God and COVID-19

[Age]

After reading about some of the horror stories going on in New York and other places in the world from COVID-19 right now--people drowning in their own blood-filled lungs, medical personnel getting sick while trying to help others--it really makes me wonder what kind of "god" presides over such horror? Is there really a God at all? And if there were, would it not be a God of evil? I was once an atheist because I thought the world was too messed up to be run by a God. Later I was willing to switch to agnosticism because I thought maybe the world is not such an evil place after all. But now I see so much suffering and horror that It really makes me want to go back to being an atheist or else it makes me think God must be evil. I can't believe in a God who allows so much suffering.

Can I ask a question, Gary?

What do you suppose God "should have" done, that He has not? In other words, if you were God (and say you were a good God too) how would you be likely to arrange things so that they would be different from the present situation?

Or to put it another way, IF God has somehow failed to be compassionate in this situation, what would proper compassion look like?

If I were God I wouldn't create viruses, and if people are to die, they should die by less horrible means than suffocating in their own blood.

Where did you hear this "suffocating in their own blood" from?

Did you check for its validity?

And, how is that death any more horrible than dying in a car accident, dying of cancer, dying of a heart attack, dying of a bullet, dying of a bomb, or from dying of just about any other reason, besides while asleep?

And, just MAYBE a very compassionate thing for the rest of humanity is some non human created thing wiping out a few human beings BEFORE they over-populate their one and only home and destroy that to an unlivable existence, in which ALL human beings, and other animals, die a 'horrible' death?

Just some thing to think about.

Why do people only consider themselves in relation to 'compassion'?

If I were God I would make the universe more hospitable to humans

Humans only came about/evolved because of the way the Universe IS.

if there is to be overpopulation and therefore more space is needed.

Is the infinite Universe not big enough for 'you', human beings?

How much more do 'you', human beings, want?

Are you ever satisfied with what you have? Or, do you ALWAYS want MORE?

If I were God I would make the Sun last forever instead of supernova at some point. The list goes on and is a VERY long one.

Again, are 'you', human beings, not capable of dreaming up, inventing, and creating modes of travel to explore?

Is the infinite Universe, again, not big enough for 'you'?

Are 'you' not capable of travelling, or are 'you' to scared to travel, out from your current home, earth, and start exploring your own backyard, the Universe, before that one sun, of countless other suns, just does what it naturally does, that is; evolves and changes?

What happened to that curiosity and exploration your fore parents used to have?

Also, why do you put only human beings at the very front of any and all considerations?

God certainly does not do this and would certainly do such a thing.

[Age]

Likewise, if you want to ensure that nobody are left to die a horrible death, I'm sure there are other side-effects of that assurance as well.

So what would be a negative side effect of people dying peacefully?

Dying "peacefully" of what exactly?

If it is just of old age, then a side effect would be rapid over population.

Logic has almost not bearing on whether or not the Sun supernovas or whether the universe can support human life, etc. It is perfectly in line with logic that natural phenomena could be different.

Is there any other phenomena other than a natural one?

Logic says very little of how physical reality should be. If anything it should be simple logic to determine that suffering is a bad thing. It's not rocket science.

Who or what is suffering, and what from exactly?

[Age]

If I were God I wouldn't create viruses, and if people are to die, they should die by less horrible means than suffocating in their own blood. If I were God I would make the universe more hospitable to humans if there is to be overpopulation and therefore more space is needed. If I were God I would make the Sun last forever instead of supernova at some point. The list goes on and is a VERY long one.

Okay, fair enough. Let's start with the COVID-19 issue, in specific, and if you want to, we'll work to others.

This is a human-created virus. We know that much, whether we claim it appeared in a lab or in the wet markets of Wuhan.

Who was the human/s that created this virus, where was it created exactly, and what for? Also, how do you know that this virus was created by humans?

So what should a good God do about the people who create these things?

What "should" God do about people who make up stories and who pose them as being absolutely true, especially when they do not have the actual proof?

[Age]

So what would be a negative side effect of people dying peacefully? Logic has almost not bearing on whether or not the Sun supernovas or whether the universe can support human life, etc. It is perfectly in line with logic that natural phenomena could be different. Logic says very little of how physical reality should be.

It's not the peaceful dying-process that is the problem here. It has to do with the way to achieve this for everybody in every situation.
If you want the end-result to state: "Everybody dies peacefully with no pain" your starting position must be vastly different, meaning the in-betweens are vastly different from todays world. It may mean our life and achievements for the past 1 billion years as a living specie may have turned out very differently, perhaps we wouldn't even evolve as human beings in the first place.

That's what I mean by the 'butterfly effect', just that you extend this effect for billions of billions of years.

If you are talking evolution and humans evolving then you've pretty much departed from most religious cosmologies to start with.

Why do you say this?

From what I have observed in some religion they talk about evolution.

Do you have any examples of any religions that do not talk about evolution?

Sure, I imagine humans have evolved. We evolved to survive in an indifferent universe, not one of a caring God.

If that is what you imagine, then so be it.

But what can be clearly seen is an evolving Universe creating an environment, which provides for created things such as 'you', human beings.

[Age]

If I were God I wouldn't create viruses, and if people are to die, they should die by less horrible means than suffocating in their own blood. If I were God I would make the universe more hospitable to humans if there is to be overpopulation and therefore more space is needed. If I were God I would make the Sun last forever instead of supernova at some point. The list goes on and is a VERY long one.

Okay, fair enough. Let's start with the COVID-19 issue, in specific, and if you want to, we'll work to others.

This is a human-created virus. We know that much, whether we claim it appeared in a lab or in the wet markets of Wuhan.

So what should a good God do about the people who create these things?

I seriously doubt humans created this virus and besides viruses have been around for as long as people have, long before biological warfare and gene manipulation. You have to do some pretty fancy dancing to apologize for God in this case.

How could one logically blame God for what one individual does not want in the life that they have been given?

You have a choice; Either live with Life, and accept It, the way It is, keep whinging and complaining, change the thing that you do not like, or just stop living, in this one and only Life. The choice is yours.

[Age]

This is a human-created virus. We know that much, whether we claim it appeared in a lab or in the wet markets of Wuhan.

So what should a good God do about the people who create these things?

What is God doing about anything?

Talking, and explaining what is right and what is wrong in Life.

[Age]

If you are talking evolution and humans evolving then you've pretty much departed from most religious cosmologies to start with. Sure, I imagine humans have evolved. We evolved to survive in an indifferent universe, not one of a caring God.

I kind of believe in God (but I want to emphasize I do not know if God exists), but a vital part of my faith is this core-statement:

Thy shalt not confuse science with the faith of humans.


In other words, belief in God (the acts of God) must be explained logically. Every act of God, must be justified using logical reasoning.

This can be very easily done.

Every evidence of God (which is an entirely different thing altogether from belief) must be scientifically validated using The Scientific Method.

This can be very easily done.

As far as I know, the latter has never been proven.

But this can be very easily done.

First, there just needs to be some sort of consensus of what God can do, so then there is some thing to which we can scientifically validate using the scientific method.

It also follows, that anything that cannot be directly related to God, must not be directly linked to God's will.
From this follows that God hardly intervenes in our world, but I don't know anything about this.

How and why God hardly intervenes can be very easily explained.

I find that "not knowing" is better than believing in a false statement.

I find NEVER neither believing nor disbelieving absolutely any thing the best, in regards to learning, understanding, and reasoning anything.

[Age]

So what should a good God do about the people who create these things?

I seriously doubt humans created this virus and besides viruses have been around for as long as people have, long before biological warfare and gene manipulation. You have to do some pretty fancy dancing to apologize for God in this case.

Well, let's see. No apologies, but perhaps some discursive exploration of how we can think about these things.

So let's walk with COVID-19 for a bit, since it's the present case, then look at viruses more generally, if you want. And I promise not to ignore any of the cases you've suggested, either. Just bring them up when you feel satisfied we've come to all we can come to on COVID-19.

What should a good God have done to prevent the person who created this particular virus from doing what he did?

Do you have any actual evidence that some person created this virus?

[Age]

I didn't raise the charge. Gary did. I'm just asking what he meant.

I'm asking you about your statement "what we're expecting of God". Do you expect anything of God -- if so, what?

I know what you're asking. But this is Gary's party, and I'm going to let him lead.

The floor is his.

Well this is about one of the weakest excuses for, and attempts to, say or claim some thing, but when asked to clarify it, then pass it onto someone "else".

You even used the words "we are" in "what we are expecting" and still will not clarify.

[Age]

Why do you think COVID-19 was created by human beings? What evidence do you have of this?

Well, there are two stories of how COVID-19 started. So I don't know which one to believe, but it doesn't much matter.

Just because there are two "stories", that does not infer that there are only two reason how it started. There could be countless other reasons how it could have started that you are yet aware of.

One is that somebody in a lab created it. Okay. Whatever. The other is that somebody in Wuhan, China consumed an animal -- perhaps a bat -- and the virus mutated and spread from that decision. Okay, Whatever.

And, there are the other reasons of how it could have transferred to human beings. But, you appear to already have evidence that none of them is a possibility.

Either way, at the origin of the COVID-19 virus particularly, we have a human being, who made a choice.

So, by this logic, the common cold and flu was also created by human beings because; a human being made a choice.

Maybe he/she knew what he/she was doing, and maybe not. But he/she performed some action that issued in this particular virus being released on the world.

Besides creating this virus in a lab this virus was already released "on the world" before human being contracted it.

Or do you have a third theory, Gary?

Yes of course "they" do.

[Dontaskme]

First responders and medical personnel are now getting it from their patients and passing it on to their families. I doubt that's an example of "reaping what they sow."

Well duh, it is reaping what they sow.

If a medical doctor or nurse intermingles with an infected patient knowingly, then they are knowingly putting themselves and their immediate family at risk of DYING so then they are choosing to reap what they sow.

They don't have to go anywhere near those infectious people, but they choose to do so ... because they believe peoples lives are more important than cows.

It's just so awful isn't it?

All because of a simple commonal garden flu virus someone decided to name Covid -19 in the attempt to put the irrational fear of death into every living person...but sod the frigging cows, they can all just burn.

I think we need more cow hospitals.

.

[Averroes]

How exactly does one 'embrace' islam? What do i have to do exactly to 'embrace'?

If you have a wish to embrace Islam, then this is really a great blessing that God, the Almighty is giving you. You should be made aware that no one guides to Islam except Allah, the Almighty. Allah, the Almighty says in the Holy Quran:

• Indeed, [O Muhammad], you do not guide whom you like, but Allah guides whom He wills. And He is most knowing of the [rightly] guided. [Quran, interpretation of meaning 28:56]

To enter the fold of Islam you have to say with conviction in your heart and mind the following statement in Arabic:

Statement in English:

• “I bear witness that there is no deity (none truly to be worshipped) but, Allah, and I bear witness that Mohammad is the messenger of Allah.”

Statement in Arabic transliteration:

• “ASH-HADU ANLA ELAHA ILLA-ALLAH WA ASH-HADU ANNA MOHAMMADAN RASUL-ALLAH”.

The above profession of the Islamic faith is called the shahada. If Allah, the Almighty Who hears and sees all things, accepts your shahada, then you will enter the fold of Islam. Allah, the Almighty will then send guidance to you, and when you follow His guidance you will get benefits in this life and also in the life after death. When we make mistakes Allah's forgiveness is always open for us until we leave this world when death comes to us.

You can watch the following short YouTube video (35 seconds) which guides you to pronouncing the shahada correctly step by step. You can then just repeat after the reciter to make it easy for you : https://youtu.be/eCG7Oerxakk

If you are interested, below are a couple of videos where Islamic preacher Yusuf Estes from the USA is helping a man and a woman in the correct Arabic pronunciation of the shahada.
1. Bob takes the shahada: https://youtu.be/MHJ-mTwBiqI (24 seconds)
2. Lucy takes the shahada: https://youtu.be/09I2Wq2iyF0 (5 minutes)

Many people, especially women, get very emotional when taking the shahada, like sister Lucy above. Many new Muslims get a feeling of great relief and happiness when they embrace Islam. I came across a testimony of a sister from Ukraine who embraced Islam from Christianity and her testimony can be enlightening if you are interested: https://youtu.be/sd3GfGnHFsk (3 minutes)

And what purpose would that fulfill?

When a person becomes a Muslim, he/she will get guidance from Allah, the Almighty and peace when he/she follows His guidance. When someone enters the fold of Islam from being previously a non-Muslim, all his/her previous sins are not only forgiven but all those sins are converted into good deeds as well! So if you were to embrace Islam today, you get a clean slate like that of a new born baby, i.e. without any sin whatsoever. In such a state of purity then, for example, if you were to ask Allah for something good, then there are very high chances in your favor that He may grant you. You may also chose to ask Allah something good for me as well, and it will be greatly appreciated!

On judgement day, if you die as a Muslim, you will have a lot of favors from Allah, the Almighty. One of the great favors is that you will be eligible to benefit from the intersession of the blessed Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) on Judgement Day. There is a lot of advantages in Islam, there are just too many to enumerate all of them. I have embraced Islam about 15-16 years ago, and each day Allah, the Almighty sends something good in one form or another. There is also this direct connection with Allah, the Almighty that is one of the great gifts of embracing Islam, i.e. no intermediaries. When we need something in Islam, we ask Allah, the Almighty directly. Allah, the Most Merciful makes it easy, so you don’t have to worry if you are seriously thinking about embracing Islam now. Allah, the Almighty says in the Holy Quran:

• And strive for Allah with the striving due to Him. He has chosen you and has not placed upon you in the religion any difficulty. [It is] the religion of your father, Abraham. Allah named you “Muslims” before [in former scriptures] and in this [revelation] that the Messenger may be a witness over you and you may be witnesses over the people. So establish prayer and give zakah and hold fast to Allah. He is your protector; and excellent is the protector, and excellent is the helper. [Quran, interpretation of meaning, 22:78]

The Almighty One is NOT a "he".

The Arabic word “Allah” which is the name of God, the Almighty in Arabic is a gender neutral name, which means it is neither masculine nor feminine. So, when the pronoun “he” (Huwa in Arabic) is used to refer to Allah, the Almighty, it is not meant to convey gender information. In this specific usage, the pronoun “he” is often capitalized in English when referring to the Almighty.

The Almighty One ONLY 'accepts' repentance when you STOP doing wrong things.

Indeed, in Islam refraining from the sin is one of the conditions for an accepted repentance. There are three conditions for repentance to be accepted in Islam, they are:

1. One should give up the sin
2. One should regret having done it
3. One should resolve never to go back to it.

If all these conditions are fulfilled when repenting to Allah, then the repentance is accepted. If the person were to fall into the same sin again in the future, then the door of repentance to Allah is still open and it will remain open until the soul leaves the body at death.

By the way, what is a so called "good death" to you?

Dying as a Muslim in a state/condition that is pleasing to Allah, the Almighty. For example, like the death of prophet David(pbuh). When the Angel of Death came to Prophet David(pbuh), the latter welcomed him, and was ready to die on the spot. Or like the future death of Angel Gabriel (pbuh), who will die in prostration to Allah, the Almighty. These are the deaths that I aspire to, and I always ask Allah, the Most Merciful in my prayers for a good death and not a shameful return.
You may now be asking, what is a shameful return for me? If that be so, then examples of shameful deaths in my judgement are: the death of Pharaoh, the death of Nimrod, and the future death of Satan, the cursed, among others. And I ask Allah, the Almighty to preserve me, the Muslims and my loved ones from such deaths.


You have asked very good questions, I thank you for having put these to me. I am not an Islamic scholar but I did my best to try to answer your questions, and I hope you find the answers useful.

[Dontaskme]

Something that kills old people? Wow. Must be an evil god who would allow such a thing

It's not just old people. Doctors in some of the more inundated areas are now talking about who they should try to save and who they should let die because they don't have the beds or ventilators for them.

That's because humans are incompetent idiots, and you call this modern day progress. Who are you trying to convince?

[Age]

Well, there are two stories of how COVID-19 started. So I don't know which one to believe, but it doesn't much matter. One is that somebody in a lab created it. Okay. Whatever. The other is that somebody in Wuhan, China consumed an animal -- perhaps a bat -- and the virus mutated and spread from that decision. Okay, Whatever.

Either way, at the origin of the COVID-19 virus particularly, we have a human being, who made a choice. Maybe he/she knew what he/she was doing, and maybe not. But he/she performed some action that issued in this particular virus being released on the world.

Or do you have a third theory, Gary?

That's like saying a person made a choice to move to Houston to live and therefore the hurricane that hit was the "fault" of that human.

No, no, Gary...I'm not assigning blame. Just agency.

I don't know if you want to call it the "fault" of, say, the guy who ate the bat or the man in the lab. All I want to point out is that at the inception of this particular problem, a human being did something. Maybe he's entirely innocent of what he did; it matters not at all to the outcome, I think you'll agree.

That makes it different from a hurricane. Nobody "starts" a hurricane (though environmentalists seem to want to tell us they can). But somebody started this.

The important point is only to see that somebody did something -- an action.

This is like saying some one got cancer because they did some thing -- an action.

[Age]

It's hard for me to "make the best of it" when people are dying so horribly. I prefer to complain to the landlord...

Have you ever complained to your earthly landlord (the USA) about how he uses your rent money (taxes) to purposely and consciously rain down horrifying means of death and destruction upon children all over the world, just so that YOU, Gary Childress, can reap the benefits of having plenty of oil and other resources?

Do you also blame God for your own (look the other way) complicity in people “dying so horribly” via our drones and smart bombs, our backing of tyrannical regimes, and our crippling (medicine and food inhibiting) economic sanctions, just to name a few?

The point I am getting at is loosely depicted in the old (slightly adjusted) Biblical axiom:


“...why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's [God’s] eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?”

No. I hold people responsible for that. But God could make some people in our society less hateful and warlike, for the sake of the people who are getting the bombs rained on them.

Do you think human beings are not capable of making choices in what to do?