God and COVID-19

[vegetariantaxidermy]

Something that kills old people? Wow. Must be an evil god who would allow such a thing

[henry quirk]

Who wants there to be bad choices? Why not only good choices? If you were living in Syria during the height of the bombs dropping, wouldn't you rather that there be no such choice as to rain bombs on you? Would you care all that much about Putin and Assad having the "free will" to "choose" to bomb you?

thing is: most folks makin' bad choices don't see those choices as bad.

and, no, I don't want bombs droppin' on me, so I do what I can to defend against that, or avoid that...what I don't do is pray for large-scale lobotomies of all the bad guys (just kill 'em...actually kinder to end a mad dog than fix it)

I care about bein' a free will...I value my autonomy...I value my capacity to choose...I accept that if I get to choose then so do others, and I accept that others will choose shit I find disagreeable or flat-out wrong

I wouldn't part with my autonomy to live in utopia...I wouldn't give up my capacity to choose to eliminate evil

on this scale...

security-------------------------------------------------------free*dom

...I'm the red asterisk between e & d

most folks are probably plunked down in the middle ground

you sound like you might be huggin' the security side of things

if that's your choice: you're welcome to it

OK. If you want bad choices among the things available to choose from I guess that's your business. I'd rather not have evil things to choose from. I can still have a "free will" even when there are only good choices. I can choose from the good choices.

You and me, we got thoroughly different conceptions of what it means to have, or be a, free will.

[henry quirk]

your government masters will decide what your "good" choices are.

rejoice in your citizenship

-Imp

A possible silver linin' from all this commie flu nonsense is more folks will see how truly incompetent the gov is.

Disillusioned, such folks may be less inclined to take orders and more inclined to give them.

[henry quirk]

mebbe cuz in removin' all challenge, removin' all choice, you're rendered impotent, useless, and turned into a freakin' robot, or worse, a pet

On the nose, as usual.

[Dubious]

I can't believe in a God who allows so much suffering.

Most of the suffering caused in the world we bring upon ourselves. There are exceedingly few episodes in history of what we call evil that we are not responsible for. Why always bring god into the picture when catastrophes happen? We're the fuckers who keep fucking up...perhaps to the point where there's hardly anymore damage to be done. God remains blameless existing or non-existing. God remains non-interventionist, it's primary protocol being as you sow so shall you reap. What could be more just or fair accounting for virtually every instance of good and evil whose sole source is the human psyche. Whether atheist or not, it always seemed extremely wimpy to blame some god for our own self-imposed suffering...most often as consequence of having made others suffer, human or animal. There's always a price to be paid in which even the innocent are not exempt.

[Gary Childress]

I can't believe in a God who allows so much suffering.

Most of the suffering caused in the world we bring upon ourselves. There are exceedingly few episodes in history of what we call evil that we are not responsible for. Why always bring god into the picture when catastrophes happen? We're the fuckers who keep fucking up...perhaps to the point where there's hardly anymore damage to be done. God remains blameless existing or non-existing. God remains non-interventionist, it's primary protocol being as you sow so shall you reap. What could be more just or fair accounting for virtually every instance of good and evil whose sole source is the human psyche. Whether atheist or not, it always seemed extremely wimpy to blame some god for our own self-imposed suffering...most often as consequence of having made others suffer, human or animal. There's always a price to be paid in which even the innocent are not exempt.

First responders and medical personnel are now getting it from their patients and passing it on to their families. I doubt that's an example of "reaping what they sow."

[Gary Childress]

Something that kills old people? Wow. Must be an evil god who would allow such a thing

It's not just old people. Doctors in some of the more inundated areas are now talking about who they should try to save and who they should let die because they don't have the beds or ventilators for them.

[Gary Childress]

OK. If you want bad choices among the things available to choose from I guess that's your business. I'd rather not have evil things to choose from. I can still have a "free will" even when there are only good choices. I can choose from the good choices.

Henry's actually caught the problem, Gary.

If you can only do good, then you are not allowed to choose good. There is, quite simply, not alternative. Your "goodness" then, would be no achievement on your part at all...you would have no hand in it. For it was inevitable. predetermined, absolutely certain before you began. You had no choice between doing the right thing, and doing something not right.

So blame is eliminated, but so is praise.

But there are three additional problems, at least...maybe more. And that first one isn't the biggest.

Secondly, what happens to identity. Part of who we are is composed of the ethical choices we learn to make. That's now eliminated.

Thirdly, although we may make you free from choice today, you weren't yesterday. So if God is good, what does He do about all the things you've already done? What would any good God do?

And there are more problems...

Free will is meaningless when there is no evil. It serves no purpose. I'd rather see less suffering in the world than be that devoted to "free will", as though it's something good in and of itself. I think you're confusing something with instrumental value as having intrinsic value.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

Something that kills old people? Wow. Must be an evil god who would allow such a thing

It's not just old people. Doctors in some of the more inundated areas are now talking about who they should try to save and who they should let die because they don't have the beds or ventilators for them.

It's overwhelmingly the elderly, and after that people with compromised immune systems.

[Gary Childress]

Something that kills old people? Wow. Must be an evil god who would allow such a thing

It's not just old people. Doctors in some of the more inundated areas are now talking about who they should try to save and who they should let die because they don't have the beds or ventilators for them.

It's overwhelmingly the elderly, and after that people with compromised immune systems.

So are you saying that it isn't a tragedy that the elderly and people with compromised immune systems are suffering right now?

[Immanuel Can]

Free will is meaningless when there is no evil. It serves no purpose.

I'm surprised you think so, Gary. What do you think the function of free will really is?

Do you suppose it might be in any way related to identity? Every young adult thinks it is.

Is it related to human dignity? Slaves sure think it is.

And again, would you suppose that free will was unimportant to relationship? Every bride at the altar sure thinks it matters.

And as for morality, free will is its sine qua non. "Ought implies can." If you can't choose, then you can't be morally accountable, or a moral agent.

In short, there's a lot of our human identity that presupposes free will. Even when the choice being made is for good, not for evil, the fact that the choice is being chosen, being freely made, is of central importance. Take that away, and something important is surely gone, no?

[Gary Childress]

Free will is meaningless when there is no evil. It serves no purpose.

I'm surprised you think so, Gary. What do you think the function of free will really is?

Do you suppose it might be in any way related to identity? Every young adult thinks it is.

I am more than simply my choices. Presumably I could have chosen something different and would still be "me".

Is it related to human dignity? Slaves sure think it is.

Slavery is evil. You're the one who wants the option open for people to become enslaved, not me.

And as for morality, free will is its sine qua non. "Ought implies can." If you can't choose, then you can't be morally accountable, or a moral agent.

True, no one would go to hell. Would you prefer some people to burn in hell?

[vegetariantaxidermy]

It's not just old people. Doctors in some of the more inundated areas are now talking about who they should try to save and who they should let die because they don't have the beds or ventilators for them.

It's overwhelmingly the elderly, and after that people with compromised immune systems.

So are you saying that it isn't a tragedy that the elderly and people with compromised immune systems are suffering right now?

It's a tragedy for them. Do you grieve every time an elderly person you don't know dies of flu? Or every time someone going through chemotherapy dies of pneumonia? Because there are thousands who do, every year. I'm more inclined to grieve for the young and healthy who are going to inherit a huge mess. What about all the people who will die as a result of a collapsed economy and health system? Or have to live in a fascist state? Can't get exercise or fresh air--vital for their immune system?

[Gary Childress]

It's overwhelmingly the elderly, and after that people with compromised immune systems.

So are you saying that it isn't a tragedy that the elderly and people with compromised immune systems are suffering right now?

It's a tragedy for them. Do you grieve every time an elderly person you don't know dies of flu? Because there are thousands who do, every year.

Do you grieve for every person killed by American bombs even though you don't know them? I assume you do. I'd rather see people happy and living than dead or choking on their own blood.

[henry quirk]

Free will is meaningless when there is no evil.

Without the possibility of evil, good has no meaning; without choice, there's only the peace of the assembly line, or the grave.


I'd rather see less suffering in the world than be that devoted to "free will"

So, you favor robot-world. Ever see the stepford wives (the original, not the remake)?

It's unlikely you'll get robot world by way of god, so mebbe you can get gov to mass produce thorazine and introduce it to the water supply. Soma, baby. Or mebbe you can lobby for behavior-moderatin' implants. Or, more simply, round up all the atavists and institute a final solution.

Understand, though, some of us don't wanna be sedated into goodness; won't be re-educated into bein' good boys and girls; won't be boardin' trains headed for the camps.


I think you're confusing something with instrumental value as having intrinsic value.

I think you're utterly devaluin' yourself.

'nuff said (all yours, Mannie...I just can't slam my head against this particular brick wall anymore).