Is morality objective or subjective?
- henry quirk
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Re: RC
"hate crimes,"
thought crimes
doesn't one have to be a mind-reader to tell the difference?
not really
jan aborts cuz she doesn't want the baby (she murders)
betty aborts cuz she'll die if she doesn't (she kills)
For the record, a human being, like all other organisms, begins when its life is independent of any other organism, biologically. Everything before that is preparatory.
by that logic: if I'm ill (with a nasty flu), bedridden, reliant on loved ones or paid help just to eat a bowl of soup, my life is over
no, independence alone isn't the foundation of personhood
thought crimes
doesn't one have to be a mind-reader to tell the difference?
not really
jan aborts cuz she doesn't want the baby (she murders)
betty aborts cuz she'll die if she doesn't (she kills)
For the record, a human being, like all other organisms, begins when its life is independent of any other organism, biologically. Everything before that is preparatory.
by that logic: if I'm ill (with a nasty flu), bedridden, reliant on loved ones or paid help just to eat a bowl of soup, my life is over
no, independence alone isn't the foundation of personhood
- henry quirk
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pete
with all the activity in-thread, it's hard to keep track of every post
bein' a good egg, I've replicated my post from upthread cuz I know you'll wanna respond
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But that doesn't answer my question: is the distinction between justified and unjustified killing a matter of fact or a matter of opinion?
It does: a fact leads to a moral fact that in turns leads to practical applications.
If you think it's a matter of fact, because a man belongs to himself, how does self-ownership apply to a zygote?
And, if that's not clear enough: every fertilized ovum is a potential person (it won't turn into an apple; it can only become a human being [or, a person] or fail (and die). You ought to leave it be (or, mebbe, help it). But, since you won't, you ought to at least recognize the science showing the 12 week old baby, while under-developed, possesses all the biological systems of any human.
Solely from a morally non-realistic position: if consensus over the long-haul (your morality) tells us we ought not kill a man simply cuz he inconveniences us, then we ought not kill a child simply cuz he inconveniences the woman whose actions put him in her womb.
bein' a good egg, I've replicated my post from upthread cuz I know you'll wanna respond
-----
But that doesn't answer my question: is the distinction between justified and unjustified killing a matter of fact or a matter of opinion?
It does: a fact leads to a moral fact that in turns leads to practical applications.
If you think it's a matter of fact, because a man belongs to himself, how does self-ownership apply to a zygote?
I believe the first, but -- understanding that's a religious viewpoint -- I grudgingly accept the second.henry quirk wrote: ↑Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:23 pmAs a deist (whacky, irrational, morally realistic, ought to be locked away): I believe personhood is when spirit is irrevocably coupled to substance (crazy, yeah?). This composite of spirit and substance (soul and flesh, information and matter) is a person.
Goin' only by science: a person arises from a particular and peculiar kind of biological complexity most clearly evidenced by human beings from the end of the first trimester on.
And, if that's not clear enough: every fertilized ovum is a potential person (it won't turn into an apple; it can only become a human being [or, a person] or fail (and die). You ought to leave it be (or, mebbe, help it). But, since you won't, you ought to at least recognize the science showing the 12 week old baby, while under-developed, possesses all the biological systems of any human.
Solely from a morally non-realistic position: if consensus over the long-haul (your morality) tells us we ought not kill a man simply cuz he inconveniences us, then we ought not kill a child simply cuz he inconveniences the woman whose actions put him in her womb.
Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Thanks for your thoughtful reply. But the moral values of a particular society are mostly the same as the moral values of that society's past plus biological traits of all men. I'm not about to start arguing for nature or nurture, however moral values are determined by one or the other nature or nurture.surreptitious57 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:03 pmA fact is a truth statement that can be demonstrated with logic or evidenceBelinda wrote:What do you call a fact ?Peter Holmes wrote:
moral fact is an oxymoron
By morality are you talking about particular moral codes - the function of morality in society - morality as
part of mans past - the moral component in religious behaviour and belief or morality as a biological trait ?
Morality as in the morality of that particular society at that particular time
So majority consensus based upon the values of a particular belief system if society is religious or secular values if society is non religious
But not morality as a function of society because that is sociology or mans past [ history ] or as biological trait [ evolutionary psychology ]
I said "mostly the same" as of course there are a very few men who are especially influential and who influence cultural beliefs far more than their contemporaries.
When regarding the influence of nurture on morals, when I say "nurture " I refer to climate, geography, terrain, weather, other species, and so forth the total ecology including means of subsistence.
- RCSaunders
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Re: RC
But no one else can know which, "cuz," motivated an individual's choice.henry quirk wrote: ↑Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:19 pm jan aborts cuz she doesn't want the baby (she murders)
betty aborts cuz she'll die if she doesn't (she kills)
Please read more carefully. The statement says, "human life begins when its life is independent of any other organism. It does not say life, "continues," when independent of any other organism. Since your life began some time ago, that is a totally different issue. It also says, "independent of any other organism, biologically," which you are, no matter how much you are tended to by others in your ill health. You do not require a placenta to live, anything that requires a placenta to live is not yet a human being.henry quirk wrote: ↑Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:19 pm For the record, a human being, like all other organisms, begins when its life is independent of any other organism, biologically. Everything before that is preparatory.
by that logic: if I'm ill (with a nasty flu), bedridden, reliant on loved ones or paid help just to eat a bowl of soup, my life is over ...
Whatever, "personhood," is supposed to mean? The issue is when a organism's life begins.henry quirk wrote: ↑Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:19 pm no, independence alone isn't the foundation of personhood
- henry quirk
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Re: RC
But no one else can know which
unless she's doin' the abortion herself: yeah, the doc will know
anything that requires a placenta to live is not yet a human being.
iron lung, placenta: potato, potato
Whatever, "personhood," is supposed to mean? The issue is when a organism's life begins.
I've been talkin' about when a person begins: mebbe you should read more carefully
unless she's doin' the abortion herself: yeah, the doc will know
anything that requires a placenta to live is not yet a human being.
iron lung, placenta: potato, potato
Whatever, "personhood," is supposed to mean? The issue is when a organism's life begins.
I've been talkin' about when a person begins: mebbe you should read more carefully
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
This is absolutely and demonstrably falseBelinda wrote:
But the moral values of a particular society are mostly the same as the moral values of that societys past plus biological traits of all men
The moral values of contemporary society are like nothing compared to those of the past and less so the further back in time one goes
The liberal values you take for granted today in the West are incredibly recent because for most of history they never actually existed
Human rights as a concept did not exist until the last century and so was not recognised in international law until very recently indeed
Can you think of a single period in the past where all other things being equal you would willingly swap with your life today
Even just a hundred years ago the quality of your life from all aspects - not just moral - would have been very compromised
Society does not just advance technologically but morally too and those changes are just as profound if not actually moreso
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Re: RC
Since when does a life begin in an iron lung.henry quirk wrote: ↑Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:06 pm anything that requires a placenta to live is not yet a human being.
iron lung, placenta: potato, potato
An iron lung helps someone already alive to stay alive. It's only purpose is for those already alive.
A placenta prepares a potential human to begin life. When life begins the placenta is no longer needed, and would actually kill him if not removed. Its only purpose is before one becomes alive as a human being.
Apples and oranges.
- henry quirk
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Re: RC
an iron ling keeps joe alive
without it: joe croaks
a placenta keeps lil fetus person alive
without it: lil fetus person croaks
cheese & fromage
without it: joe croaks
a placenta keeps lil fetus person alive
without it: lil fetus person croaks
cheese & fromage
- RCSaunders
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Re: RC
or a human being has been born. As long as it is a, "fetus person," it is not a human being. When it becomes a human being it no longer requires a placenta to keep it alive.henry quirk wrote: ↑Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:09 pm an iron lung keeps joe alive
without it: joe croaks
a placenta keeps lil fetus person alive
without it: lil fetus person croaks
eggs and chickens
[/quote]
Don't complain when the pound of chicken you bought turns out to be fertilized eggs.
You can call it what you like, but I don't count chickens until they're hatched and I don't count people until they are born. You can't murder what does not yet exist.
- henry quirk
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Re: RC
I don't count people until they are born
and I say a person is a person by week 12 of the pregnancy (and probably a lot earlier than that)
and I say a person is a person by week 12 of the pregnancy (and probably a lot earlier than that)
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Re: RC
Good. No argument is possible here. We just have a different view of what a human being (me) or person (you) is. I have no interest in changing your mind, we just don't agree. It's actually a bit academic, anyway, since neither of us is actually going to have to face the question.henry quirk wrote: ↑Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:35 pm I don't count people until they are born
and I say a person is a person by week 12 of the pregnancy (and probably a lot earlier than that)
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Re: pete
Sorry, Henry. You're right - there's stuff here I want to respond to - and I will when I next get a moment.henry quirk wrote: ↑Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:23 pm with all the activity in-thread, it's hard to keep track of every post
bein' a good egg, I've replicated my post from upthread cuz I know you'll wanna respond
-----
But that doesn't answer my question: is the distinction between justified and unjustified killing a matter of fact or a matter of opinion?
It does: a fact leads to a moral fact that in turns leads to practical applications.
If you think it's a matter of fact, because a man belongs to himself, how does self-ownership apply to a zygote?
I believe the first, but -- understanding that's a religious viewpoint -- I grudgingly accept the second.henry quirk wrote: ↑Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:23 pmAs a deist (whacky, irrational, morally realistic, ought to be locked away): I believe personhood is when spirit is irrevocably coupled to substance (crazy, yeah?). This composite of spirit and substance (soul and flesh, information and matter) is a person.
Goin' only by science: a person arises from a particular and peculiar kind of biological complexity most clearly evidenced by human beings from the end of the first trimester on.
And, if that's not clear enough: every fertilized ovum is a potential person (it won't turn into an apple; it can only become a human being [or, a person] or fail (and die). You ought to leave it be (or, mebbe, help it). But, since you won't, you ought to at least recognize the science showing the 12 week old baby, while under-developed, possesses all the biological systems of any human.
Solely from a morally non-realistic position: if consensus over the long-haul (your morality) tells us we ought not kill a man simply cuz he inconveniences us, then we ought not kill a child simply cuz he inconveniences the woman whose actions put him in her womb.
- henry quirk
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RC
It's actually a bit academic
quite the opposite, really
quite the opposite, really
- RCSaunders
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Re: RC
Oh!? When I asked you about a non-academic practical application of your view, namely, what should be done about a women who has an abortion, you gave me some demure song and dance about what happens in American jurisprudence.henry quirk wrote: ↑Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:51 pm It's actually a bit academic
quite the opposite, really
When I asked you again, "what you think ought to be done," you blew the question off with some fancy speech about a man having an, "inviolate right to his life, liberty, and property. His life, liberty, or property is only forfeit, in part or whole, when he knowingly, without just cause, deprives, in part or whole, another of his life, liberty, or property," which means you believe in that obscenity called, "retributive justice." If that's what you truly believe, since you believe abortion is murder, it would mean the woman should be executed. No wonder you evaded a direct answer. Perhaps we should bring back stoning. You aren't a Muslim, are you?
If I've misinterpreted what you've said, it's unintended, but I don't see how it can mean anything else.
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Re: RC
It seems difficult to argue against that. Although, I would think it should depend upon the stage of development the fetus is in. I mean if it's just a glob of cells that hasn't formed anything like a brain yet, I wouldn't think it should count as murder.henry quirk wrote: ↑Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:19 pm jan aborts cuz she doesn't want the baby (she murders)
betty aborts cuz she'll die if she doesn't (she kills)