Are You Enjoying Your Life?

[seeds]

Do you believe that humans function at a higher level of consciousness than amoebas? If yes, then at least consider the possibility that a similar chasm may exist between us and that which ascends above us.

We're not going to agree, but I wanted to answer that question, for the record, so to speak.

That’s nonsense, RC, because I completely agree with your first five words in the above quote.

Now with that being cleared up, I would like to address what you said to Lacewing in the following post:

we’re all in the same boat when it comes to being fooled by the universe. It’s just that some of us are at least aware of the fact that something fishy is going on.

Why do you think that's awareness rather than imagination?

That's exactly what it is, and as mystical as any religion.

Do you want to know what is even more mystical and faith-based than many religions?

It is the faith that materialists have in the idea that the utterly blind and mindless processes of gravity and thermodynamics could somehow cause vast and random fields of (post Bang) quantum phenomena to magically come together to not only form the perfect source of light and heat (a sun), but also to create the perfect setting (the earth) that gravity somehow managed to fully equip with every possible ingredient necessary to awaken us into existence - all by sheer luck.

Now that is some serious religious-like faith in the creative powers of chance.

(Continued in next post)
_______

[seeds]

_______

(Continued from prior post)

I am picking up where I left off from your post to Lacewing where you were giving your assessment of something I said to her (of which I quote isolated for the sake of clarity):

“... the fabric of matter appears to be made of the very essence of imagination itself...”

and

“the stars, planets, oceans, trees, bodies, brains, etc., seem to be made from a substance that is capable of becoming absolutely anything 'imaginable' (as in 'mindstuff'),”

is pure mystic supernaturalism couched in pseudo-scientific language.

Earlier, you stated the following:

I'm truly curious how people come to your view. It was Plato's as well. Always wished I could ask him how he knew what a cave was.

Well, ironically, as you insist that my ideas are...

“...pure mystic supernaturalism couched in pseudo-scientific language...”

...you are demonstrating for us - in real time - precisely what a person who is chained and forced to view the shadows on the wall of Plato’s cave would say.

Now I am not suggesting that Plato’s cave analogy can’t be nonsense. However, aren’t you the least bit concerned that you may be presenting yourself as the poster boy for what Plato was alluding to?

I mean, are you comfortable with the fact that you are demonstrating exactly what the analogy predicts regarding the utter futility of trying to convince the cave dwellers that they are viewing illusions?

Furthermore, how in the world is it “mystic supernaturalism” to proclaim that the near infinite variety of material objects that makeup the universe are constructed from what seems to be an infinitely malleable substance that,...

...depending on the arrangement of its informationally-based quantum waveforms,...

...can pretty much become, again, anything imaginable - as is presented to us, again, in the near infinite variety of the material objects of the universe?

I’m sorry, RC, but if you truly think that my presenting an obvious fact of reality is nothing more than...

“...pure mystic supernaturalism couched in pseudo-scientific language...”

...then it is clear to me that you just haven’t put enough effort into considering the metaphysical implications of quantum mechanics.

Now, of course, you certainly are in good company in that regard, because a lot of respected physicists who live by the “shut up and calculate” motto are right there with you.

Now with all of that being said, please understand that I honestly don’t mean to be insulting to you in any way.

However, as I always say to all hardcore materialists in debates such as this, the more heartfelt and articulate you are in expressing your faith in materialism, then the more you demonstrate – in direct proportion to the strength of your faith – the depth and degree of your somnambulism.

In other words, the harder you argue for materialism, then the more you make obvious the degree to which you are being fooled by the shadows in Plato’s cave.

Nevertheless, if that is how you personally choose to “enjoy your life,” then, by all means, carry on.
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[gaffo]

Is wisdom not the foundation of philosophy rather than happiness ?

it is, so ignore the hedonists.

they are fools.

IMO.

[gaffo]

Is wisdom not the foundation of philosophy rather than happiness ?

Is the purpose of wisdom to achieve suffering and death, or joy and life?

neither, Wisdom's sole goal is self knowledge.

for happiness or sorrow.

life IS. one deals with it, and after knowing/valuing Wisdom takes the bitter pill with the sweet one, on the journy of life - such is life in this realm.

bitter serves the purpose for sweet and vise versa (perspective to value the opposite) , its not all roses bubba.

If wisdom does not lead to one's successful living as a human being, what good is it?

you do not understand the concept of wisdom clearly.

there are thousands of poor/homeless wise folks - who know themselves, but lost out in the $$ game.

as there are the same foolish not wise billioniares in this same world.


the fact that seem to think wisdom = $$$$$$ means i think you might be a fool and not wise (you value things of no value - and also to not value kowning yourself since the latter does not equate to $$).


wise up Bubba.

[gaffo]

If you are not enjoying your life there is something wrong with your philosophy.

I would say that I enjoy my life, however, I still think there's something wrong with my philosophy.

Amen, and concur.

Humility is a virtue.

[RCSaunders]

Is wisdom not the foundation of philosophy rather than happiness ?

Is the purpose of wisdom to achieve suffering and death, or joy and life?

neither, Wisdom's sole goal is self knowledge.

for happiness or sorrow.

life IS. one deals with it, and after knowing/valuing Wisdom takes the bitter pill with the sweet one, on the journy of life - such is life in this realm.

bitter serves the purpose for sweet and vise versa (perspective to value the opposite) , its not all roses bubba.

If wisdom does not lead to one's successful living as a human being, what good is it?

you do not understand the concept of wisdom clearly.

there are thousands of poor/homeless wise folks - who know themselves, but lost out in the $$ game.

as there are the same foolish not wise billioniares in this same world.


the fact that seem to think wisdom = $$$$$$ means i think you might be a fool and not wise (you value things of no value - and also to not value kowning yourself since the latter does not equate to $$).


wise up Bubba.

If you choose to regard life as something to endure and suffer, I have no objection, but it is not necessary. The purpose of life is to live it to the fullest, achieving and being all one can be, which is a fulfilled and satisfied life. If you are suffering, you are not living to your fullest potential and not being fully human, but then most human beings live way below their potential, because living right is hard and they'd rather complain.

Why would you choose a life that ultimately you'll regret because you didn't choose to make it all you could? If you suffer in this life, this much is certain, all that you suffers is the consequence of your own wrong choices and actions. If you suffer, don't blame life, or the world, or society, or others, or luck, or anything else, because the only one to blame for your failure to make a success of your life, is you!

[RCSaunders]

Humility is a virtue.

Humility is a self-depracating vice, most often used as an excuse for one's faults and failures.

[gaffo]

Is the purpose of wisdom to achieve suffering and death, or joy and life?

neither, Wisdom's sole goal is self knowledge.

for happiness or sorrow.

life IS. one deals with it, and after knowing/valuing Wisdom takes the bitter pill with the sweet one, on the journy of life - such is life in this realm.

bitter serves the purpose for sweet and vise versa (perspective to value the opposite) , its not all roses bubba.

If wisdom does not lead to one's successful living as a human being, what good is it?

you do not understand the concept of wisdom clearly.

there are thousands of poor/homeless wise folks - who know themselves, but lost out in the $$ game.

as there are the same foolish not wise billioniares in this same world.


the fact that seem to think wisdom = $$$$$$ means i think you might be a fool and not wise (you value things of no value - and also to not value kowning yourself since the latter does not equate to $$).


wise up Bubba.

If you choose to regard life as something to endure and suffer, I have no objection, but it is not necessary. The purpose of life is to live it to the fullest, achieving and being all one can be, which is a fulfilled and satisfied life. If you are suffering, you are not living to your fullest potential and not being fully human, but then most human beings live way below their potential, because living right is hard and they'd rather complain.

I agree, not a fan of playing victim/martyr which seems popular. life is tough via it nature, no need to play a victim more than one is be life itself.

do me it just seemed via your prior post you seemed to fixate on wealth over wisdom. if i was wrong, then i missunderstood your point. that was my understanding and so objected to it.

Why would you choose a life that ultimately you'll regret because you didn't choose to make it all you could? If you suffer in this life,

our world is not that simple. when and where - the above? if today in America, one can be wise and live my your conscience with little to pay for it.

not so if one was living in 1930's germany/russia.

this much is certain, all that you suffers is the consequence of your own wrong choices and actions.

again, not so simple. yes personal actions do have consequences, but why/when and to what degree?

depends upon the time and the nation.

to do right, will cost you your life if in Germany as a Jew/or russia for that matter, or in Ruwanda in the 90's if you are not Huti (or if your wife is a Ruwandan you can give her to the Hutus to be killed - play the pussy - or you can defend her and end up dead with her) - ya, "life" is not that simple, there will always be the personal compass of right and wrong, but depending upon the place and time that cost changes from little to your life!

If you suffer, don't blame life, or the world, or society, or others, or luck, or anything else, because the only one to blame for your failure to make a success of your life, is you!

in the ideal world - ya - but in the real world, depending upon time and place (would you like to an East Indian in Uganda when the Blacks were persecuting Indians in the 70's? (yes Black Ugandians via Idia Emin were asshole Black supremist racist assoles (anyone can be a racist dick - same with the Serbians via Religion vs the Bosnians).

so no in the real world your views - though correct in the abstract - is not valid in the real world sadly.

not to say i affirm playing a victim, esp when you are not one, just saying your view is not more than 1/2 correct in a world full of racist dicks the worldwide.

cause it ain't.

peace and thanks for reply.

[RCSaunders]

If you choose to regard life as something to endure and suffer, I have no objection, but it is not necessary. The purpose of life is to live it to the fullest, achieving and being all one can be, which is a fulfilled and satisfied life. If you are suffering, you are not living to your fullest potential and not being fully human, but then most human beings live way below their potential, because living right is hard and they'd rather complain.

I agree, not a fan of playing victim/martyr which seems popular. life is tough via it nature, no need to play a victim more than one is be life itself.

to me it just seemed via your prior post you seemed to fixate on wealth over wisdom. if i was wrong, then i missunderstood your point. that was my understanding and so objected to it.

You were't completely wrong. I think wealth, that which one produces by their own effort, is necessary to a successful life. One does have to eat and at least provide themselves whatever they need to live and learn and achieve whatever they live for. For a human being it's produce or die, unless one chooses to live as a parasite.

Why would you choose a life that ultimately you'll regret because you didn't choose to make it all you could? If you suffer in this life,

our world is not that simple. when and where - the above? if today in America, one can be wise and live my your conscience with little to pay for it.

not so if one was living in 1930's germany/russia.

this much is certain, all that you suffers is the consequence of your own wrong choices and actions.

again, not so simple. yes personal actions do have consequences, but why/when and to what degree?

depends upon the time and the nation.

to do right, will cost you your life if in Germany as a Jew/or russia for that matter, or in Ruwanda in the 90's if you are not Huti (or if your wife is a Ruwandan you can give her to the Hutus to be killed - play the pussy - or you can defend her and end up dead with her) - ya, "life" is not that simple, there will always be the personal compass of right and wrong, but depending upon the place and time that cost changes from little to your life!

But there were many individuals living in Germany and Russia from the 20s to the 40s who not only survived, but prospered, or made the wise choice to leave and became quite successful elsewhere. You also have to remember, what happened in those countries was with the complicity of those who ended up suffering under those regimes, just as those in Venezuela are today suffering the consequences of what they chose politically.

There are some simple principles most people neglect and then want to blame their problems on circumstances their own choices failed to avoid or brought about. The first is that one must always take the long view and understand nothing ever stays the same and that there are consequences for one's choices, both long term and short term. Most people assume things will just stay the same, that the job they have will always be there, they will never get sick, that the economy will stay the way it is, and that they never have learn anything new to deal with an ever changing world. The second is a very simple rule to evade the worst of potential disasters: "don't be there when it happens." The news is constantly filled with tragic stories of terrible things that happen to people because they ignored that simple principle--think about all those who were killed or suffered in the recent race riots.

As for Rwanda, if you know the history, there were those who escaped the horrors (at least 1200 who escaped to Europe) and no one who suffered there who was not complicit in the the views and policies of both the Tutsi and Hutu that lead to the conflict to begin with.

Nothing justifies genocide, or any other kind of oppression, but for individuals, there is no collective solution to the danger of those things to one's self. The only protection against such horrors are whatever measures the individual takes to evade them, which most never do.

Life offers every individual endless potential, but nothing in life is easy, without risk, or guaranteed. Anything is possible but everything has a price. A successful life requires the use of all one's abilities all the time to achieve and be all they can. One must learn all they can and use that knowledge to achieve whatever they can if they are going to succeed, or even survive.

If you suffer, don't blame life, or the world, or society, or others, or luck, or anything else, because the only one to blame for your failure to make a success of your life, is you!

in the ideal world - ya - but in the real world, depending upon time and place (would you like to an East Indian in Uganda when the Blacks were persecuting Indians in the 70's? (yes Black Ugandians via Idia Emin were asshole Black supremist racist assoles (anyone can be a racist dick - same with the Serbians via Religion vs the Bosnians).

so no in the real world your views - though correct in the abstract - is not valid in the real world sadly.

not to say i affirm playing a victim, esp when you are not one, just saying your view is not more than 1/2 correct in a world full of racist dicks the worldwide.

cause it ain't.

peace and thanks for reply.

I understand and agree with your views that the world is full of racist haters, who are the perpetrators of all the horrors you describe. The world has always been filled with those who are willing to use force to subjugate and oppress others. Genocide, cruelty, and oppression are hardly modern inventions, and are made possible by the fact that most individuals see their own fate in terms of some collective which they trust in for their own future, rather than taking full responsibility for their own individual life, to their own detriment.

[gaffo]

If you choose to regard life as something to endure and suffer, I have no objection, but it is not necessary. The purpose of life is to live it to the fullest, achieving and being all one can be, which is a fulfilled and satisfied life. If you are suffering, you are not living to your fullest potential and not being fully human, but then most human beings live way below their potential, because living right is hard and they'd rather complain.

I agree, not a fan of playing victim/martyr which seems popular. life is tough via it nature, no need to play a victim more than one is be life itself.

to me it just seemed via your prior post you seemed to fixate on wealth over wisdom. if i was wrong, then i missunderstood your point. that was my understanding and so objected to it.

You were't completely wrong. I think wealth, that which one produces by their own effort, is necessary to a successful life. One does have to eat and at least provide themselves whatever they need to live and learn and achieve whatever they live for. For a human being it's produce or die, unless one chooses to live as a parasite.

Why would you choose a life that ultimately you'll regret because you didn't choose to make it all you could? If you suffer in this life,

our world is not that simple. when and where - the above? if today in America, one can be wise and live my your conscience with little to pay for it.

not so if one was living in 1930's germany/russia.

this much is certain, all that you suffers is the consequence of your own wrong choices and actions.

again, not so simple. yes personal actions do have consequences, but why/when and to what degree?

depends upon the time and the nation.

to do right, will cost you your life if in Germany as a Jew/or russia for that matter, or in Ruwanda in the 90's if you are not Huti (or if your wife is a Ruwandan you can give her to the Hutus to be killed - play the pussy - or you can defend her and end up dead with her) - ya, "life" is not that simple, there will always be the personal compass of right and wrong, but depending upon the place and time that cost changes from little to your life!

But there were many individuals living in Germany and Russia from the 20s to the 40s who not only survived, but prospered, or made the wise choice to leave and became quite successful elsewhere. You also have to remember, what happened in those countries was with the complicity of those who ended up suffering under those regimes, just as those in Venezuela are today suffering the consequences of what they chose politically.

There are some simple principles most people neglect and then want to blame their problems on circumstances their own choices failed to avoid or brought about. The first is that one must always take the long view and understand nothing ever stays the same and that there are consequences for one's choices, both long term and short term. Most people assume things will just stay the same, that the job they have will always be there, they will never get sick, that the economy will stay the way it is, and that they never have learn anything new to deal with an ever changing world. The second is a very simple rule to evade the worst of potential disasters: "don't be there when it happens." The news is constantly filled with tragic stories of terrible things that happen to people because they ignored that simple principle--think about all those who were killed or suffered in the recent race riots.

As for Rwanda, if you know the history, there were those who escaped the horrors (at least 1200 who escaped to Europe) and no one who suffered there who was not complicit in the the views and policies of both the Tutsi and Hutu that lead to the conflict to begin with.

Nothing justifies genocide, or any other kind of oppression, but for individuals, there is no collective solution to the danger of those things to one's self. The only protection against such horrors are whatever measures the individual takes to evade them, which most never do.

Life offers every individual endless potential, but nothing in life is easy, without risk, or guaranteed. Anything is possible but everything has a price. A successful life requires the use of all one's abilities all the time to achieve and be all they can. One must learn all they can and use that knowledge to achieve whatever they can if they are going to succeed, or even survive.

If you suffer, don't blame life, or the world, or society, or others, or luck, or anything else, because the only one to blame for your failure to make a success of your life, is you!

in the ideal world - ya - but in the real world, depending upon time and place (would you like to an East Indian in Uganda when the Blacks were persecuting Indians in the 70's? (yes Black Ugandians via Idia Emin were asshole Black supremist racist assoles (anyone can be a racist dick - same with the Serbians via Religion vs the Bosnians).

so no in the real world your views - though correct in the abstract - is not valid in the real world sadly.

not to say i affirm playing a victim, esp when you are not one, just saying your view is not more than 1/2 correct in a world full of racist dicks the worldwide.

cause it ain't.

peace and thanks for reply.

I understand and agree with your views that the world is full of racist haters, who are the perpetrators of all the horrors you describe. The world has always been filled with those who are willing to use force to subjugate and oppress others. Genocide, cruelty, and oppression are hardly modern inventions, and are made possible by the fact that most individuals see their own fate in terms of some collective which they trust in for their own future, rather than taking full responsibility for their own individual life, to their own detriment.

Thanks for reply Sir, and you and i fully argee - esp "get out while you can" - per Germany in the early 30's - Jew/and others Gypies died too (we always forget about then - they do not have their own AIPAC so are forgotten sadly) - had 4-6 yrs to get out (the smart ones (assuming they the ability to get a visa - to so cost more money than most Gypsies had, so were fucked - but ya if you had the funds to get out when you could, a wise person would (and many did)).

per Ruwanda, well...........that whole shit-show happened so fast (2- months or so) - most there was fucked before they saw what was happening (imo).

per "the collective", i affirm this and i get the impression you do not? ie. I support "The collective" mindset if it is in support of a good society, i.e. like the "Western societies" - which requires an informed public with a civic mindset that challenges authority as legitmate over thugger authority.

sadly i fear most Americans (note sure about Canucks/Brits/etc..) seem to have lost both a sense of the "collective" - via Good Citizenship (which means being informed, and caring about the society that live in and a will to make sure it remains a good society) - verses and "i got mine, me, me, and me, I'm ok, so i do not care if my society goes to shit because i can just "get out of here" when the shit hits the fan.

so a applaud your individualism mindset - I too am an Individualist (Liberal Libertarian in fact) - but also do not think "all men should be an island", but be an individual in a society that affirms your rights as a person, while supporting/working to make the collective society you live in good/better than it was.

thanks for the intelligent reply!

-------

I've seen you here for some time, but i think this is the first time you and i have conversed.

peace Sir.

[RCSaunders]

Thanks for reply Sir, and you and i fully argee - esp "get out while you can" - per Germany in the early 30's - Jew/and others Gypies died too (we always forget about then - they do not have their own AIPAC so are forgotten sadly) - had 4-6 yrs to get out (the smart ones (assuming they the ability to get a visa - to so cost more money than most Gypsies had, so were fucked - but ya if you had the funds to get out when you could, a wise person would (and many did)).

per Ruwanda, well...........that whole shit-show happened so fast (2- months or so) - most there was fucked before they saw what was happening (imo).

per "the collective", i affirm this and i get the impression you do not? ie. I support "The collective" mindset if it is in support of a good society, i.e. like the "Western societies" - which requires an informed public with a civic mindset that challenges authority as legitmate over thugger authority.

sadly i fear most Americans (note sure about Canucks/Brits/etc..) seem to have lost both a sense of the "collective" - via Good Citizenship (which means being informed, and caring about the society that live in and a will to make sure it remains a good society) - verses and "i got mine, me, me, and me, I'm ok, so i do not care if my society goes to shit because i can just "get out of here" when the shit hits the fan.

so a applaud your individualism mindset - I too am an Individualist (Liberal Libertarian in fact) - but also do not think "all men should be an island", but be an individual in a society that affirms your rights as a person, while supporting/working to make the collective society you live in good/better than it was.

I'm glad you mentioned the Roma (gypsies) which have sadly been neglected and are still persecuted in many parts of Europe, and their entire history is mostly unknown to most. As far as I know, the are Arian and originally from Northern India which explains their unique language and culture. People who are different and independent are always hated.

[Veritas Aequitas]

If you are not enjoying your life there is something wrong with your philosophy.

On the other hand,
If you are enjoying your life there is something wrong with your philosophy.

Human nature is such that what is enjoyable entraps one into a progressive spiral of pleasure, desire, pleasure 2, desire2, pleasure 3, desire3, .. and so on, generating a potential self-destruction.
As such the OP above is not a wise philosophy.

What is most efficient is to manage and modulate 'sufferings' to an optimal level.
In this case, just in case, what is enjoyable turns to be suffering, then, such sufferings will be modulated and limited 'enjoyment' will be optimized.

Note Buddhism and some other spirituality has been promoting the strategy of managing and modulating one's suffering since 2500 years ago and beyond.

Buddhism's 4NT-8FP is a Life Problem Solving Technique.

[RCSaunders]

If you are enjoying your life there is something wrong with your philosophy.

Do you have any idea how insidiously evil that is? Do you hate human beings so much that you cannot bear to believe anyone actually enjoys their life?

H.L. Mencken once said, "A Puritan is someone who is terrified someone somewhere might actually be enjoying his life." I guess it's true of more than Puritans.

[Veritas Aequitas]

If you are enjoying your life there is something wrong with your philosophy.

Do you have any idea how insidiously evil that is? Do you hate human beings so much that you cannot bear to believe anyone actually enjoys their life?

H.L. Mencken once said, "A Puritan is someone who is terrified someone somewhere might actually be enjoying his life." I guess it's true of more than Puritans.

Nah, you are the ignorant one.
You also did not counter my counter-argument, explanation and the alternative I provided.

"Enjoying" is a very subjective term.
Nero, Caligula, Hitler and their likes would have claimed they enjoyed their life.
Thus my point applies to the above and all other evil people who acknowledged they are enjoying their life, i.e.
"If you are enjoying your life there is something wrong with your philosophy".

Your OP is only half-true but at the same time it is also condoning evil.
What I proposed limits evil.
I also provided a more effective and meaningful alternative.

[RCSaunders]

Nero, Caligula, Hitler and their likes would have claimed they enjoyed their life.

You cannot possibly know what Nero, Caligula, Hitler, or anyone else would claim, of course, but if you think they could possibly believe they were enjoying their lives, it certainly says something about you and what you think enjoying life is.

If you believe Nero, Caligula, and Hitler could regard the life they lived as enjoying life, you must believe you could enjoy that kind of life, because that kind of life can be enjoyed by a human being. Which also says something about what you think of human beings.

When I say, "If you are not enjoying your life there is something wrong with your philosophy," I do not mean deluded into thinking you are enjoying life, but actually enjoying it as a human being. The kind of lives Nero, Caligula, Hitler, or any other atrocity committing tyrant or gangster lived cannot possibly be enjoyed as a human being, no matter what they might claim or believe.

Enjoyment is neither experience or pleasure. Life is not what happens to someone, things happen to a rock. Life is action and one's life consists of what they do, and it is what one does that one must be able to enjoy.

One's enjoyment of life is one's appreciation of what one has achieved and made of one's self, what they have accomplished and become because of their own choices and efforts. One cannot enjoy a life that is a failure, one cannot appreciate never having produced anything of value, never having achieved anything difficult, never having overcome a difficulty or solved a problem or never having learned anything worth knowing. That is a life wasted, not enjoyed; it is a life that can only result in regret and despair, no matter how much wealth is accumulated or pleasure is experienced.

The hedonistic pleasures of the vicious (those without virtues) or empty meaningless pleasures that provide a momentary escape from the consciousness of one's own wasted life without any long term satisfaction. The pleasures of the virtuous are a reward for living life as required by human nature and provide satisfaction that is both short-term and long-term.

If you are not enjoying your life, not only is your philosophy wrong, it is leading you to live a wasted and meaningless life, that is probably incapable of even knowing what a human life can and should be, and can only end in failure and despair, like Nero (suicide), Caligula (insane, assisinated), and Hitler (suicide), and they are your idea of possible successful lives.