Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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AlexW
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

Post by AlexW »

RCSaunders wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:25 pmAll things are simply, "made of," or more correctly, simply are whatever all their attributes are, which are directly perceived or deduced from what is perceived.
Agree - but, to me, there is a huge difference between what is directly perceived and what is deducted/interpreted based on a percept.
Perception (direct experience) itself has no attributes (it is not a thing) - all attributes - which make the thing a thing - arise from deduction (which again is based on acquired knowledge/mental conditioning).
AlexW
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

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SteveKlinko wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:06 am What do I mean by the Thing In Itself, seems to be your main question. I say Thing In Itself in order to emphasize that Redness is a Property of a Conscious Experience. There is no Redness outside in the Physical World. Redness is a thing that exists only in the Conscious Mind.
I think you are mixing up direct experience (DE) and interpretation of the experience.
DE is not a thing - which also implies that there are no things "in" DE.
The things that you (seem to) find "inside" DE are mental constructs - they are not present as separate, individual entities in DE, they only exist as conceptual entities.

If with "Redness is a thing that exists only in the Conscious Mind", you are trying to say that "Redness" is simply a concept, a thought about DE, then yes, I agree.
SteveKlinko wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:06 am "It is not just an Illusion as a lot of people try to say but rather it is something that somehow Exists in and of itself. It is a thing in itself."
No! It is not a thing in itself as seeing, DE, is not a thing in itself - thus all apparent sub-parts/entities cannot be separate things either.
There can be no things within "something" that is not a thing - there can be no things "in" consciousness (or DE) if consciousness is not also a thing.

Is consciousness a thing? No!
Or do you propose it is?
Walker
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

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SteveKlinko wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:04 am Even the people that don't have Qualia are Conscious in the general sense but they do not have a Conscious Experience of something like Redness for example. They simply Detect that there is Red out in their field of view much like a Computer does. They somehow sense what their Neurons are doing differently than someone who's Mind generates a Redness Experience. The Qualia is just a Philosophers term for the Conscious Experience. So I could talk about the Redness Qualia.
Based on this, would you also say that a good stand-up comic can consciously generate a laughter experience but those without Qualia can only laugh in interpretation, sometimes uncontrollably … or did I misinterpret your meaning?
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

Post by SteveKlinko »

Impenitent wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:20 pm BLUE
GREEN
RED

-Imp
The old Inverted Spectrum idea. Maybe more of a jumbled spectrum. Who can know what people are really Experiencing for the various Colors. My point is that some people might not experience the Color Quale itself no matter how you mix it up.
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

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AlexW wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:22 am
SteveKlinko wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:06 am What do I mean by the Thing In Itself, seems to be your main question. I say Thing In Itself in order to emphasize that Redness is a Property of a Conscious Experience. There is no Redness outside in the Physical World. Redness is a thing that exists only in the Conscious Mind.
I think you are mixing up direct experience (DE) and interpretation of the experience.
DE is not a thing - which also implies that there are no things "in" DE.
The things that you (seem to) find "inside" DE are mental constructs - they are not present as separate, individual entities in DE, they only exist as conceptual entities.

If with "Redness is a thing that exists only in the Conscious Mind", you are trying to say that "Redness" is simply a concept, a thought about DE, then yes, I agree.
SteveKlinko wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:06 am "It is not just an Illusion as a lot of people try to say but rather it is something that somehow Exists in and of itself. It is a thing in itself."
No! It is not a thing in itself as seeing, DE, is not a thing in itself - thus all apparent sub-parts/entities cannot be separate things either.
There can be no things within "something" that is not a thing - there can be no things "in" consciousness (or DE) if consciousness is not also a thing.

Is consciousness a thing? No!
Or do you propose it is?
Think about Redness. I mean really look at something Red and think about the Redness of the thing. Just the Redness conceptually separated from the thing you are looking at. The Redness obviously does not exist in the External World but only as a Phenomenon in your Mind. Redness is a Property of a Conscious Phenomenon. You may not Experience Redness Qualia so you will not know what I am talking about. You might have the word Red associated with some signal you are receiving from your Neurons but you will not Experience anything beyond that.

I concentrate on the Sensory Qualia. You are Diverging into another topic when you ask about Consciousness in general. When we discover what Consciousness is then we can make statements about it.
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

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Walker wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:29 am
SteveKlinko wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:04 am Even the people that don't have Qualia are Conscious in the general sense but they do not have a Conscious Experience of something like Redness for example. They simply Detect that there is Red out in their field of view much like a Computer does. They somehow sense what their Neurons are doing differently than someone who's Mind generates a Redness Experience. The Qualia is just a Philosophers term for the Conscious Experience. So I could talk about the Redness Qualia.
Based on this, would you also say that a good stand-up comic can consciously generate a laughter experience but those without Qualia can only laugh in interpretation, sometimes uncontrollably … or did I misinterpret your meaning?
I am talking about Sensory Qualia like the Experience of Redness, the Experience of the Standard A Tone, or the Experience of the Salty Taste. Questions about what humor is, why we laugh, etc. is not in the scope of this discussion.
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Dontaskme
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

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SteveKlinko wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:17 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:08 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:00 pm I know that I am the Light (Conscious Light not Electromagnetic Light) that I Experience. But saying that, doesn't solve the Problem of why it Seems like I'm looking at the Light as an Observer.
That which is being looked at is what is looking.

That is all that can be known about that.

.
I know what you are trying to say but it rings hollow to me. Maybe I'll get it someday.
Seeing RED, is the experience of RED simply known as the awareness of RED.

The RED only exists because there is awareness of RED

Now, awareness does not depend on the colour RED to be what awareness IS ...for awareness is fundamentally the only direct experience there is HAPPENING ....so the colour RED is not an experience, it is just like a passing illusory idea wholly dependant on fundamental awareness to be known.

If awareness had never identified with this concept known as RED...would RED ever have existed? ..the answer is no it wouldn't...RED is just an illusory idea known by the only knowing there is which is awareness.

It's not known what is awareness because awareness is the knowing, the only knowing that cannot be known.

Why is awareness a problem to you?




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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

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SteveKlinko wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:46 am
Walker wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:29 am
SteveKlinko wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:04 am Even the people that don't have Qualia are Conscious in the general sense but they do not have a Conscious Experience of something like Redness for example. They simply Detect that there is Red out in their field of view much like a Computer does. They somehow sense what their Neurons are doing differently than someone who's Mind generates a Redness Experience. The Qualia is just a Philosophers term for the Conscious Experience. So I could talk about the Redness Qualia.
Based on this, would you also say that a good stand-up comic can consciously generate a laughter experience but those without Qualia can only laugh in interpretation, sometimes uncontrollably … or did I misinterpret your meaning?
I am talking about Sensory Qualia like the Experience of Redness, the Experience of the Standard A Tone, or the Experience of the Salty Taste. Questions about what humor is, why we laugh, etc. is not in the scope of this discussion.
Based on this, is it in the scope of your knowledge to extrapolate to the extent that you would also say, or not say, that someone who “has” Qualia can consciously generate a Redness experience, or an A Tone hearing experience, or a salty taste experience, but those who do not have Qualia can only react to an unsourced Redness, A Tone, or salty taste?
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

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Dontaskme wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:46 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:17 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:08 pm

That which is being looked at is what is looking.

That is all that can be known about that.

.
I know what you are trying to say but it rings hollow to me. Maybe I'll get it someday.
Seeing RED, is the experience of RED simply known as the awareness of RED.

The RED only exists because there is awareness of RED

Now, awareness does not depend on the colour RED to be what awareness IS ...for awareness is fundamentally the only direct experience there is HAPPENING ....so the colour RED is not an experience, it is just like a passing illusory idea wholly dependant on fundamental awareness to be known.

If awareness had never identified with this concept known as RED...would RED ever have existed? ..the answer is no it wouldn't...RED is just an illusory idea known by the only knowing there is which is awareness.

It's not known what is awareness because awareness is the knowing, the only knowing that cannot be known.

Why is awareness a problem to you?




.
I understand being aware of my Redness Experiences and I understand that I am my Redness Experiences. But I Experience Redness as existing somewhere apart from me where I am an independent Observer Experiencing the Redness. Even though I know I am that Redness I don't understand How I am that Redness.
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

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Walker wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:42 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:46 am
Walker wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:29 am
Based on this, would you also say that a good stand-up comic can consciously generate a laughter experience but those without Qualia can only laugh in interpretation, sometimes uncontrollably … or did I misinterpret your meaning?
I am talking about Sensory Qualia like the Experience of Redness, the Experience of the Standard A Tone, or the Experience of the Salty Taste. Questions about what humor is, why we laugh, etc. is not in the scope of this discussion.
Based on this, is it in the scope of your knowledge to extrapolate to the extent that you would also say, or not say, that someone who “has” Qualia can consciously generate a Redness experience, or an A Tone hearing experience, or a salty taste experience, but those who do not have Qualia can only react to an unsourced Redness, A Tone, or salty taste?
Let's take a Redness Experience. It is difficult for me to Imagine Redness with my eyes closed. My Experience of Imagining things like this is always vague and indistinct. My Dreams however can be very Vivid with respect to Colors. I have noticed that even though my Dreams can have Vivid Color the number of Colors in the Dream are limited to only a few in any Dream Scene. Quite often there will be only a single Color that seems to dominate for an object, with everything else a kind of gray scale.
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

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SteveKlinko wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:09 pm I understand being aware of my Redness Experiences and I understand that I am my Redness Experiences.
Ok, I follow that.
SteveKlinko wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:09 pmBut I Experience Redness as existing somewhere apart from me where I am an independent Observer Experiencing the Redness.
But I don't follow this.

How is Redness somewhere apart from you? what does my experience is apart from me even mean?

SteveKlinko wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:09 pmEven though I know I am that Redness I don't understand How I am that Redness.
So you understand you are the Redness and that is immediately obvious. But why add on the HOW ?

That's like asking HOW am I here experiencing this Redness or HOW is this one who is the experiencer of Redness possible? ...Ask yourself is it possible to know how I am possible? ...can you know that without having to go back to the very point in time and space at which you first began ...is that possible? surely you would have had to have been there at the very first point witnessing the beginning of you? ..do you see how absurd that would be?

Do you see how what you think is your life is just an illusion, and that there really are no answers to any of the how questions regarding your capacity to experience yourself?

I know this is not what you want to hear Steve, but I'm resting in not-knowing the hows ...but I understand you want to move forward into knowing the How question, so all I can do is wish you all the best in what you seek, and hope that you find it one day.



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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

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Dontaskme wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:49 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:09 pm I understand being aware of my Redness Experiences and I understand that I am my Redness Experiences.
Ok, I follow that.
SteveKlinko wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:09 pmBut I Experience Redness as existing somewhere apart from me where I am an independent Observer Experiencing the Redness.
But I don't follow this.

How is Redness somewhere apart from you? what does my experience is apart from me even mean?

SteveKlinko wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:09 pmEven though I know I am that Redness I don't understand How I am that Redness.
So you understand you are the Redness and that is immediately obvious. But why add on the HOW ?

That's like asking HOW am I here experiencing this Redness or HOW is this one who is the experiencer of Redness possible? ...Ask yourself is it possible to know how I am possible? ...can you know that without having to go back to the very point in time and space at which you first began ...is that possible? surely you would have had to have been there at the very first point witnessing the beginning of you? ..do you see how absurd that would be?

Do you see how what you think is your life is just an illusion, and that there really are no answers to any of the how questions regarding your capacity to experience yourself?

I know this is not what you want to hear Steve, but I'm resting in not-knowing the hows ...but I understand you want to move forward into knowing the How question, so all I can do is wish you all the best in what you seek, and hope that you find it one day.



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Thank You for the good Wishes.
This might be like the realization I had with the people that don't have Qualia.
You could have some Mind process that I don't have and so I will therefore never understand.
But let me try:

I think you Experience Redness and can Directly sense that the act of Experiencing it means you are the Redness.
I know I am the Redness but I get to that point from a different direction.

I trace the signal of Red Light hitting my Retina through the Brain and to the Cortex. I know that certain Neurons will fire in the Cortex. Then when these Neurons fire I will have a Redness Experience. But it is not the Experience itself that shows me I am the Redness, and in fact I am all the other Colors, and the Experience of Light in general. I realized that the Light inside my Mind is part of what I am because it is the Neurons that generate or lead to the Light Experience. The Neurons are part of what I am and I deduce that anything the Neurons can produce is part of what I am. The Conscious Light that I See is part of what I am. But knowing all this still leaves the unanswered question of How do the Neurons produce the Light Experience? But this is a question for me to answer. I understand your position on this.

I also wish you all the Best in what you seek.
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

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SteveKlinko wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:40 am You may not Experience Redness Qualia so you will not know what I am talking about.
I can see the color red, don't worry about that, but I do not experience a "me" experiencing this (or any other) qualia.

Direct experience - qualia as you like to phrase it - is not dependent on a "you" having an experience, yet you insist on explaining your understanding by introducing the idea of a separate self - thus breaking non-dual reality into conceptual pieces and proceeding from this false premise...
You say: "I know I am the Redness", but then insist on explaining this "fact" by applying concepts based on separation (my eyes, my neutrons, my concepts, my experience of light out there...) and then you wonder why it all doesn't make sense?
The mistake lies in believing that you "Experience Redness as existing somewhere apart from me where I am an independent Observer" - can you find this observer in this direct experience (as a qualia)? Or is this observer just an idea that you entertain?
And... if you believe you can experience it, then please describe it in some detail...

Everyone that is alive experiences directly / has (or rather IS) qualia - there is no living organism that can escape this fact - the question is only about what humans make out of this direct experience when the mind gets hold of it... this is where your qualia seem to get lost - but I assure you, they cannot be lost - reality can not be lost (it can only be overlook by the mind).
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

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SteveKlinko wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:23 pm But knowing all this still leaves the unanswered question of How do the Neurons produce the Light Experience? But this is a question for me to answer. I understand your position on this.
A question can only arise to the sense of a ''separate self'' where in reality, there isn't one, that 'separate self' is an artificially generated self that is nothing more than a conceptual appearance..aka a 'thought' within the mind.
There is no individual identity known as a ''me'' that is Awareness ...no more than the human character in a nightly dream exists apart from the dreamer. I AM Awareness is ONE .. everything .. and not - a - thing.
Science already confirm this.

SteveKlinko wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:23 pm I also wish you all the Best in what you seek.
There is actually no seeker except in the dream of separation a duality artificially created by the mind.

'what you seek is seeking you' ...it's a closed loop.

Everything that's happening is inside you.It's all in our brain. It's all the chemicals firing in our brain.

There is no 'me' inside the brain - there is only ever brain braining.

Honestly Steve, consciousness cannot get a peek up it's own skirt, that would require two consciousnessness which is impossible.

You cannot even look for consciousness using technology like MRI scanning for that too is an appearance in consciousness.

No ''me'' has ever seen consciousness. Conciousness is the ONLY seeing there is.

All images are images of the imageless. All colours originate from total opaque transparency...sound,colour, and image is an optical illusion of the senses. In other words one big giant hallucination of the brain.

.
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

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AlexW wrote: Wed Apr 01, 2020 4:27 am
SteveKlinko wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:40 am You may not Experience Redness Qualia so you will not know what I am talking about.
I can see the color red, don't worry about that, but I do not experience a "me" experiencing this (or any other) qualia.

Direct experience - qualia as you like to phrase it - is not dependent on a "you" having an experience, yet you insist on explaining your understanding by introducing the idea of a separate self - thus breaking non-dual reality into conceptual pieces and proceeding from this false premise...
You say: "I know I am the Redness", but then insist on explaining this "fact" by applying concepts based on separation (my eyes, my neutrons, my concepts, my experience of light out there...) and then you wonder why it all doesn't make sense?
The mistake lies in believing that you "Experience Redness as existing somewhere apart from me where I am an independent Observer" - can you find this observer in this direct experience (as a qualia)? Or is this observer just an idea that you entertain?
And... if you believe you can experience it, then please describe it in some detail...

Everyone that is alive experiences directly / has (or rather IS) qualia - there is no living organism that can escape this fact - the question is only about what humans make out of this direct experience when the mind gets hold of it... this is where your qualia seem to get lost - but I assure you, they cannot be lost - reality can not be lost (it can only be overlook by the mind).
No one can ever know what another Mind is Experiencing. We can only guess at what another Mind might be Experiencing after a very long time of interacting with that other Mind. Just because you say you can See the Color Red does not mean you are Experiencing the Quale. You might have always just Detected Red in some way without an Experience of Redness (Redness Qualia).

You start from the point of view that Non Duality is true. I start from the point of View that Duality is true. We have different perspectives. I have a very definite sense of being a separate Observer of some kind when I Experience Redness. I guess you do not have that sense of being a separate Observing Mind. Can't imagine what that would be like.

All I can say is that from my point of view I can understand how you might not be able to recognize the Qualia as being separate from your Self. This would happen if you had never actually Experienced the Qualia. Your sense of Non-Duality probably arises due to the absence of Qualia in your reality. Many people are like this. I'm not say that having Qualia is better than how you might Detect Red, I'm just saying that we are different.
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