Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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RCSaunders
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

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SteveKlinko wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:26 pm I have always assumed that all normally functioning Human Minds would have at least similar kinds of Conscious Experiences. I have thought this for decades. But after many years of discussions about this with people it has finally become clear to me that some people actually must not have Conscious Experiences or Qualia. I limit this observation to things like the Experience of Redness, the Standard A Tone, the Salty Taste and so on. The Experience of Colors and especially the Experience of Redness has been a major target for my discussions with people on the various Philosophy of Mind and Consciousness Forums. There are people that flat out deny the Existence of the Experience of Redness. I think they give it their best shot at understanding it but they always fall back to just dismissing the Experience of something like Redness as pure Fantasy, Superstition, Magic, and Illusion. I have become convinced that their denials of Conscious Experience, their very words, show that they truly and simply do not Experience Redness as a kind of Experience. They are not Color blind so they can Detect Red in their Visual Field in some way but it seems to be more at the level of the Neural Activity. They can somehow sense that their Neurons are Firing for Red and indicate that there is Red in their Field of View but there seems to be no Experience of Redness in their Field of View. They deny any such extra Consciousness Phenomenon is happening. I used to think they were just messing with me, and I was hoping that after all these years that they would get tired of continuing their Fraud. But they are not messing with me, they truly do not have Conscious Experiences or Qualia. In fact they say that Qualia was invented by Idiot Philosophers. They are usually nasty and arrogant like that and I wonder if that is a symptom of their lack of Qualia. Interesting that their lack of Qualia would make them living examples of the P-Zombies from Philosophy. One thing I can say is that if they really never have had an Experience of something like Redness then I can completely understand how they would think it was something Magical, and Illusory. These people simply deny the Existence of Qualia and are completely stymied by talk of Qualia.

Another discussion thread I have participated in where the people denied the Existence of Qualia was one where the people were convinced that we cannot see a Color until we have a Word for the Color. This seems like a very strange thing to believe. I tried in vain to convince them that the Word for the Color does not make the Color real but that the direct Experience of the Color is real. They could not understand what I was talking about. This can only make sense if you consider that they might never have Experienced a Color Quale. They instead receive some kind of Signals from their Neurons that gives them some type Indication of the different Colors but without an actual Conscious Experience of the Colors. I can see how the Words might be of prime importance to them.

But yet another example of People that probably have no Conscious Experiences or Qualia are the people that don't understand the difference between a Computer detecting Red and a Human detecting Red. They probably also just Detect Red in some way but have never had an actual Experience of Redness.

The evidence for this lack of Conscious Experience in some people is continuing to grow. It Explains the endless arguments about Conscious Experience and Qualia. These people simply do not have Qualia. The Lights are out in their Minds.
You are quite right. I no longer debate with those who deny their own conscious experience, assuming they are not liars, if the say they do not see any colors, hear any sounds, feel anything, smell anything or taste anything, I take their word for it.

I have also come to the conclusion that those who deny there is any real knowledge are telling the truth--for themselves, and that they truly do not know anything. The same for those who claim nothing can be proved or known to be true, or that conscious choice is not possible and that human behavior is determined by physical laws, or evolved conditions of the brain, or their DNA, or chemicals in the brain, or their subconscious, or their genes, or their feelings, desires, sentiments, or their culture or education, or anything except their own conscious choice, I believe them.

There are apparently those walking among us who are human to all appearances but who have not fully evolved, are not fully rational, intellectual, volitional beings, but chimeras, part animal and part human, according to their own testimony.
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

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SteveKlinko wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:30 pm So you believe your Conscious Self is only an Idea and not something more than that?
Maybe so but my Conscious Self is a real Existing thing that Exists in some sort of Conscious World.
While it is true that the conscious self is a real existing experience. Known via direct experience. It is not known how or why this knowing is known in a way it can be explained.

Except to say it is known, I am known. That's it, the buck stops there. There is nothing more to say about it, let alone explain it.
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

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Dontaskme wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:14 pm Try asking an animal to explain the colour red.
Of course an animal cannot explain the color red, just as you can't. One has to actually have that experience to understand and explain it.

It won't matter to you, but for those who actually see the color red and are interested in it's nature, it can easily be explained. It's nothing that should bother you, however, since, according to your own testimony you do not have that experience, of actually seeing red, so it won't bother you.
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

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Impenitent wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:33 pm if each mind is unique, that mind's perception is as well...

language is a cheat, for meaning is as unique as the user...

-Imp
So, what you just wrote should mean nothing to anyone else. You're probably right!
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

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RCSaunders wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:56 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:14 pm Try asking an animal to explain the colour red.
Of course an animal cannot explain the color red, just as you can't. One has to actually have that experience to understand and explain it.

It won't matter to you, but for those who actually see the color red and are interested in it's nature, it can easily be explained. It's nothing that should bother you, however, since, according to your own testimony you do not have that experience, of actually seeing red, so it won't bother you.
Seeing the colour red is an experience I am apparently having, but I have no idea who or what is having that experience or why.
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

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Dontaskme wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:00 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:56 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:14 pm Try asking an animal to explain the colour red.
Of course an animal cannot explain the color red, just as you can't. One has to actually have that experience to understand and explain it.

It won't matter to you, but for those who actually see the color red and are interested in it's nature, it can easily be explained. It's nothing that should bother you, however, since, according to your own testimony you do not have that experience, of actually seeing red, so it won't bother you.
Seeing the colour red is an experience I am apparently having, but I have no idea who or what is having that experience or why.
Exactly. Me either.
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

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SteveKlinko wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:04 am Even the people that don't have Qualia are Conscious in the general sense but they do not have a Conscious Experience of something like Redness for example.
Maybe. It is not possible to know what anyone else's conscious experience is except by their own testimony and the assumption they are not lying. The old behaviorists believed there really was no consciousness and that there was only a complex behavioral reaction to whatever the neurological system was doing, like some kind of super-super-computer. It certainly appears that they are conscious, because their behavior seems like our own behavior which we know is determined consciously, but if they deny they are conscious, perhaps they really are nothing more than some kind of very complex program responding in a way that seems like conscious behavior. I doubt it and think they are self-deluded, but it seems silly to argue with them about it.
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

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RCSaunders wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:49 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:26 pm I have always assumed that all normally functioning Human Minds would have at least similar kinds of Conscious Experiences. I have thought this for decades. But after many years of discussions about this with people it has finally become clear to me that some people actually must not have Conscious Experiences or Qualia. I limit this observation to things like the Experience of Redness, the Standard A Tone, the Salty Taste and so on. The Experience of Colors and especially the Experience of Redness has been a major target for my discussions with people on the various Philosophy of Mind and Consciousness Forums. There are people that flat out deny the Existence of the Experience of Redness. I think they give it their best shot at understanding it but they always fall back to just dismissing the Experience of something like Redness as pure Fantasy, Superstition, Magic, and Illusion. I have become convinced that their denials of Conscious Experience, their very words, show that they truly and simply do not Experience Redness as a kind of Experience. They are not Color blind so they can Detect Red in their Visual Field in some way but it seems to be more at the level of the Neural Activity. They can somehow sense that their Neurons are Firing for Red and indicate that there is Red in their Field of View but there seems to be no Experience of Redness in their Field of View. They deny any such extra Consciousness Phenomenon is happening. I used to think they were just messing with me, and I was hoping that after all these years that they would get tired of continuing their Fraud. But they are not messing with me, they truly do not have Conscious Experiences or Qualia. In fact they say that Qualia was invented by Idiot Philosophers. They are usually nasty and arrogant like that and I wonder if that is a symptom of their lack of Qualia. Interesting that their lack of Qualia would make them living examples of the P-Zombies from Philosophy. One thing I can say is that if they really never have had an Experience of something like Redness then I can completely understand how they would think it was something Magical, and Illusory. These people simply deny the Existence of Qualia and are completely stymied by talk of Qualia.

Another discussion thread I have participated in where the people denied the Existence of Qualia was one where the people were convinced that we cannot see a Color until we have a Word for the Color. This seems like a very strange thing to believe. I tried in vain to convince them that the Word for the Color does not make the Color real but that the direct Experience of the Color is real. They could not understand what I was talking about. This can only make sense if you consider that they might never have Experienced a Color Quale. They instead receive some kind of Signals from their Neurons that gives them some type Indication of the different Colors but without an actual Conscious Experience of the Colors. I can see how the Words might be of prime importance to them.

But yet another example of People that probably have no Conscious Experiences or Qualia are the people that don't understand the difference between a Computer detecting Red and a Human detecting Red. They probably also just Detect Red in some way but have never had an actual Experience of Redness.

The evidence for this lack of Conscious Experience in some people is continuing to grow. It Explains the endless arguments about Conscious Experience and Qualia. These people simply do not have Qualia. The Lights are out in their Minds.
You are quite right. I no longer debate with those who deny their own conscious experience, assuming they are not liars, if the say they do not see any colors, hear any sounds, feel anything, smell anything or taste anything, I take their word for it.

I have also come to the conclusion that those who deny there is any real knowledge are telling the truth--for themselves, and that they truly do not know anything. The same for those who claim nothing can be proved or known to be true, or that conscious choice is not possible and that human behavior is determined by physical laws, or evolved conditions of the brain, or their DNA, or chemicals in the brain, or their subconscious, or their genes, or their feelings, desires, sentiments, or their culture or education, or anything except their own conscious choice, I believe them.

There are apparently those walking among us who are human to all appearances but who have not fully evolved, are not fully rational, intellectual, volitional beings, but chimeras, part animal and part human, according to their own testimony.
Exactly. It is the constancy of their denials, no matter what you say to them, that leads me to my conclusions. Glad to hear another voice in the wilderness speak out. I have to wonder if most people are Numb to their Experiences.
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

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AlexW wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:29 am When investigating the direct experience of seeing you will find that all things are simply "made of" color ..."
That's right! An entity is whatever it's attributes are. Of course color is only the attributes of a thing that can be directly seen, along with the indirectly perceived attributes of shape, size, position, etc. seen by means of how those colors are configured in our visual field. Along with the attributes of a thing that can be seen there are all its other attributes we hear (if it makes a sound) feel, taste and smell, if it has those attributes. It is from those attributes that we directly see, hear, feel, smell, and taste that all other attributes of an entity are discovered by the means of the sciences. All things are simply, "made of," or more correctly, simply are whatever all their attributes are, which are directly perceived or deduced from what is perceived.
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

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RCSaunders wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:10 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:04 am Even the people that don't have Qualia are Conscious in the general sense but they do not have a Conscious Experience of something like Redness for example.
Maybe. It is not possible to know what anyone else's conscious experience is except by their own testimony and the assumption they are not lying. The old behaviorists believed there really was no consciousness and that there was only a complex behavioral reaction to whatever the neurological system was doing, like some kind of super-super-computer. It certainly appears that they are conscious, because their behavior seems like our own behavior which we know is determined consciously, but if they deny they are conscious, perhaps they really are nothing more than some kind of very complex program responding in a way that seems like conscious behavior. I doubt it and think they are self-deluded, but it seems silly to argue with them about it.
I have been trying to make them understand for a couple of years and I only realized recently that It is pointless to argue. There is some comfort in the realization that they simply don't have Qualia. That actually explains everything about their behavior over the years. But like you I am still hoping that they are really a Fraud or just Self Deluded, rather than there being other types of Mind mechanisms that can be so different.
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

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SteveKlinko wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:09 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:00 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:56 pm
Of course an animal cannot explain the color red, just as you can't. One has to actually have that experience to understand and explain it.

It won't matter to you, but for those who actually see the color red and are interested in it's nature, it can easily be explained. It's nothing that should bother you, however, since, according to your own testimony you do not have that experience, of actually seeing red, so it won't bother you.
Seeing the colour red is an experience I am apparently having, but I have no idea who or what is having that experience or why.
Exactly. Me either.
The question of who or what or why do I see the colour red doesn't arise in an animal, and yet the question arises in a human being. And yet a human being and an animal share the exact same existence. So where does the experience of I exist so I must be able to explain this..where does that come from except as and through thought,language, and knowledge which is just another appearance, aka an experience...that cannot be explained.

In essence all knowledge can do is point to the illusory nature of reality.

.
Last edited by Dontaskme on Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

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Dontaskme wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:14 pm The redness only exists as a concept known. It's a mental construction. No one has ever SEEN the colour RED.
Now you tell me. Where were you when I was stopped for driving through a red light?

I suspect your argument would not have flown in court.
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

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RCSaunders wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:29 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:14 pm The redness only exists as a concept known. It's a mental construction. No one has ever SEEN the colour RED.
Now you tell me. Where were you when I was stopped for driving through a red light?

I suspect your argument would not have flown in court.
Who and what is seeing the colour RED?

While I cannot deny the concept RED is known, I have no idea who or what is knowing / seeing RED.
In other words, I cannot see or know the seer and the knower of RED
Last edited by Dontaskme on Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

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Dontaskme wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:00 pm Seeing the colour red is an experience I am apparently having, but I have no idea who or what is having that experience or why.
What do you mean by, "I," in the phrases, "I am apparently having," and, "I have no idea?" I suspect the
"who or what," is the, "I," you used in those phrases.
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

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RCSaunders wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:35 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:00 pm Seeing the colour red is an experience I am apparently having, but I have no idea who or what is having that experience or why.
What do you mean by, "I," in the phrases, "I am apparently having," and, "I have no idea?" I suspect the
"who or what," is the, "I," you used in those phrases.

Yes, the I is the experience itself, the experience that is known...this I experience is known.

But the known is not known by the known...ok?
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