Where are you finding these post-able pictures with the coding at the bottom?
For some reason, my browser won’t allow me to copy and paste pictures anymore.
(Or it might be something funky going on since a recent upgrade to Windows 10. )
_______
Where are you finding these post-able pictures with the coding at the bottom?
seeds wrote: ↑Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:27 pm ...be willing to relinquish your eternal life of bliss in heaven if - by reason of some kind of divine law - it would extricate a loved one from an eternity of torture in hell?
In other words,...
(at least in terms of this hypothetical situation)
...if you understood that your sacrifice would forever erase you and your loved one from the “Book Of Life,” would you be willing to do that if it would end the eternal suffering of someone dear to you?
Sorry, Dubious, but reason and rationality have no place in this scenario.Dubious wrote: ↑Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:33 am Not at all and not in the least. Assuming god to be a just judge, anyone who by ITS criteria have committed the kind of crimes which deserve hell is not anything one would love in the first place whether it be family, friend or stranger. Screw 'em, let them burn!
That would be my conclusion IF I believed in hell.
Yes, I realize that but you asked a specific question...
I merely followed up on it in the way it was presented, as you say, as a thought experiment and I replied directly to that question. Maybe I misunderstood your intent.With that in mind, the question is: would you, Christian or Muslim,...
(or anyone else who believes in the existence of the heaven/hell scenario)
...be willing to relinquish your eternal life of bliss in heaven if - by reason of some kind of divine law - it would extricate a loved one from an eternity of torture in hell?
In other words,...
(at least in terms of this hypothetical situation)
...if you understood that your sacrifice would forever erase you and your loved one from the “Book Of Life,” would you be willing to do that if it would end the eternal suffering of someone dear to you?
And to extend the question a little further: would you do it for a stranger?
Yes, exactly!seeds wrote: ↑Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:51 am Because the real issue comes in the form of how ridiculous it is to think that the occupants of Heaven,...
(allegedly a place of supreme love and beauty)
...would function in such a dark and demented state of mind as to accept, not only the existence of the never-ending torture and suffering of sentient beings, but a torturing of their very own earthly friends, relatives, and loved ones.
Who, exactly, are the real demons in this bizarre theological concoction?
Okay, thanks henry.henry quirk wrote: ↑Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:17 pmGoogle images. The coding comes from the machine I use. I work off an old ipad. When i post an image the site offers me the option to put the image inline. It's not really an option, though: if I don't choose inline my images won't show. Anyway, I like the coding cuz it lets me see how many views the image has had.
Send Amod a message: ask for his assist. Mebbe some forum machinery needs tweakin'.
seeds wrote: ↑Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:51 am Because the real issue comes in the form of how ridiculous it is to think that the occupants of Heaven,...
(allegedly a place of supreme love and beauty)
...would function in such a dark and demented state of mind as to accept, not only the existence of the never-ending torture and suffering of sentient beings, but a torturing of their very own earthly friends, relatives, and loved ones.
Who, exactly, are the real demons in this bizarre theological concoction?
As always, Lacewing, you make some excellent points.Lacewing wrote: ↑Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:23 pm Yes, exactly!
Religion CREATES EVIL which is projected onto others. This serves to falsely glorify the religious as being above that which is made-up. It's so incredibly absurd and transparent, I don't know how anyone can still be believing/repeating such things.
I am sure that you already know this, but other than in some random cases, I don’t think it’s so much that the adherents of any particular religion “choose” what they believe.
I agree. I am not sure, however, that most religions and their followers can be free enough from their stories and the payoffs of those stories -- to be clear and present enough to create/understand a new/different paradigm -- unless there is some kind of great undoing (and resulting awakening) to help them let go of what they're locked onto.
I can imagine it seems less escapable for those who live in situations of limited options and exposure. But many of us can and do think for ourselves much more freely (and we evolve in many ways over the course of our lifetimes). I admit that I've been shocked by the senseless zombie-like responses given by some people interviewed at Trump rallies -- because it is as if they have gleefully handed themselves over to a certain mindset without critically questioning/assessing anything for themselves. I guess this is how, in human history, armies of people have been able to follow crazed leadership/platforms down inexplicable paths. I thought we were beyond such things. Apparently not! Good to know. Group mentality seems very intoxicating.seeds wrote: ↑Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:18 pmI am sure that you already know this, but other than in some random cases, I don’t think it’s so much that the adherents of any particular religion “choose” what they believe.
No, for it seems obvious that most humans are the victims of the result of that which is foisted upon them due to the incessant indoctrination (brainwashing) they receive from the moment of birth – all of which is dependent upon when and where they awakened into life on the surface of this flying orb.
I think I understand to a certain degree: I remember the turmoil I went through myself when realizing that everything I had been so sure of, was wrong or untrue. I remember the utter terror! I remember the existential threat to my ego and identity. But I simply could not "unsee" or go back... as much as I wanted to... when I realized there was a much larger "universe" of thought/potential than what I'd believed there was. I realized that my ego and my belief had been barriers to greater truth, so I needed to tell them to take a back seat -- and I became hungry for more and new information to learn about a broader landscape. I discovered a BOUNTY of information all around -- I only needed to be open to notice it. People on this forum have an opportunity to question things for themselves too. Some egos appear willing to be insane to insist on having the "highest" answers, which they suggest/claim that only they have.seeds wrote: ↑Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:18 pmFurthermore, even though you and I are being highly critical and scornful of the absurdity of what I tried to point out in the OP, we must also try to be more understanding of how difficult it is for the average person to break-free and rise above their initial “brainwashing.”
Well, I totally appreciate what you're saying. I think it's important to note that I would not use a wrecking ball in person (unless it was really applicable)! But, here, we're on a forum (a stage) where the hardest of the hardcore come to preach their particular manic notions with full blinding and fanatic headgear on. Anything I say to them is what I would say to myself if I were doing and saying what they are doing and saying. Whatever hope and comfort they might actually need can be supported in so many places -- this forum is not one of them. So if people are HERE, I'm guessing they yearn for more challenge and truth, even if they put on a terrific show of resisting it. That offers a fantastic opportunity for others to express without restraint our own creative approach or onslaught -- and mine varies according to the person and the content/context. Aside from the entertainment value, it is truly my hope for people to consider/realize a freer and broader scope/universe for themselves (if they'd like that), even if they don't want to admit to it here.seeds wrote: ↑Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:18 pm And lastly, Lacewing, if we simply approach this as if we were some kind of demolition crew armed with wrecking balls and sawzalls to destroy all of the old religious edifices that billions of humans desperately rely on for hope and comfort; a destruction carried out without any plans or blueprints in hand for the erection of something new and more logical to replace those edifices...
...then we are no better than the angry and snarling hardcore atheists who only offer pure and empty nihilism in the wake of their attacks on religion.
Doesn’t it seem as though we may be in the midst (or at least at the beginning stages) of a “great undoing” at this very moment?Lacewing wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:05 pm I agree. I am not sure, however, that most religions and their followers can be free enough from their stories and the payoffs of those stories -- to be clear and present enough to create/understand a new/different paradigm -- unless there is some kind of great undoing (and resulting awakening) to help them let go of what they're locked onto.
seeds wrote: ↑Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:18 pm ...it seems obvious that most humans are the victims of the result of that which is foisted upon them due to the incessant indoctrination (brainwashing) they receive from the moment of birth – all of which is dependent upon when and where they awakened into life on the surface of this flying orb.
It’s not only that (and I’m not implying that it’s much different now), but until modern times, the majority of humans on earth were so preoccupied with the mere process of survival that they simply didn’t have the time (or the education, or the inclination) to develop their own theories regarding creation, or to question the authority of the “powers that be” and risk being an outcast.
Yes, and you are talking about millions of humans across the U.S.
seeds wrote: ↑Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:18 pm Furthermore, even though you and I are being highly critical and scornful of the absurdity of what I tried to point out in the OP, we must also try to be more understanding of how difficult it is for the average person to break-free and rise above their initial “brainwashing.”
That’s a great story, Lacewing, thanks for that.Lacewing wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:05 pm I think I understand to a certain degree: I remember the turmoil I went through myself when realizing that everything I had been so sure of, was wrong or untrue. I remember the utter terror! I remember the existential threat to my ego and identity. But I simply could not "unsee" or go back... as much as I wanted to... when I realized there was a much larger "universe" of thought/potential than what I'd believed there was. I realized that my ego and my belief had been barriers to greater truth, so I needed to tell them to take a back seat -- and I became hungry for more and new information to learn about a broader landscape. I discovered a BOUNTY of information all around -- I only needed to be open to notice it...
seeds wrote: ↑Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:18 pm And lastly, Lacewing, if we simply approach this as if we were some kind of demolition crew armed with wrecking balls and sawzalls to destroy all of the old religious edifices that billions of humans desperately rely on for hope and comfort; a destruction carried out without any plans or blueprints in hand for the erection of something new and more logical to replace those edifices...
...then we are no better than the angry and snarling hardcore atheists who only offer pure and empty nihilism in the wake of their attacks on religion.
Alluding back to my earlier comment on how the majority of people on earth simply do not have the time, or the inclination, or the mental wherewithal (consider the Trump crowd, for example) to explore the mysteries of reality, then the creation of new and formalized spiritual edifices...
Right back at ya! And be careful what you ask for!
Emmanual Kan/Can is a Christian, and a good fellow with a heart and mind. I think you might consider PM-ing him and point him to this thread for him to give his views on this matter.seeds wrote: ↑Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:25 pm _______
In response to gaffo, Age, and DAM...
According to Wiki:
(Note that according to religious dogma, a hell-bound “evil soul” is anyone who rejects Jesus as their personal savior, or rejects the teachings of Islam.)Wiki wrote: In religion and folklore, Hell is an afterlife location in which evil souls are subjected to punitive suffering, often torture as eternal punishment after death. Religions with a linear divine history often depict hells as eternal destinations, the biggest examples of which are Christianity and Islam...
The OP question was directed at the Christians and Muslims (or anyone else) who ACTUALLY BELIEVE in the existence of Heaven and Hell as they are often depicted in the ancillary lore of their corresponding religions.
The OP sets-up a very simple premise that asks what one who was lucky enough (pious enough) to make it into Heaven would do if they were given the option of sacrificing their eternal life in Heaven in order to save a loved one who is suffering in Hell.
Unfortunately, all of the contributors to the thread thus far appear to be neither Christians nor Muslims nor anyone who believes in the existence of Hell, and are therefore sidetracking the purpose of the OP with their comments.
Now if someone wants to create a thread where we can all debate the absurdity of Hell, then I will be at the top of the list of those who will offer arguments as to just how ridiculous the idea of Hell actually is, as is depicted in one of my personal illustrations below...
And just in case the dialogue in the caption bubbles is too small or blurry to read, then here is a rundown of what is being said:
Little girl: “Please help me daddy, they’re hurting me! Please daddy, help me!”
Dad: “Sorry punkin, but daddy’s in heaven now and heaven wouldn’t be ‘perfect’ if I had to worry about you....Besides, we told you what would happen if you didn’t believe in ‘our’ concept of God....By the way, how’s your grandma doing?...Oh never mind, why should I care?...I’m in heaven.”
God: “After she has suffered a billion years of unspeakable burning agony, she’ll be sorry she ignored me....I will then continue her torture throughout all eternity....Does anyone doubt the fairness of my judgment?”
1st angel: “Your fairness and mercy are without equal.”
2nd angel: “In the name of love she’s getting exactly what she deserves.”
And, of course, beneath the daughter and the demons is not Satan, but God; the creator and sustainer of all realities - including Hell.
And yes, all of that is utterly ridiculous, yet it is precisely what all of the hellfire and brimstone preachers of Christianity and Islam must accept as being possible if Heaven and Hell are real destinations of the human soul.
Clearly, I am still waiting for a Hell-believing Christian or Muslim to demonstrate the courage of their convictions and chime-in on this subject.
_______
Niven wrote his version of Dante's inferno where Benetto Musalini(sp) was a guide to the main character who died and found himself in Hell.henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:40 pm I agree with gaffo...
I have no problem with Hell as a place to serve a sentence for sins.
...the catholics have such a penalty box: limbo I think they call it.
Larry Niven & Jerry Pournelle wrote a couple of novels wherein hell was much like the catholic limbo. You could leave when ready to.
Hell, as last stop, irrevocable end point: nah.
thanks for clarification - I always welcome knowledge!henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:48 pm the catholics have such a penalty box: limbo I think they call it.
I'm wrong.
Limbo is where unbaptized infants go.
Purgatory is the penalty box.
do you equate those three equally? I don'thenry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:26 pm Just out of curiosity, though, name a few “sins” that you think warrant a stint in Hell.
There's only one, as I reckon it: deprivin' a person of his life, liberty, or property without just cause.
Dubious wrote: ↑Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:33 amNot at all and not in the least. Assuming god to be a just judge, anyone who by ITS criteria have committed the kind of crimes which deserve hell is not anything one would love in the first place whether it be family, friend or stranger. Screw 'em, let them burn!seeds wrote: ↑Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:27 pm
...be willing to relinquish your eternal life of bliss in heaven if - by reason of some kind of divine law - it would extricate a loved one from an eternity of torture in hell?
In other words,...
(at least in terms of this hypothetical situation)
...if you understood that your sacrifice would forever erase you and your loved one from the “Book Of Life,” would you be willing to do that if it would end the eternal suffering of someone dear to you?
_______
That would be my conclusion IF I believed in hell.