential if freedom is possible for a society anymore. I can see why grandaddy's gun was loved by the grandson. It represented the potential to express the love for freedom rather than a governmental conditioned response to statist slavery.

So you are free to start a civil war - great.

For as long as we risk civil wars - we aren't free.

[RickLewis]

The chorus:

"A gun's like a woman, son, it's all how you hold her."

Sigmund! Git over here right now - Nick needs to hear from you.

[Nick_A]

Are we capable of objective conscience and does our free will and indoctrinated morality prevent it? If so, why does it happen?

yes, free will that's skewed clouds the conscience, why it happens is cuz it's easier to enslave a man when his head is a mess


What will it take for a person to open to the experience of conscience?

he has to reclaim his head, his heart: easier said than done

better he should never get sidetracked in the first place

easier to keep than to reclaim


How does a person acquire the wisdom, the quality of free will necessary to reconcile these apparent opposing goods?

seems to me: this is a man's natural state

that's why slavers start early, in the schools


People who see the problem of the human condition; the influence of remembered objective conscience vs acquired secular indoctrinated morality, have an obligation to keep the question alive in society for those who can experience it regardless of how violently it is opposed.

it's war, Nick, plain and simple...and it's heatin' up

Henry you write that Man must regain his head and heart but also suggest that this imbalance between what Plato called the Tripartitie soul (head, heart, appetites) is Man's natural state.

If true, the only purpose of ethics and religion is to indoctrinate a secular point of view. If the absurd condition of the tripartite soul is an unnatural result, then Plato's idea of remembering what has been forgotten or anamnesis makes perfect sense. If the head and its access to consciousness should be dominant while the emotions of the heart serve the desires of the head and the body is the tool to get hings done, we can see how we've become the opposite and live upside down led by appetites.

The normal worldly fight is over preferred indoctrinations but if Plato is right, the real problem is how to become normal in an absurd world and live right side up? It has become an insulting and intolerable idea.

[Nick_A]

From the Declaration of Independence

https://users.wfu.edu/zulick/340/Declaration.html

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
2.2 That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

I need to defend myself from the declaration of independence? Is just a piece of paper - it can't hurt me.

Freedom does not sustain itself. It is always being threatened by those who do not appreciate its value for all but become fixated with the concept that they are not free enough. Freedom has to be defended and preserved. It takes real men of principles and courage to do so.

Nothing sustains itself. Not sure what your point is?

My point is that for as long as you think stuff needs "defending" you aren't free.

I want to be free from having to defend freedom all the time. What now?

Greed, pride, and jealousy will always oppose freedom. The man who knows how to defend his family in the cause of freedom is not PC but still essential if freedom is possible for a society anymore. I can see why grandaddy's gun was loved by the grandson. It represented the potential to express the love for freedom rather than a governmental conditioned response to statist slavery.

So you are free to start a civil war - great.

For as long as we risk civil wars - we aren't free.

Freedom isn't something we have but rather strive towards. There are two freedoms The first is to strive for freedom in ones inner life. The idea is to become master of oneself.

But we also know that our lives are governed by negative emotions like fear, anger, disgust, envy, annoyance, and a whole hos of others. Obviously we are not consciously free since we support negative emotions so are not master of oneself.

Can our outer lives be free from disease and aging for example? No, and if we cannot, all we can do is value freedom and support the qualities necessary to strive to be free and support others needing to do the same.

It is natural to associate the idea of freedom with the expression of negative emotions. Who remembers what freedom is or what is required to protect an idea continually threatened through ignorance?

“Nothing is more wonderful than the art of being free, but nothing is harder to learn how to use than freedom.”
― Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America

[Nick_A]

The chorus:

"A gun's like a woman, son, it's all how you hold her."

Sigmund! Git over here right now - Nick needs to hear from you.

Bring em on Rick. I'll show him what he can do with his cigar