God and COVID-19

[Gary Childress]

IC, between me and God, who is responsible for more deaths in this world? Which of us do you think has been an agent in the destruction of more human beings?

I'm not contesting that, Gary. I'm trying to take the measure of your accusation against God. I want to see how committed you feel to this idea that God should eliminate evils.

Whatever your view is, it is. If it holds water, it holds water.

I'm saying, let's you and I see if it does.

Why should I not want to eliminate evils? Don't you? Can we not agree that evil is bad and should be prevented as much as possible? Or why do you think I should want ANY evil in the world?

[henry quirk]

Parsimony, when in doubt: simplest explanation is a common virus jumped species, the means of the jump bein' wet market sales.

Well, whatever the truth is, those wet markets are super nasty, and they shouldn't exist at all. That much we can safely say.

If Fu Manflu coulda stay confined to China, I'd encourage all that garbage-eatin'.

Dead commies are always a plus.

[Immanuel Can]

Why should I not want to eliminate evils? Don't you? Can we not agree that evil is bad and should be prevented as much as possible? Or why do you think I should want ANY evil in the world?

So you believe that if God were good, he would have also eliminated ALL the world's evils, from the virus plagues right down to your personal evils, the evils in Gary Childress. Is that the bottom line?

And if so, do you feel any reservations, any slight nudges of intuition that maybe suggest to you that might not be totally good for you?

[Gary Childress]

Why should I not want to eliminate evils? Don't you? Can we not agree that evil is bad and should be prevented as much as possible? Or why do you think I should want ANY evil in the world?

So you believe that if God were good, he would have also eliminated ALL the world's evils, from the virus plagues right down to your personal evils, the evils in Gary Childress. Is that the bottom line?

And if so, do you feel any reservations, any slight nudges of intuition that maybe suggest to you that might not be totally good for you?

Why wouldn't it be good for me?

[Immanuel Can]

Why wouldn't it be good for me?

Maybe it would. Let's see. Let's imagine how the outcome of that scenario looks.

Let's imagine Gary Childress has been purged of all evil. He now only desires and does that which is good. He neither wants nor ever performs any bad thing. He lives in a world where only good is possible. Indeed no conception of evil even exists.

Has Gary lost anything?

[Gary Childress]

Why wouldn't it be good for me?

Maybe it would. Let's see. Let's imagine how the outcome of that scenario looks.

Let's imagine Gary Childress has been purged of all evil. He now only desires and does that which is good. He neither wants nor ever performs any bad thing. He lives in a world where only good is possible. Indeed no conception of evil even exists.

Has Gary lost anything?

Yes. I'd say I lost evil. Is that a bad thing?

[henry quirk]

Why should I not want to eliminate evils? Don't you? Can we not agree that evil is bad and should be prevented as much as possible? Or why do you think I should want ANY evil in the world?

So you believe that if God were good, he would have also eliminated ALL the world's evils, from the virus plagues right down to your personal evils, the evils in Gary Childress. Is that the bottom line?

And if so, do you feel any reservations, any slight nudges of intuition that maybe suggest to you that might not be totally good for you?

Why wouldn't it be good for me?

mebbe cuz in removin' all challenge, removin' all choice, you're rendered impotent, useless, and turned into a freakin' robot, or worse, a pet

[Gary Childress]

So you believe that if God were good, he would have also eliminated ALL the world's evils, from the virus plagues right down to your personal evils, the evils in Gary Childress. Is that the bottom line?

And if so, do you feel any reservations, any slight nudges of intuition that maybe suggest to you that might not be totally good for you?

Why wouldn't it be good for me?

mebbe cuz in removin' all challenge, removin' all choice, you're rendered impotent, useless, and turned into a freakin' robot, or worse, a pet

Is that really what you think of good people-people without evil in them? That's a very depressing view.

[henry quirk]

Why wouldn't it be good for me?

mebbe cuz in removin' all challenge, removin' all choice, you're rendered impotent, useless, and turned into a freakin' robot, or worse, a pet

Is that really what you think of good people-people without evil in them? That's a very depressing view.

people choosin' a noble path (the way it is) is way different than your suggestion of god eradicatin' evil, cuz in the eradicatin ' of evil he eliminates choice...if a man chooses to do good, he must be able to choose good's opposite or he has no choice from the start

[Gary Childress]

mebbe cuz in removin' all challenge, removin' all choice, you're rendered impotent, useless, and turned into a freakin' robot, or worse, a pet

Is that really what you think of good people-people without evil in them? That's a very depressing view.

people choosin' a noble path (the way it is) is way different than your suggestion of god eradicatin' evil, cuz in the eradicatin ' of evil he eliminates choice...if a man chooses to do good, he must be able to choose good's opposite or he has no choice from the start

Who wants there to be bad choices? Why not only good choices? If you were living in Syria during the height of the bombs dropping, wouldn't you rather that there be no such choice as to rain bombs on you? Would you care all that much about Putin and Assad having the "free will" to "choose" to bomb you?

[henry quirk]

Is that really what you think of good people-people without evil in them? That's a very depressing view.

people choosin' a noble path (the way it is) is way different than your suggestion of god eradicatin' evil, cuz in the eradicatin ' of evil he eliminates choice...if a man chooses to do good, he must be able to choose good's opposite or he has no choice from the start

Who wants there to be bad choices? Why not only good choices? If you were living in Syria during the height of the bombs dropping, wouldn't you rather that there be no such choice as to rain bombs on you? Would you care all that much about Putin and Assad having the "free will" to "choose" to bomb you?

thing is: most folks makin' bad choices don't see those choices as bad.

and, no, I don't want bombs droppin' on me, so I do what I can to defend against that, or avoid that...what I don't do is pray for large-scale lobotomies of all the bad guys (just kill 'em...actually kinder to end a mad dog than fix it)

I care about bein' a free will...I value my autonomy...I value my capacity to choose...I accept that if I get to choose then so do others, and I accept that others will choose shit I find disagreeable or flat-out wrong

I wouldn't part with my autonomy to live in utopia...I wouldn't give up my capacity to choose to eliminate evil

on this scale...

security-------------------------------------------------------free*dom

...I'm the red asterisk between e & d

most folks are probably plunked down in the middle ground

you sound like you might be huggin' the security side of things

if that's your choice: you're welcome to it

[Gary Childress]

people choosin' a noble path (the way it is) is way different than your suggestion of god eradicatin' evil, cuz in the eradicatin ' of evil he eliminates choice...if a man chooses to do good, he must be able to choose good's opposite or he has no choice from the start

Who wants there to be bad choices? Why not only good choices? If you were living in Syria during the height of the bombs dropping, wouldn't you rather that there be no such choice as to rain bombs on you? Would you care all that much about Putin and Assad having the "free will" to "choose" to bomb you?

thing is: most folks makin' bad choices don't see those choices as bad.

and, no, I don't want bombs droppin' on me, so I do what I can to defend against that, or avoid that...what I don't do is pray for large-scale lobotomies of all the bad guys (just kill 'em...actually kinder to end a mad dog than fix it)

I care about bein' a free will...I value my autonomy...I value my capacity to choose...I accept that if I get to choose then so do others, and I accept that others will choose shit I find disagreeable or flat-out wrong

I wouldn't part with my autonomy to live in utopia...I wouldn't give up my capacity to choose to eliminate evil

on this scale...

security-------------------------------------------------------free*dom

...I'm the red asterisk between e & d

most folks are probably plunked down in the middle ground

you sound like you might be huggin' the security side of things

if that's your choice: you're welcome to it

OK. If you want bad choices among the things available to choose from I guess that's your business. I'd rather not have evil things to choose from. I can still have a "free will" even when there are only good choices. I can choose from the good choices.

[Impenitent]

your government masters will decide what your "good" choices are.

rejoice in your citizenship

-Imp

[Immanuel Can]

OK. If you want bad choices among the things available to choose from I guess that's your business. I'd rather not have evil things to choose from. I can still have a "free will" even when there are only good choices. I can choose from the good choices.

Henry's actually caught the problem, Gary.

If you can only do good, then you are not allowed to choose good. There is, quite simply, not alternative. Your "goodness" then, would be no achievement on your part at all...you would have no hand in it. For it was inevitable. predetermined, absolutely certain before you began. You had no choice between doing the right thing, and doing something not right.

So blame is eliminated, but so is praise.

But there are three additional problems, at least...maybe more. And that first one isn't the biggest.

Secondly, what happens to identity. Part of who we are is composed of the ethical choices we learn to make. That's now eliminated.

Thirdly, although we may make you free from choice today, you weren't yesterday. So if God is good, what does He do about all the things you've already done? What would any good God do?

And there are more problems...

[Immanuel Can]

mebbe cuz in removin' all challenge, removin' all choice, you're rendered impotent, useless, and turned into a freakin' robot, or worse, a pet

On the nose, as usual.