Is God necessary for morality?

[Skepdick]

Tell me a truth nobody knows about.

The size of the universe. For certain, it has one, since we know it's expanding; but nobody knows exactly what it is. And by the time they decide, it's bigger. So there's a truth only knowable to the Supreme Being.

Or the number of hairs on your head right now. Or the number of stars above, or the sand of the seashore. All these things are finite, and so must have a true number. But you don't know what that number is.

If all those things do have a true number, then why aren't you telling me what it is?

[Belinda]

How do you tell the difference between what is deluded and what is not deluded?

You do that all the time, don't you?

Or do you think you live in the midst of innumerable delusions you are simply powerless to resist?

Are you deliberately evading the question "how do you know------?" I sought an answer along the lines of some criterion e.g.

a) because God has revealed what is true and what false. Or

b) because science, President Trump, the Prime Minister, my mother, my school teacher, Isaac Newton, the Pope revealed what is true and what deluded.Or

c) because I equate what is deluded with what I don't endorse. Or

d) because a deluded person harms themself and others, and harm/potential for harm is the definitive attribute for delusion . Or

e) because delusion makes the deluded person inefficient at their everyday tasks.

[Immanuel Can]

Tell me a truth nobody knows about.

The size of the universe. For certain, it has one, since we know it's expanding; but nobody knows exactly what it is. And by the time they decide, it's bigger. So there's a truth only knowable to the Supreme Being.

Or the number of hairs on your head right now. Or the number of stars above, or the sand of the seashore. All these things are finite, and so must have a true number. But you don't know what that number is.

If all those things do have a true number, then why aren't you telling me what it is?

You know why. Read again.

[Sculptor]

The size of the universe. For certain, it has one, since we know it's expanding; but nobody knows exactly what it is. And by the time they decide, it's bigger. So there's a truth only knowable to the Supreme Being.

Or the number of hairs on your head right now. Or the number of stars above, or the sand of the seashore. All these things are finite, and so must have a true number. But you don't know what that number is.

If all those things do have a true number, then why aren't you telling me what it is?

You know why. Read again.

There is no truth lest it be known.
It is only true when it is known.

[Immanuel Can]

How do you tell the difference between what is deluded and what is not deluded?

You do that all the time, don't you?

Or do you think you live in the midst of innumerable delusions you are simply powerless to resist?

Are you deliberately evading the question "how do you know------?"

No. I'm asking you to tap into your own experience and use that as a launch-point for answering that question based on things you already do all the time.

But I don't know what "experience" you have, so I'm asking. You must do something to protect or free yourself from delusions: I'm asking you what you do on a daily basis. What's the solution you're already using?

[Immanuel Can]

There is no truth lest it be known.

As a sentence, that means "There is no truth because people don't want the truth to be known." Is that the sentence you were intending to frame?

[Sculptor]

There is no truth lest it be known.

As a sentence, that means "There is no truth because people don't want the truth to be known." Is that the sentence you were intending to frame?

No only an idiot would interpret it that way.

[Immanuel Can]

There is no truth lest it be known.

As a sentence, that means "There is no truth because people don't want the truth to be known." Is that the sentence you were intending to frame?

No only an idiot would interpret it that way.

It's not obvious at all what it means...I'm just asking you if you want a second chance to say what you actually want to.

If you're unable to explain, okay.

[Sculptor]

As a sentence, that means "There is no truth because people don't want the truth to be known." Is that the sentence you were intending to frame?

No only an idiot would interpret it that way.

It's not obvious at all what it means...I'm just asking you if you want a second chance to say what you actually want to.

If you're unable to explain, okay.

Truth is a relationship between a conscious agent and the world.
Without both there can be no truth.
Truth comes about when the conscious agent and the condition of the world are in agreement.

Seriously where the hell do you get "... don't want the truth to be known...."?

[Immanuel Can]

Seriously where the hell do you get "... don't want the truth to be known...."?

From the archaic word "lest." It means, "in order to prevent," or "so that X will not happen." https://www.lexico.com/definition/lest

And you wrote: "There is no truth lest it be known." Roughly, that translates to, "There is no truth so that the truth will not be known," which appears to be a self-contradiction. And I wanted you to have the chance to retract a sentence that consequently seemed unlikely to be what you really meant.

I was trying to be fair to you.

[Belinda]

You do that all the time, don't you?

Or do you think you live in the midst of innumerable delusions you are simply powerless to resist?

Are you deliberately evading the question "how do you know------?"

No. I'm asking you to tap into your own experience and use that as a launch-point for answering that question based on things you already do all the time.

But I don't know what "experience" you have, so I'm asking. You must do something to protect or free yourself from delusions: I'm asking you what you do on a daily basis. What's the solution you're already using?

I'd be happy to explain to you what I do, and it would be easy for me to do so. But I asked you first. I wonder why you don't answer.

[Immanuel Can]

I'd be happy to explain to you what I do, and it would be easy for me to do so. But I asked you first. I wonder why you don't answer.

I'm waiting to see what you already know, before I try to add any new information to it. You surely do some very routine things to find out what's a delusion and what's not...what are they?

Before we get into anything extraordinary, let's figure out the ordinary.

[Belinda]

I'd be happy to explain to you what I do, and it would be easy for me to do so. But I asked you first. I wonder why you don't answer.

I'm waiting to see what you already know, before I try to add any new information to it. You surely do some very routine things to find out what's a delusion and what's not...what are they?

Before we get into anything extraordinary, let's figure out the ordinary.

I await your reply to my question before I answer your question. First things first to keep the discussion on track.

[Immanuel Can]

I await your reply to my question before I answer your question.

I'll give you one, and I'll bet you use it, too. Use logic. If something is inherently self-contradictory, it's not true.

So what do you do?

[Belinda]

I await your reply to my question before I answer your question.

I'll give you one, and I'll bet you use it, too. Use logic. If something is inherently self-contradictory, it's not true.

So what do you do?

I agree with you if something is inherently contradictory it's not true. However I can and often do believe two interpretations of the same text.Also I can and sometimes do change my perspective so my frame of meaning varies and two contradictory ides are each true according to different frames of reference.

How I distinguish between a deluded idea and a true idea is a question I have to introspect to answer. I sometimes have an internal argument about whether an idea is deluded or not. Some ideas are very important for health and safety face coverings for instance and like most everyone else I have thought about the science and decided the latest science is correct.I therefor think people who don't use face masks in shops are deluded.
As for God, I don't think modern day believers are deluded but I think those believers who believe the Miracle of Fatima are deluded. To call someone deluded is to disparage them, so I'd not call the people who originally saw the Sun dancing 'deluded'. Without that connotation I'd still not call those long ago people deluded, because most individuals are enmeshed in a total world view .
I do think modern people who believe it's okay for Trump to send federal troops to intimidate legal demonstrators in Portland are deliberately deluded by particular politicians and media.To be deluded is to be deliberately deluded by some other person or persons. People delude other people. God of course cannot delude anyone as that is not the nature of God as I understand God'.

At this juncture we revert to "is God necessary for morality?" I claim not so because morality is intersubjective and not an objective, natural and absolute law.