Free agent cannot be created

So what's really going on?

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Logik
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Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by Logik » Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:40 am

Dimebag wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:24 am
I guess it depends on a persons purpose for doing philosophy. If your aim is simply to debate your point ad infinitum then I guess that is being achieved, but if your aim is to have an honest conversation with the possibility of both parties learning something then I think it’s important to not keep your positions so heavily fortified in the rare event that you might have something to learn from others.

I’m not point the finger at you in particular but this conversation in general is basically like WWI trench warfare.
I don't particularly care about the honest/dishonest distinction when it comes to conversation - people are often far more ignorant than they are malicious. They don't know what they don't know.

Worse yet, those pursuing philosophy often have no clue what answers they are even looking for, nor do they recognise the flaws in their own positions.

It's like a puppy chasing its own tail. Amusing to watch, but that's about it.

surreptitious57
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Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by surreptitious57 » Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:49 am


Dogmatism is the death of the intellect so philosophical openness to new ideas is more preferable

Logik
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Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by Logik » Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:53 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:49 am

Dogmatism is the death of the intellect so philosophical openness to new ideas is more preferable
It depends on your epistemic taxonomy.

Some see dogmatism and skepticism as the only two valid epistemic positions with coherentism and foundationalism both being subsets of dogmatism.

Others would argue that coherentism, foundationalism, dogmatism and skepticism are four distinct positions in epistemology.

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-1-
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Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by -1- » Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:33 am

Age wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:11 pm
-1- wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:19 pm
Age wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:04 am

(1.) Just wondering is there any thing that is actually incompatible between what is in religion and what is empirically observed as being true?

I just ask because I do not see any incompatibility between the two.

(2.)What is bullshit in religions?
(1.) Religion: there are supernatural forces affecting the physical world. Examples: Virgin birth; ascending to heaven; healing the blind with just putting the hand over her eyes; prayers being returned with positive results.
Science: Prayer's effect is random and statistically ineffectual. Nobody can move against laws of nature, such as defeating gravity by employing supernatural forces. Healing the blind with putting a hand over her eyes exists only in fairy tales.

(2.) Bullshit in religion: denial of the evolutionary process.

I have yet to see denial of the evolutionary process in religion. In fact in some religious texts it clearly, to me anyway, states the evolutionary process.
-1- wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:19 pm
Accepting that some people have prophetic abilities.

Are you saying that it is absolutely impossible for EVERY, and ALL, human being to be able to prophesize?
-1- wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:19 pm
Accepting that one person on Earth is god.
To you, could it be possible?
-1- wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:19 pm
Accepting that one person on Earth can communicate directly with god.
To you, could it be possible?

Accepting that the religious are righteous and the heathen are lost sheep.

Is there one that is truly religious or righteous?
-1- wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:19 pm
Rejecting that the Earth is very nearly of a ball shape.
Does it state in religious text that the earth is not very nearly of a ball shape?
-1- wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:19 pm
Insisting there is an afterlife.
Well how could there not be an afterlife?

There is either Life, which is eternal, or, there is life, with some thing after it.
-1- wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:19 pm
Insisting to know the nature of the afterlife.
The nature of the, so called, 'afterlife' is extremely simple and easy to understand, and to KNOW.
-1- wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:19 pm
Insisting on claims of knowledge how to behave on Earth to direct a human to a spot in the afterlife.
Again, very simple and easy to understand, and KNOW.
-1- wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:19 pm
These are just some of the bullshit teachings, and some of the incompatibilities between religious tenets or dogmas, and scientific findings.
From science explanation and understanding of how the; Virgin birth; ascending to heaven; healing the blind with just putting the hand over her eyes; prayers being returned with positive results, can happen, and will happen, will be very easily understood.

Absolutely EVERY thing is relative to the observer. And, you obviously read, and read into, things differently than I do.
-1- wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:19 pm
If you say that some of the examples of religious beliefs or dogmas here are only true to some specific religions, you're right.
But i would have NEVER of had said that.
-1- wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:19 pm
But they are still religions. You can't deny that, Age, even if you wanted to.
WHY would you even begin to ASSUME such a thing?
[/quote]

SEveral spots you ask if it were not possible. yes, it is possible. but because something is possible, it is not necessarily probable.

Is it possible that Satan (according to your belief) is more powerful than God? Yes, it is possible.

Is it possible that Jesus the Savior is actually Satan, the Anti-Christ? Yes, it is possible.

So you see, just because something is possible, it is not very probable, and most dogmas or tenets in religious beliefs are darn right stupid like a toad.

Age
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Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by Age » Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:47 am

-1- wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:33 am
Age wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:11 pm
-1- wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:19 pm


(1.) Religion: there are supernatural forces affecting the physical world. Examples: Virgin birth; ascending to heaven; healing the blind with just putting the hand over her eyes; prayers being returned with positive results.
Science: Prayer's effect is random and statistically ineffectual. Nobody can move against laws of nature, such as defeating gravity by employing supernatural forces. Healing the blind with putting a hand over her eyes exists only in fairy tales.

(2.) Bullshit in religion: denial of the evolutionary process.

I have yet to see denial of the evolutionary process in religion. In fact in some religious texts it clearly, to me anyway, states the evolutionary process.
-1- wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:19 pm
Accepting that some people have prophetic abilities.

Are you saying that it is absolutely impossible for EVERY, and ALL, human being to be able to prophesize?
-1- wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:19 pm
Accepting that one person on Earth is god.
To you, could it be possible?
-1- wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:19 pm
Accepting that one person on Earth can communicate directly with god.
To you, could it be possible?

Accepting that the religious are righteous and the heathen are lost sheep.

Is there one that is truly religious or righteous?
-1- wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:19 pm
Rejecting that the Earth is very nearly of a ball shape.
Does it state in religious text that the earth is not very nearly of a ball shape?
-1- wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:19 pm
Insisting there is an afterlife.
Well how could there not be an afterlife?

There is either Life, which is eternal, or, there is life, with some thing after it.
-1- wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:19 pm
Insisting to know the nature of the afterlife.
The nature of the, so called, 'afterlife' is extremely simple and easy to understand, and to KNOW.
-1- wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:19 pm
Insisting on claims of knowledge how to behave on Earth to direct a human to a spot in the afterlife.
Again, very simple and easy to understand, and KNOW.
-1- wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:19 pm
These are just some of the bullshit teachings, and some of the incompatibilities between religious tenets or dogmas, and scientific findings.
From science explanation and understanding of how the; Virgin birth; ascending to heaven; healing the blind with just putting the hand over her eyes; prayers being returned with positive results, can happen, and will happen, will be very easily understood.

Absolutely EVERY thing is relative to the observer. And, you obviously read, and read into, things differently than I do.
-1- wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:19 pm
If you say that some of the examples of religious beliefs or dogmas here are only true to some specific religions, you're right.
But i would have NEVER of had said that.
-1- wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:19 pm
But they are still religions. You can't deny that, Age, even if you wanted to.
WHY would you even begin to ASSUME such a thing?
SEveral spots you ask if it were not possible. yes, it is possible. but because something is possible, it is not necessarily probable.

Is it possible that Satan (according to your belief) is more powerful than God? Yes, it is possible.

Is it possible that Jesus the Savior is actually Satan, the Anti-Christ? Yes, it is possible.

So you see, just because something is possible, it is not very probable, and most dogmas or tenets in religious beliefs are darn right stupid like a toad.
[/quote]

I would first have to have a belief.
I do not have a belief.
Therefore, it is not possible.

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Sculptor
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Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by Sculptor » Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:12 pm

bahman wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 6:46 am
Here is the argument:

1) Causation requires knowledge
2) Knowledge is structured
3) Therefore any caused thing is structured
4) Anything which is structured cannot be free
5) Therefore one cannot cause a thing which is free

The first premise is correct since causation always aim to an end.
The second premise is correct too because knowledge is about the relation between concepts.
Three is the result of one and two.
Four is correct too since the behavior of anything which is structured is a function of behavior of parts.
Five follows from three and four.
1) False
3) therefore false
4) false
5) true but non sequitur.

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bahman
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Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by bahman » Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:42 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:12 pm
bahman wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 6:46 am
Here is the argument:

1) Causation requires knowledge
2) Knowledge is structured
3) Therefore any caused thing is structured
4) Anything which is structured cannot be free
5) Therefore one cannot cause a thing which is free

The first premise is correct since causation always aim to an end.
The second premise is correct too because knowledge is about the relation between concepts.
Three is the result of one and two.
Four is correct too since the behavior of anything which is structured is a function of behavior of parts.
Five follows from three and four.
1) False
Can you give me a counterexample?
Sculptor wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:12 pm
3) therefore false
Therefore, true. Unless you could give an counter exmple.
Sculptor wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:12 pm
4) false
Very true.
Sculptor wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:12 pm
5) true but non sequitur.
Very true.

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Sculptor
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Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by Sculptor » Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:10 pm

bahman wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:42 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:12 pm
bahman wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 6:46 am
Here is the argument:

1) Causation requires knowledge
2) Knowledge is structured
3) Therefore any caused thing is structured
4) Anything which is structured cannot be free
5) Therefore one cannot cause a thing which is free

The first premise is correct since causation always aim to an end.
The second premise is correct too because knowledge is about the relation between concepts.
Three is the result of one and two.
Four is correct too since the behavior of anything which is structured is a function of behavior of parts.
Five follows from three and four.
1) False
Can you give me a counterexample?
Sculptor wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:12 pm
3) therefore false
Therefore, true. Unless you could give an counter exmple.

Of causation needing knowledge??
Easy.
Everything that happened since the dawn of time, to the moment I was born happened without my knowledge

Sculptor wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:12 pm
4) false
Very true.
Sculptor wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:12 pm
5) true but non sequitur.
Very true.

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-1-
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Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by -1- » Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:21 pm

Age wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:47 am

I would first have to have a belief.
I do not have a belief.
Therefore, it is not possible.
This is the stupidest argument I've ever seen anywhere on the internet.

You are saying that if you don't have a belief in it, it is not possible.

This argument is easy to defeat.

You never had a belief in anything before you were born.

Therefore nothing was possible before you were born.

Yet things happened before you were born.

Therefore they were possible.

Therefore it is not true that your belief determines if something is possible or impossible.

Age
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Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by Age » Tue Apr 28, 2020 1:04 am

-1- wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:21 pm
Age wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:47 am

I would first have to have a belief.
I do not have a belief.
Therefore, it is not possible.
This is the stupidest argument I've ever seen anywhere on the internet.

You are saying that if you don't have a belief in it, it is not possible.
No I am NOT saying that at all.

In fact what I am saying means nothing at all like that.

You used the words "is it possible" and "according to your belief". I was just stipulating that I do not have such a belief at all. Therefore, what I said and wrote above


-1- wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:21 pm
This argument is easy to defeat.

You never had a belief in anything before you were born.

Therefore nothing was possible before you were born.

Yet things happened before you were born.

Therefore they were possible.

Therefore it is not true that your belief determines if something is possible or impossible.
You misconstrued what I said from the beginning, and thus you misunderstood me from the outset.

The so called "argument" you are defeating here is NOT my argument. The only argument you are defeating here is your own argument, which was based on some assumption of your own making.

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bahman
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Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by bahman » Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:36 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:10 pm

Of causation needing knowledge??
Easy.
Everything that happened since the dawn of time, to the moment I was born happened without my knowledge
Your birth is the result of the knowledge which is structured in your DNA.

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Sculptor
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Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by Sculptor » Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:44 pm

bahman wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:36 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:10 pm

Of causation needing knowledge??
Easy.
Everything that happened since the dawn of time, to the moment I was born happened without my knowledge
Your birth is the result of the knowledge which is structured in your DNA.
DNA is not knowledge.
The sun did not know how to be created, nor the stars, nor the nebulae.

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bahman
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Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by bahman » Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:04 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:44 pm
bahman wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:36 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:10 pm

Of causation needing knowledge??
Easy.
Everything that happened since the dawn of time, to the moment I was born happened without my knowledge
Your birth is the result of the knowledge which is structured in your DNA.
DNA is not knowledge.
The sun did not know how to be created, nor the stars, nor the nebulae.
So DNA is information?

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Sculptor
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Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by Sculptor » Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:56 pm

bahman wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:04 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:44 pm
bahman wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:36 pm

Your birth is the result of the knowledge which is structured in your DNA.
DNA is not knowledge.
The sun did not know how to be created, nor the stars, nor the nebulae.
So DNA is information?
There is a sense in which you are able to say that DNA contains information. Information is not Knowledge. Knowledge requires a knower.

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bahman
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Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by bahman » Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:49 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:56 pm
bahman wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:04 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:44 pm


DNA is not knowledge.
The sun did not know how to be created, nor the stars, nor the nebulae.
So DNA is information?
There is a sense in which you are able to say that DNA contains information. Information is not Knowledge. Knowledge requires a knower.
There is of course information in your DNA. Now replace knowledge by information in my argument to see what you get:

1) Causation requires information
2) Information is structured
3) Therefore any caused thing is structured
4) Anything which is structured cannot be free
5) Therefore free agent cannot be caused

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