Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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SteveKlinko
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Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

Post by SteveKlinko »

I have always assumed that all normally functioning Human Minds would have at least similar kinds of Conscious Experiences. I have thought this for decades. But after many years of discussions about this with people it has finally become clear to me that some people actually must not have Conscious Experiences or Qualia. I limit this observation to things like the Experience of Redness, the Standard A Tone, the Salty Taste and so on. The Experience of Colors and especially the Experience of Redness has been a major target for my discussions with people on the various Philosophy of Mind and Consciousness Forums. There are people that flat out deny the Existence of the Experience of Redness. I think they give it their best shot at understanding it but they always fall back to just dismissing the Experience of something like Redness as pure Fantasy, Superstition, Magic, and Illusion. I have become convinced that their denials of Conscious Experience, their very words, show that they truly and simply do not Experience Redness as a kind of Experience. They are not Color blind so they can Detect Red in their Visual Field in some way but it seems to be more at the level of the Neural Activity. They can somehow sense that their Neurons are Firing for Red and indicate that there is Red in their Field of View but there seems to be no Experience of Redness in their Field of View. They deny any such extra Consciousness Phenomenon is happening. I used to think they were just messing with me, and I was hoping that after all these years that they would get tired of continuing their Fraud. But they are not messing with me, they truly do not have Conscious Experiences or Qualia. In fact they say that Qualia was invented by Idiot Philosophers. They are usually nasty and arrogant like that and I wonder if that is a symptom of their lack of Qualia. Interesting that their lack of Qualia would make them living examples of the P-Zombies from Philosophy. One thing I can say is that if they really never have had an Experience of something like Redness then I can completely understand how they would think it was something Magical, and Illusory. These people simply deny the Existence of Qualia and are completely stymied by talk of Qualia.

Another discussion thread I have participated in where the people denied the Existence of Qualia was one where the people were convinced that we cannot see a Color until we have a Word for the Color. This seems like a very strange thing to believe. I tried in vain to convince them that the Word for the Color does not make the Color real but that the direct Experience of the Color is real. They could not understand what I was talking about. This can only make sense if you consider that they might never have Experienced a Color Quale. They instead receive some kind of Signals from their Neurons that gives them some type Indication of the different Colors but without an actual Conscious Experience of the Colors. I can see how the Words might be of prime importance to them.

But yet another example of People that probably have no Conscious Experiences or Qualia are the people that don't understand the difference between a Computer detecting Red and a Human detecting Red. They probably also just Detect Red in some way but have never had an actual Experience of Redness.

The evidence for this lack of Conscious Experience in some people is continuing to grow. It Explains the endless arguments about Conscious Experience and Qualia. These people simply do not have Qualia. The Lights are out in their Minds.

Edited 04/14/20:
It occurred to me that the people who claim they have no Qualia or Conscious Experiences like Redness, Standard A Toneness, or Salty Tasteness are actually not even Sentient Beings. Machines can Detect Red Electromagnetic Waves , or Detect a 440Hz Tone, or Detect the presence of Salt, but a Machine is not a Sentient Being. Likewise, the Physicalists on the Forum are technically not Sentient Beings if their claim about not having Qualia is true.
Last edited by SteveKlinko on Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Impenitent
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

Post by Impenitent »

if each mind is unique, that mind's perception is as well...

language is a cheat, for meaning is as unique as the user...

-Imp
Walker
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

Post by Walker »

I more than once drove across the state of Kansas starting with a full tank of gas. The evidence of consciousness is that I safely controlled tons of heavy metal at high speed. However, I remember little of the actual experience other than it did happen, and some wind turbines on the horizon at dusk.

The point being, much of conscious life requires scant attention. Conscious Experience is more of a basal function than the perception of choice. Once you learn to drive there's not much choice in the activity, there are however choiceless calculations made in the background of intelligence, given the intent of staying alive.

What is this Qualia of which you speak, and do these comments make me a zombie?

:D
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bahman
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

Post by bahman »

Experience is needed for any response. People respond. Therefore, they are conscious.
SteveKlinko
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

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Walker wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:56 pm I more than once drove across the state of Kansas starting with a full tank of gas. The evidence of consciousness is that I safely controlled tons of heavy metal at high speed. However, I remember little of the actual experience other than it did happen, and some wind turbines on the horizon at dusk.

The point being, much of conscious life requires scant attention. Conscious Experience is more of a basal function than the perception of choice. Once you learn to drive there's not much choice in the activity, there are however choiceless calculations made in the background of intelligence, given the intent of staying alive.

What is this Qualia of which you speak, and do these comments make me a zombie?

:D
Even the people that don't have Qualia are Conscious in the general sense but they do not have a Conscious Experience of something like Redness for example. They simply Detect that there is Red out in their field of view much like a Computer does. They somehow sense what their Neurons are doing differently than someone who's Mind generates a Redness Experience. The Qualia is just a Philosophers term for the Conscious Experience. So I could talk about the Redness Qualia.
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

Post by SteveKlinko »

bahman wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 10:59 pm Experience is needed for any response. People respond. Therefore, they are conscious.
They are Conscious but do they Experience something like Redness as a thing in itself or do they just Detect Red without the Experience?
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

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Impenitent wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:33 pm if each mind is unique, that mind's perception is as well...

language is a cheat, for meaning is as unique as the user...

-Imp
I agree.
AlexW
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

Post by AlexW »

SteveKlinko wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:06 am They are Conscious but do they Experience something like Redness as a thing in itself or do they just Detect Red without the Experience?
How should you "detect red without the Experience"? I don't know how this would be possible...
Sure you can think about Red, without having the direct experience of Red, but I guess this is not what you are referring to, are you?

Also, how do you "Experience something like Redness as a thing in itself"?
To me, experience is continuous, there is no separate "thing in itself" outside of thought labelling it as such.

When you look at your surroundings, you seem to be seeing things, but what you actually see is only a mixture of colours - all "things" are merely patterns of color that we have learned to extract from the unified/unbroken field of colours, that we name, award certain attributes and that we weave into a tight net of existing (previously acquired) concepts.
When investigating the direct experience of seeing you will find that all things are simply "made of" color - you will also find that seeing is nothing but color. We could state that: Seeing = Color.
Now replace the label "color" with the label "seeing" and ask yourself: Can you "Experience something like Seeing as a thing in itself"?
The answer is no - and the same answer is true for: can you "Experience something like Redness as a thing in itself"?
No, you can't - simply because all experience is not of things - things are for the mind (for thought) only - not for direct experience.

And... if you are trying to point out that most people only live in their head, that they do not consciously experience reality, but are stuck in their thought made universe of separation, then yes, I agree. This is the case for most people, and the number of "mind-zombies" seems to be increasing :-)
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

Post by SteveKlinko »

AlexW wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:29 am
SteveKlinko wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:06 am They are Conscious but do they Experience something like Redness as a thing in itself or do they just Detect Red without the Experience?
How should you "detect red without the Experience"? I don't know how this would be possible...
Sure you can think about Red, without having the direct experience of Red, but I guess this is not what you are referring to, are you?

Also, how do you "Experience something like Redness as a thing in itself"?
To me, experience is continuous, there is no separate "thing in itself" outside of thought labelling it as such.

When you look at your surroundings, you seem to be seeing things, but what you actually see is only a mixture of colours - all "things" are merely patterns of color that we have learned to extract from the unified/unbroken field of colours, that we name, award certain attributes and that we weave into a tight net of existing (previously acquired) concepts.
When investigating the direct experience of seeing you will find that all things are simply "made of" color - you will also find that seeing is nothing but color. We could state that: Seeing = Color.
Now replace the label "color" with the label "seeing" and ask yourself: Can you "Experience something like Seeing as a thing in itself"?
The answer is no - and the same answer is true for: can you "Experience something like Redness as a thing in itself"?
No, you can't - simply because all experience is not of things - things are for the mind (for thought) only - not for direct experience.

And... if you are trying to point out that most people only live in their head, that they do not consciously experience reality, but are stuck in their thought made universe of separation, then yes, I agree. This is the case for most people, and the number of "mind-zombies" seems to be increasing :-)
What do I mean by the Thing In Itself, seems to be your main question. I say Thing In Itself in order to emphasize that Redness is a Property of a Conscious Experience. There is no Redness outside in the Physical World. Redness is a thing that exists only in the Conscious Mind. It is not just an Illusion as a lot of people try to say but rather it is something that somehow Exists in and of itself. It is a thing in itself. You can look at something Red and Experience the Thing In Itself of Redness. All the Colors and Light Experiences in general are this way.
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Dontaskme
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

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SteveKlinko wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 11:27 am I say Thing In Itself in order to emphasize that Redness is a Property of a Conscious Experience. There is no Redness outside in the Physical World. Redness is a thing that exists only in the Conscious Mind. It is not just an Illusion as a lot of people try to say but rather it is something that somehow Exists in and of itself. It is a thing in itself. You can look at something Red and Experience the Thing In Itself of Redness. All the Colors and Light Experiences in general are this way.
The thing in and of itself A.K.A ( CONSCIOUS EXPERIENCE) is not a property of anything other than itself - the Seer and Seen are inseparably ''One Thing''. There is no colour separate from the seeing of the colour.

Therefore, there is no such thing in and of itself that is the colour RED, as the colour RED can only be an idea known by this ''one colour/less thing'' as the colour/less is the colour as it is known conceptually by no conceptual thing.

.
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

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Dontaskme wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 12:57 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 11:27 am I say Thing In Itself in order to emphasize that Redness is a Property of a Conscious Experience. There is no Redness outside in the Physical World. Redness is a thing that exists only in the Conscious Mind. It is not just an Illusion as a lot of people try to say but rather it is something that somehow Exists in and of itself. It is a thing in itself. You can look at something Red and Experience the Thing In Itself of Redness. All the Colors and Light Experiences in general are this way.
The thing in and of itself A.K.A ( CONSCIOUS EXPERIENCE) is not a property of anything other than itself - the Seer and Seen are inseparably ''One Thing''. There is no colour separate from the seeing of the colour.

Therefore, there is no such thing in and of itself that is the colour RED, as the colour RED can only be an idea known by this ''one colour/less thing'' as the colour/less is the colour as it is known conceptually by no conceptual thing.

.
Nice poetical words. But that doesn't make the Redness go away. It is still there and must be Explained.
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Dontaskme
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

Post by Dontaskme »

SteveKlinko wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:11 pm Nice poetical words. But that doesn't make the Redness go away. It is still there and must be Explained.
The redness only exists as a concept known. It's a mental construction. No one has ever SEEN the colour RED.

JUST AS NO ONE HAS EVER SEEN THE MIND


How can you explain ANY CONCEPT? without explaining who or what is experiencing and knowing the concept?

Try asking an animal to explain the colour red.

How do you explain the knower/experiencer of every concept?

Honestly Steve, you can't without making the knower/experiencer something that is known /experienced which is just being back at square one again.

.
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

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Dontaskme wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:14 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:11 pm Nice poetical words. But that doesn't make the Redness go away. It is still there and must be Explained.
The redness only exists as a concept known. It's a mental construction. No one has ever SEEN the colour RED.

JUST AS NO ONE HAS EVER SEEN THE MIND


How can you explain ANY CONCEPT? without explaining who or what is experiencing and knowing the concept?

Try asking an animal to explain the colour red.

How do you explain the knower/experiencer of every concept?

Honestly Steve, you can't without making the knower/experiencer something that is known /experienced which is just being back at square one again.

.
Yes, I know that the Observer is the 800lb Gorilla in the room. But you cant start a discussion about Observers or any kind of Conscious Self concept with these Numb Zombies. I have thought that talking about the Experience would lead to the question of What is Experiencing these Experiences. But there is no Light in their Minds. And I really mean Light. Not Electromagnetic Light but Conscious Light.
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Dontaskme
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

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SteveKlinko wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:51 pm Yes, I know that the Observer is the 800lb Gorilla in the room. But you cant start a discussion about Observers or any kind of Conscious Self concept with these Numb Zombies. I have thought that talking about the Experience would lead to the question of What is Experiencing these Experiences. But there is no Light in their Minds. And I really mean Light. Not Electromagnetic Light but Conscious Light.
But that's just it, there is no 800lb Gorilla in the living room.

Except as an idea that no one has ever seen. For what is an idea? I have no idea.
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

Post by SteveKlinko »

Dontaskme wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:03 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:51 pm Yes, I know that the Observer is the 800lb Gorilla in the room. But you cant start a discussion about Observers or any kind of Conscious Self concept with these Numb Zombies. I have thought that talking about the Experience would lead to the question of What is Experiencing these Experiences. But there is no Light in their Minds. And I really mean Light. Not Electromagnetic Light but Conscious Light.
But that's just it, there is no 800lb Gorilla in the living room.

Except as an idea that no one has ever seen. For what is an idea? I have no idea.
So you believe your Conscious Self is only an Idea and not something more than that?
Maybe so but my Conscious Self is a real Existing thing that Exists in some sort of Conscious World.
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