God given rights. Do you really have any?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Greatest I am
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God given rights. Do you really have any?

Post by Greatest I am »

God given rights. Do you really have any?

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

When a right is given to us by governments, they assume and have a duty to ensure that they are never taken from us. If governments do not accept and do this enforcement duty, then citizens have a corrupted government.

If a right is given to a soul, by god, he would have a duty to ensure that they are never taken from us. The fact that they often are, indicates that he is shirking his duty.

To me, rights are like laws, completely useless and worthless unless they can be enforced by a given power when they are breached.

Do you have any real god given rights, or are god given rights just a feel-good lie that we tell ourselves we have so as to ignore that we have none?

Regards
DL
gaffo
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Re: God given rights. Do you really have any?

Post by gaffo »

Greatest I am wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 2:55 pm God given rights. Do you really have any?

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

When a right is given to us by governments, they assume and have a duty to ensure that they are never taken from us. If governments do not accept and do this enforcement duty, then citizens have a corrupted government.

If a right is given to a soul, by god, he would have a duty to ensure that they are never taken from us. The fact that they often are, indicates that he is shirking his duty.

To me, rights are like laws, completely useless and worthless unless they can be enforced by a given power when they are breached.

Do you have any real god given rights, or are god given rights just a feel-good lie that we tell ourselves we have so as to ignore that we have none?

Regards
DL
We have instinct given rights, via man the social animal - an instinct for what is right and what is not right.

we have a personal duty to strive to do right by that instinct and to foster any government that also affirms that natural law right. and to remove any gov that does not.
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henry quirk
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gia

Post by henry quirk »

Some tangental thinkin'...
henry quirk wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:16 amInstinctually, invariably, unambiguously, a man knows he belongs to himself.

He doesn't reason it, doesn't work out the particulars of it in advance. He never wakens to it, never discovers it. It's not an opinion he arrives at or adopts. His self-possession, his ownness, is essential to what and who he is; it's concrete, non-negotiable, and consistent across all circumstances.

It's real, like the beating of his heart.

A man can be leashed against his will, can be coerced into wearing the shackle, can cringe reflexively when shown the whip, can be born into subordination, but no man ever accepts being property, and -- unless worn down to a nub, made crazy through abuse and deprivation -- will always move away from the yoke when opportunity presents itself.

Not even the slaver, as he appraises man-flesh and affixes a price to it, sees himself as anything other than his own.

Take a moment or more, consider what I'm sayin' here, research the subject. Your task is simple: find a single example of a man who craves slavery, who desires to be property, not because he chooses it but because it's natural to him.

While you're at it, find a single example of fire that freezes.

I expect you'll be as successful with one as you will be the other.

Ownness (a man belongs to himself) is a fact (a true statement; one that jibes with reality).


Now, morality is all about the rightness or wrongness of a man's intent, his choices, his actions and conduct, as he interacts with, or impinges on, another. Seems to me, the validity of a morality rests solely with how well the assessment of wrongness or rightness agrees with reality, or with statements about reality.

So, a moral fact is a true statement; one that aligns with the reality of a man (not his personality, or opinion, or whims, but what is fundamental to him, ownness).


Can I say slavery is wrong is a moral fact?

Yes.

To enslave a man, to make him into property, is wrong not because such a thing is distasteful, or as a matter of opinion, or because utilitarians declare it unbeneficial. Leashing a man is wrong, all the time, everywhere, because the leash violates him, violates what he is.
As a deist, I can argue ownness indeed comes from god, but I'm equally happy to argue ownness is just brute fact.
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Re: God given rights. Do you really have any?

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Greatest I am wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 2:55 pm God given rights. Do you really have any?
There is no such thing as, "rights."

The concept, "rights," always implies someone has claim to something just because they were born. A claim on an education, or healthcare, or an income, or freedom, or protection from crime. Everybody has their own view of what they have a, "right to," without having to earn it, which means someone else is obligated to provide it.

No one has a claim to anything they have not earned or produced by their own effort, or acquired by exchanging what they have produced for it.
Age
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Re: God given rights. Do you really have any?

Post by Age »

RCSaunders wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 2:02 am
Greatest I am wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 2:55 pm God given rights. Do you really have any?
There is no such thing as, "rights."

The concept, "rights," always implies someone has claim to something just because they were born.
If one is born, then do they not have a right to live, and/or to life?
RCSaunders wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 2:02 am A claim on an education, or healthcare, or an income, or freedom, or protection from crime. Everybody has their own view of what they have a, "right to," without having to earn it, which means someone else is obligated to provide it.
If one is born, then have they not earned the right to live or to life?

And, if someone was born and has earned a right to live, and to life, then would that mean someone else is obligated to not take that life away from them. Just like they do not want their life taken away from them?
RCSaunders wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 2:02 am No one has a claim to anything they have not earned or produced by their own effort, or acquired by exchanging what they have produced for it.
From the conception of the sperm and the egg has not that one, on their own effort, earned a right to life?

Or, is absolutely every thing that one done not from their own effort, but the result of some thing else creating them?
Age
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Re: God given rights. Do you really have any?

Post by Age »

Greatest I am wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 2:55 pm God given rights. Do you really have any?

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
Do "other" people find it a coincidence that some people's views of 'God given rights' align with the government, or with the culture, of the country they are in?
Greatest I am wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 2:55 pm When a right is given to us by governments, they assume and have a duty to ensure that they are never taken from us. If governments do not accept and do this enforcement duty, then citizens have a corrupted government.

If a right is given to a soul, by god, he would have a duty to ensure that they are never taken from us. The fact that they often are, indicates that he is shirking his duty.

To me, rights are like laws, completely useless and worthless unless they can be enforced by a given power when they are breached.

Do you have any real god given rights, or are god given rights just a feel-good lie that we tell ourselves we have so as to ignore that we have none?

Regards
DL
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RCSaunders
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Re: God given rights. Do you really have any?

Post by RCSaunders »

Age wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 3:55 am If one is born, then do they not have a right to live, and/or to life? ...
If one is born, then have they not earned the right to live or to life? ...
At whose expense? Are you obligated to give up your life to keep someone else alive?
Age wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 3:55 am And, if someone was born and has earned a right to live, ...
You mean he supplied his own food, shelter, and all that he needs to live himself? Because otherwise he hasn't earned anything. He's just a parasite.
Age wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 3:55 am ... then would that mean someone else is obligated to not take that life away from them. Just like they do not want their life taken away from them?
Someone who is earning their own way in life does not take anything away from anyone else, not their time, not their wealth, and not their life. It is only those who believe they have a, "right," to what they haven't earned or produced themselves who must take things away from others to supply their unearned rights.
Age wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 3:55 am
RCSaunders wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 2:02 am No one has a claim to anything they have not earned or produced by their own effort, or acquired by exchanging what they have produced for it.
Or, is absolutely every thing that one done not from their own effort, but the result of some thing else creating them?
Even a parasite must exert some effort to stay alive. If you don't eat, or drink, or breath, and, unless you steal it from someone else, work to support yourself and supply all your own needs, you will die.

If you believe in rights, do you have a right to force someone else to feed you, clothe you, provide your medical care, your education and your safety? If you do, you are the one others need to protect their lives from.

[I do not for a moment imply any of that is your view.]
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Re: God given rights. Do you really have any?

Post by Age »

RCSaunders wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 12:38 pm
Age wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 3:55 am If one is born, then do they not have a right to live, and/or to life? ...
If one is born, then have they not earned the right to live or to life? ...
At whose expense?
No one in particular.
RCSaunders wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 12:38 pm Are you obligated to give up your life to keep someone else alive?
Not that I am aware of. But I think you have misinterpreted what I was asking.

Also, you did not answer my clarifying questions. It appears that you have assumed I was pointing something out, which, by the way, had absolutely nothing to do with your clarifying questions. I was just asking if one is born, then do they have a right to live?
RCSaunders wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 12:38 pm
Age wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 3:55 am And, if someone was born and has earned a right to live, ...
You mean he supplied his own food, shelter, and all that he needs to live himself?
No, not at all. All the new born human beings that I know of do not supply their own food, shelter, nor all they need to live?
RCSaunders wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 12:38 pm Because otherwise he hasn't earned anything. He's just a parasite.
So, how long after a human being is born do they transgress from being "just a parasite" to something else?

RCSaunders wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 12:38 pm
Age wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 3:55 am ... then would that mean someone else is obligated to not take that life away from them. Just like they do not want their life taken away from them?
Someone who is earning their own way in life does not take anything away from anyone else, not their time, not their wealth, and not their life.
I would not be so sure about your' " someone who is earning their (supposed) "own way in life" does not take anything away from anyone else, ... " statement here. But anyway I was referring to when one is born. I am not really sure what you are referring to here.
RCSaunders wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 12:38 pm It is only those who believe they have a, "right," to what they haven't earned or produced themselves who must take things away from others to supply their unearned rights.
Again I was referring to 'when one is born'. I do not know of any when born that believe they have a "right", to anything. I was just asking you; If one is born, then does that new born have a right to live? Maybe I did not make it clear enough that I was referring to a new born.
RCSaunders wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 12:38 pm
Age wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 3:55 am
Or, is absolutely every thing that one done not from their own effort, but the result of some thing else creating them?
Even a parasite must exert some effort to stay alive. If you don't eat, or drink, or breath, and, unless you steal it from someone else, work to support yourself and supply all your own needs, you will die.
Does a new born human being, for example, "steal" from their mother, parents, or caregivers?
RCSaunders wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 12:38 pm If you believe in rights, do you have a right to force someone else to feed you, clothe you, provide your medical care, your education and your safety?


I neither believe nor disbelieve anything.
RCSaunders wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 12:38 pm If you do, you are the one others need to protect their lives from.
You are completely off track from what I was referring to. I was just referring to a new born. If one is born, then do they have a right to live?

I do not think a new born can force someone else to feed them. But is it expected that a new born human being, in the days of when this is being written, is fed, clothed, provided with medical care, education (one day), and their safety? When a new born comes out of the womb and into life, then do they have a right to this Life?
RCSaunders wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 12:38 pm [I do not for a moment imply any of that is your view.]
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Re: God given rights. Do you really have any?

Post by surreptitious57 »

When one is born they absolutely have a right to life because it is automatically granted to all human beings
And one has all the other fundamental human rights too on point of birth as laid down by the United Nations
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Re: God given rights. Do you really have any?

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Age wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 11:32 am When a new born comes out of the womb and into life, then do they have a right to this Life?
I do not know what your question means, because you never told me what you mean by a right to something. Does it mean someone or something is obligated to provide it? If that's what it means, there is no such thing as a right.

Does it mean one may do whatever they can to stay alive without someone else's interference? I would agree to that, except there is no guarantee. Don't see how that would relate to a new-born.

I think there is something essentially wrong with a person who brings children into this world for whom such a question would ever come up. My children were provided for because I loved my children, not because they had a right to anything (which they didn't).
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Re: God given rights. Do you really have any?

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RCSaunders wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 7:57 pm
Age wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 11:32 am When a new born comes out of the womb and into life, then do they have a right to this Life?
I do not know what your question means, because you never told me what you mean by a right to something. Does it mean someone or something is obligated to provide it? If that's what it means, there is no such thing as a right.

Does it mean one may do whatever they can to stay alive without someone else's interference? I would agree to that, except there is no guarantee. Don't see how that would relate to a new-born.

I think there is something essentially wrong with a person who brings children into this world for whom such a question would ever come up. My children were provided for because I loved my children, not because they had a right to anything (which they didn't).
Okay. So, from your perspective, NO child has a right to life, nor to live. That was all I was asking.
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Re: God given rights. Do you really have any?

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Age wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 9:30 am Okay. So, from your perspective, NO child has a right to life, nor to live. That was all I was asking.
It's not a matter of perspective, it's a matter of principle. If a right means a claim on something that has not been earned or produced by one's self, no one has a, "right," to anything, because it means someone else must provide it. If one has a right to what they have not earned or produced themselves it means they have a right to steal (or to accept what has been stolen from someone else). Do you believe one has a, "right," to steal or accept stolen goods?

If you absolutely insist on using the word, "rights," there can only be rights, "to do and keep." There are no rights, "to be given anything." In that sense only, you have a right to keep yourself alive, a right to whatever property you have produced or earned, and a right to do anything you can. You do not have a right to anything that must be provided by someone else.
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Re: God given rights. Do you really have any?

Post by Age »

RCSaunders wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 12:32 pm
Age wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 9:30 am Okay. So, from your perspective, NO child has a right to life, nor to live. That was all I was asking.
It's not a matter of perspective, it's a matter of principle.
But you have already made it quite clear that, to you, children do not have a right to anything, which obviously includes life, and living. That was all I was asking for.
RCSaunders wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 12:32 pm If a right means a claim on something that has not been earned or produced by one's self, no one has a, "right," to anything, because it means someone else must provide it. If one has a right to what they have not earned or produced themselves it means they have a right to steal (or to accept what has been stolen from someone else). Do you believe one has a, "right," to steal or accept stolen goods?
This is the most ludicrous and absurd question to ask me, for a couple of reasons, so I will just leave it alone, for now. The question is also so far astray from what I asked and have said.
RCSaunders wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 12:32 pm If you absolutely insist on using the word, "rights," there can only be rights, "to do and keep."
Considering this whole thread could be centered around the word 'rights' I am not sure why you would say, "If I absolutely insist on using the words "rights". I also could not be bothered going into why you would even think this, let alone say it out aloud in words.

RCSaunders wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 12:32 pm There are no rights, "to be given anything." In that sense only, you have a right to keep yourself alive, a right to whatever property you have produced or earned, and a right to do anything you can. You do not have a right to anything that must be provided by someone else.
I was only asking you questions in reference to the evolving unborn and the newly born. That was all.
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Re: God given rights. Do you really have any?

Post by Greatest I am »

gaffo wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 9:00 pm
We have instinct given rights, via man the social animal - an instinct for what is right and what is not right.

we have a personal duty to strive to do right by that instinct and to foster any government that also affirms that natural law right. and to remove any gov that does not.
I don't know if being able to judge is an instinct, given how often we are wrong in our judgements, but I won't argue for now.

What instinct given rights do you see our instincts giving us, if that is what you meant, before adding via man, which kind of screws up your instinct given statement.

Perhaps it is just the way I read you.

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DL
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Re: God given rights. Do you really have any?

Post by Greatest I am »

RCSaunders wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 2:02 am
Greatest I am wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 2:55 pm God given rights. Do you really have any?
There is no such thing as, "rights."

The concept, "rights," always implies someone has claim to something just because they were born. A claim on an education, or healthcare, or an income, or freedom, or protection from crime. Everybody has their own view of what they have a, "right to," without having to earn it, which means someone else is obligated to provide it.

No one has a claim to anything they have not earned or produced by their own effort, or acquired by exchanging what they have produced for it.
What many forget is that the first duty of those who claim a right, is that they also have the duty to insure that all share the rights he claims for himself.

Regards
DL
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