Lockdown Protestors

For philosophical reflections on the COVID-19 pandemic. How can philosophy help us to understand it, to combat it and to survive it?

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Gary Childress
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Re: Age

Post by Gary Childress »

Sculptor wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 11:05 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:00 pm
henry quirk wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 7:23 pm But if you add another fifty thousand deaths on top of that sixty thousand, from something else that did not exist a month or two early, then some would say that is a huge spike.

Depends on how you look at the numbers. Fifty or 100 thousand additional deaths, measured against the global death numbers is miniscule. 50 or a hundred thousand new deaths measured against the average death rate for a population of 500 thousand is devastating.

-----

It seems to me: a lot of your concerns about my reasoning are addressed by posts in this thread (up-thread) and others in the beer virus subforum. Mebbe you wanna go review some of those posts.

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are you against yourself for the wrong things you do just to obtain money also?

What wrong things have I done to make a buck?
Plus, I don't know about the US but here all of the deaths have been older people with serious underlying medical conditions..
FALSE
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavir ... ographics/
VT is not from the US. Looking at the stats from the website above it appears that VT may be right. It looks like even in the US the vast, overwhelming majority of deaths have been people with underlying health conditions. Although that's still pretty saddening and concerning.
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Age

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Sculptor wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 11:05 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:00 pm
henry quirk wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 7:23 pm But if you add another fifty thousand deaths on top of that sixty thousand, from something else that did not exist a month or two early, then some would say that is a huge spike.

Depends on how you look at the numbers. Fifty or 100 thousand additional deaths, measured against the global death numbers is miniscule. 50 or a hundred thousand new deaths measured against the average death rate for a population of 500 thousand is devastating.

-----

It seems to me: a lot of your concerns about my reasoning are addressed by posts in this thread (up-thread) and others in the beer virus subforum. Mebbe you wanna go review some of those posts.

-----

are you against yourself for the wrong things you do just to obtain money also?

What wrong things have I done to make a buck?
Plus, I don't know about the US but here all of the deaths have been older people with serious underlying medical conditions..
FALSE
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavir ... ographics/
Can you read? Do you mean 'FALSE' as in I DO know what the US stats are? Do you know what the word HERE means?
Age
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Re: Age

Post by Age »

henry quirk wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 7:23 pm But if you add another fifty thousand deaths on top of that sixty thousand, from something else that did not exist a month or two early, then some would say that is a huge spike.

Depends on how you look at the numbers.
Of course it does.

In fact, every thing depends on how you look at 'it'.

Absolutely every thing is relative to the observer, and how the observer is looking at things is dependent upon their already gained views.

And, what an observer sees depends on what they already assume and/or believes is true.
henry quirk wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 7:23 pmFifty or 100 thousand additional deaths, measured against the global death numbers is miniscule.
But why did you change this obviously usa only number of deaths, and then measure it against a global number?
henry quirk wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 7:23 pm50 or a hundred thousand new deaths measured against the average death rate for a population of 500 thousand is devastating.
Are you forgetting that the more than 50,000 deaths in the usa alone in just two months from the corona virus is on top of all the other death's?

Remember there is still over another nine months to go before we work out how many will die in one year.

So, if fifty to one hundred thousand more deaths measured against the global number of deaths is miniscule to you, then what is fifty to one hundred thousand more deaths measured against the average death rate of the USA number of deaths, which is what the number that fifty to one hundred thousand MORE is actually being measured against?

It would really help if you would just answer the clarifying questions Honestly, without the continual changing and/or distorting the figures in relation to other things.

Also, remember this thread is about 'lock down', and what the TRUE numbers would be without lock down. These MORE death numbers given here are only so "low" because of lock downs. The fifty to one hundred thousand figure might be higher, and that is WITH lock down. So, imagine what would have been without and lock downs at all.
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henry quirk wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 7:23 pmIt seems to me: a lot of your concerns about my reasoning are addressed by posts in this thread (up-thread) and others in the beer virus subforum. Mebbe you wanna go review some of those posts.
When, and IF, you answer my clarifying questions Honestly, then "your reasoning" speaks for itself. I am just putting a spotlight on your so called "reasoning".

What do you think or believe you are "reasoning" out here actually?

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henry quirk wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 7:23 pmare you against yourself for the wrong things you do just to obtain money also?
Yes
henry quirk wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 7:23 pmWhat wrong things have I done to make a buck?
Putting you and your greed before others needs.
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henry quirk
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Re: Robot Overlord

Post by henry quirk »

commonsense wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 10:42 pm
henry quirk wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 9:20 pm Quarantines were not intended to rescue anyone other than healthcare workers.

Yeah, I know that.

The necessary consequence: delayin' group immunity and prolongin' the misery.

Robbin' Paul to pay Peter.
I couldna said it better mself
Sure you could: all I have is my limited monkey brain, but you've got the computin' capacity of *Colossus.

Now, would you say this...

The mitigation was unnecessary. The only hospital system that was overtly, damagingly, stressed was that of New York State (and you can toss New Jersey in with it).

Almost everywhere else in the U.S. hospitalizations never reached critical levels.

But, Henry, that's because of mitigation... :roll:

Nope, cuz -- again -- mitigation (stay at home orders, shuttering non-essentials, etc.) has been haphazard, largely an unenforced honor system. There's been no consistency from state to state, and among various locations within states.

Anecdotally, I -- again -- point to my own parish (Acadia, in Louisiana) wherein lots of folks are out & about, where a lot of interactions are happenin' and where there's been no major beer virus outbreak. Non-anecdotally, several states never locked down and never exploded with beer virus.









*movie reference; No Prize & a 🌟 goes to the gal or guy who names it
Age
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Re: Age

Post by Age »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:00 pm
henry quirk wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 7:23 pm But if you add another fifty thousand deaths on top of that sixty thousand, from something else that did not exist a month or two early, then some would say that is a huge spike.

Depends on how you look at the numbers. Fifty or 100 thousand additional deaths, measured against the global death numbers is miniscule. 50 or a hundred thousand new deaths measured against the average death rate for a population of 500 thousand is devastating.

-----

It seems to me: a lot of your concerns about my reasoning are addressed by posts in this thread (up-thread) and others in the beer virus subforum. Mebbe you wanna go review some of those posts.

-----

are you against yourself for the wrong things you do just to obtain money also?

What wrong things have I done to make a buck?
Plus, I don't know about the US but here all of the deaths have been older people with serious underlying medical conditions. Frankly I think it's ridiculous to include a 96 year old in a rest home, with dementia and multiple health problems, in the coronavirus statistics. Nearly all of the people who have died here have been from a small number of aged care facilities.
Look, I could not care less if 99% or more of the human population was wiped out. In fact I, the earth, and just about every animal on earth would be quite happy if that many human beings were wiped out. But what was the actual cause of death?

If what caused the death was corona virus, then that is the cause of death. Take it up with the doctor/s who are writing the death certificates if you are unhappy with it.

Also, if any one was going to die of old age, a heart attack, the flu, or any other condition a few months, a few weeks, or even a few minutes later, then besides the very fact that we will know, it also does not matter anyway. If someone dies with corona virus and that was what was said to cause the death, then without an autopsy, then that is it. If the truth be known it could be more than half of those who die in rest homes die of drug overdoses than of the actual cause written on the death certificate anyway. But that is how it is.

Now I am just using the numbers provided in this thread to look at them in relation to 'lock down protestors', which is what this thread is about.

At the rate the corona virus is spreading among human beings, then it is not hard to imagine how much more widespread this virus would be if lock downs were not made.

Anyone can protest all they want for all I care about being supposedly "locked down", but are they going to cry and blame someone or something else if someone close to them dies of the corona virus? Are they going to blame them self if they contracted the virus and then it was them who passed it onto the one that died? This would be like if the parent of an unvaccinated child that died of that preventable illness then cried and tried to blame someone or something else for that death.

By all means break the lock down laws for all I care because of greed and the love of money but whose fault is it if they get the corona virus?
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henry quirk
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Robot Overlord conclusion vs Monkey Brain assessments

Post by henry quirk »

Could we have been right where we are or even better off without quarantines if we just had the supplies available?
Certainly.


Again: if we had simply encouraged the vulnerable to hunker down, and let everyone alone to go about their business, we'd have probably seen only slightly higher death numbers than we see now, and the economy would be fine.

We over-reacted: wrecked the economy, blunted natural group immunity, made a crappy situation much worse than it had to be, and for what?

So, some folks can make money, so some folks can go after Orange Man, and -- most obvious -- so some folks in power can expand that power.

There was a time such things were considered treasonous and folks would swing at the end of ropes.
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henry quirk
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Re: Lockdown Protestors

Post by henry quirk »

But why did you change this obviously usa only number of deaths, and then measure it against a global number?

To illustrate that scale matters. Up-thread I cite the approximate number of global deaths yearly, and from 1-20-20 to whatever day it was I made the post.

U.S. beer virus numbers, global beer virus numbers: chicken feed by comparison.


Are you forgetting that the more than 50,000 deaths in the usa alone in just two months from the corona virus is on top of all the other death's?

Not at all: as I say, those numbers are padded. I'll lay five bucks on it.


there is still over another nine months to go

Sure. Let's see where we stand at year's end. Better yet, let's see what we know by year's end. I got another fiver sez a whole whack of folks are gonna be squirmin' tryin' to get out from under the crisis that never shoulda been.


It would really help if you would just answer the clarifying questions Honestly,

Yeah, when you pull out that card (and you've done it to me before), I'm done. I'm bein' honest, answerin' honest. If you can't follow my examples, say so. Easier to, in effect, call me dishonest, I guess.

Well, I ain't havin' it.

'nuff said to you, in this thread, on this subject.
Last edited by henry quirk on Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
commonsense
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Re: Robot Overlord

Post by commonsense »

henry quirk wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 1:53 am
commonsense wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 10:42 pm I couldna said it better mself
Sure you could: all I have is my limited monkey brain, but you've got the computin' capacity of *Colossus.
You mean from Dr Corbin’s Project?
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henry quirk
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Re: Robot Overlord

Post by henry quirk »

commonsense wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:21 am
henry quirk wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 1:53 am
commonsense wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 10:42 pm I couldna said it better mself
Sure you could: all I have is my limited monkey brain, but you've got the computin' capacity of *Colossus.
You mean from Dr Corbin’s Project?
Forbin...close enough.

🌟NO PRIZE🌟
Last edited by henry quirk on Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
Impenitent
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Re: Heard immunity

Post by Impenitent »

commonsense wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:40 pm
Impenitent wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 6:18 pm "These go to eleven" - Nigel Tufnel

-Imp
Got it, except does “These” mean something in particular?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMSV4OteqBE

-Imp
Age
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Re: Robot Overlord

Post by Age »

henry quirk wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 1:53 am
commonsense wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 10:42 pm
henry quirk wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 9:20 pm Quarantines were not intended to rescue anyone other than healthcare workers.

Yeah, I know that.

The necessary consequence: delayin' group immunity and prolongin' the misery.

Robbin' Paul to pay Peter.
I couldna said it better mself
Sure you could: all I have is my limited monkey brain, but you've got the computin' capacity of *Colossus.

Now, would you say this...

The mitigation was unnecessary. The only hospital system that was overtly, damagingly, stressed was that of New York State (and you can toss New Jersey in with it).

Almost everywhere else in the U.S. hospitalizations never reached critical levels.

But, Henry, that's because of mitigation... :roll:

Nope, cuz -- again -- mitigation (stay at home orders, shuttering non-essentials, etc.) has been haphazard, largely an unenforced honor system. There's been no consistency from state to state, and among various locations within states.
Why do you keep thinking that inconsistent or haphazardly made and/or unenforced rules among different states in one country, or even within those states themselves, has any bearing on numbers? "Haphazard" and "inconsistent" made up rules between different people is not the real issue here.

The fact that people have been separating themselves from each other is what is reducing the numbers affected, and thus reducing the numbers of deaths also.
henry quirk wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 1:53 amAnecdotally, I -- again -- point to my own parish (Acadia, in Louisiana) wherein lots of folks are out & about, where a lot of interactions are happenin' and where there's been no major beer virus outbreak.
What number makes a "major" outbreak to "Henry quirk"?

Does one less death make it less 'major'?

It may not to 'you', but it might to the family who lost a loved one?

Also, what number is a 'lot of folks' out and about, to "Henry quirk"?
henry quirk wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 1:53 amNon-anecdotally, several states never locked down and never exploded with beer virus.
So, why have some states with lock down rules "exploded" (whatever that means) with CORONA virus? And, do you believe the numbers with CORONA virus in those states with lock down laws would be lesser if there were no lock down laws?

Also, are there really some states in usa that have not changed at all in regards to the way people interact with each?

henry quirk wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 1:53 am*movie reference; No Prize & a 🌟 goes to the gal or guy who names it
Can you name a state that has absolutely had no rules at all made in regards to changing the way people interact with, or are locked down from, each other?
Age
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Re: Robot Overlord conclusion vs Monkey Brain assessments

Post by Age »

henry quirk wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:05 am Could we have been right where we are or even better off without quarantines if we just had the supplies available?
Certainly.


Again: if we had simply encouraged the vulnerable to hunker down, and let everyone alone to go about their business, we'd have probably seen only slightly higher death numbers than we see now, and the economy would be fine.
But what has the "economy" got to do with any of this?

Why is the first thing 'you', adult human beings, mostly think of in any so called "crisis" is the 'economy'?

The economy is of absolute no importance at all in regards to matters of life and living.
henry quirk wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:05 amWe over-reacted: wrecked the economy, blunted natural group immunity, made a crappy situation much worse than it had to be, and for what?
I do not know. Why do you human beings often over-react and make things worse?

What was the purpose for doing that? In fact, what is your purpose for living for anyway?
henry quirk wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:05 amSo, some folks can make money, so some folks can go after Orange Man, and -- most obvious -- so some folks in power can expand that power.
Is not just about everything just about adult human being does just to make money anyway?

Also, who are those that 'you' are giving "power" to, and why would 'you' do this?
henry quirk wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:05 amThere was a time such things were considered treasonous and folks would swing at the end of ropes.
Really? When was that time?

Sounds like you want to judge, blame, and punish some, for some thing?

Who are they you are 'trying to'blame? And, what do you want to blame them for exactly?
Nick_A
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Re: Lockdown Protestors

Post by Nick_A »

George Washington. "The thing that sets the American Christian apart from all other people in the world is that he will die on his feet rather before he will live on his knees."
So far it does seem like its only a matter of time until official governmental knee pads come back into style.
Impenitent
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Re: Lockdown Protestors

Post by Impenitent »

Nick_A wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:22 am
George Washington. "The thing that sets the American Christian apart from all other people in the world is that he will die on his feet rather before he will live on his knees."
So far it does seem like its only a matter of time until official governmental knee pads come back into style.
the glorious revolution isn't far away

-Imp
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henry quirk
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for shame

Post by henry quirk »

Nick_A wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:22 am
George Washington. "The thing that sets the American Christian apart from all other people in the world is that he will die on his feet rather before he will live on his knees."
So far it does seem like its only a matter of time until official governmental knee pads come back into style.
It'll be interestin' to see, when them knee pads are handed out, when the mandate is issued, how many take 'em and use 'em as directed.

Right now: I'm thinkin' a good half of the country would willingly take a knee.
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