Coronavirus Craziness

For philosophical reflections on the COVID-19 pandemic. How can philosophy help us to understand it, to combat it and to survive it?

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Immanuel Can
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Re: perspective

Post by Immanuel Can »

henry quirk wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 3:46 pm https://newcriterion.com/blogs/dispatch ... ed-to-what

Compared to what?
by Heather Mac Donald

Heather Mac Donald is the Thomas W. Smith fellow at the Manhattan Institute and author of The Diversity Delusion (St. Martin’s Press) and The War on Cops (Encounter).
That's a good article. The Great Toilet Paper Frenzy of 2020 just needs to be reigned in with a little sanity.

This is particularly striking:

"No child under the age of nine has died from the illness worldwide. In China, only one individual in the ten-to-nineteen age group has succumbed."

Then why are we all hunkered down in our bomb shelters, eating spam and (apparently) pooping too much?
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Coronavirus Craziness

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

henry quirk wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 12:53 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sun Mar 15, 2020 9:52 pm ''carona won't come near the flu in mortality.''

I don't know how you work that out. The mortality rate in the old is close to 15 percent, but overall it's estimated at 2 percent (conservative). Seasonal flu is .1 percent. That makes covid-19 20 times deadlier. There is also a vaccine for seasonal flu. I suppose only the rich can get it in your country though.
Mortality rates don't get pinned down during, only after.

Simply: we have incomplete data with which we can mebbe make some educated guesses, but no hard declarations.

As for flu vaccinations: anyone here who wants one can get one. They're inexpensive.

Again: Wash your hands, stop bein' so touch-feely with others, consult your doc if you're worried, stop lookin' to gov for solutions and calm down.
True. Americans will be forced to tone down their annoying habit of hugging everyone. Barf.
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Coronavirus Craziness

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

commonsense wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 3:49 pm
Age wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:25 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 8:13 am
I mean humans don't have immunity to covid-19.
So, to you, those humans who do actually have an immunity to covid-19 do not exist?
Those humans who have recovered from Covid 19 will have a natural immunity to the virus that made them ill.
Do they know that? It part of the same group of viruses that cause the common cold and you can get colds over and over again.
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: perspective

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

henry quirk wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 3:46 pm https://newcriterion.com/blogs/dispatch ... ed-to-what

Compared to what?
by Heather Mac Donald

On the misguided response to covid-19.

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Compared to what? That should be the question that every fear-mongering news story on the coronavirus has to start with. So far, the United States has seen forty-one deaths from the infection. Twenty-two of those deaths occurred in one poorly run nursing home outside of Seattle, the Life Care Center. Another nine deaths occurred in the rest of Washington state, leaving ten deaths (four in California, two in Florida, and one in each of Georgia, Kansas, New Jersey, and South Dakota) spread throughout the rest of the approximately 329 million residents of the United States. This represents roughly .000012 percent of the U.S. population.

Much has been made of the “exponential” rate of infection in European and Asian countries—as if the spread of all transmittable diseases did not develop along geometric, as opposed to arithmetic, growth patterns. What actually matters is whether or not the growing “pandemic” overwhelms our ability to ensure the well-being of U.S. residents with efficiency and precision. But fear of the disease, and not the disease itself, has already spoiled that for us. Even if my odds of dying from coronavirus should suddenly jump ten-thousand-fold, from the current rate of .000012 percent across the U.S. population all the way up to .12 percent, I’d happily take those odds over the destruction being wrought on the U.S. and global economy from this unbridled panic.

By comparison, there were 38,800 traffic fatalities in the United States in 2019, the National Safety Council estimates. That represents an average of over one hundred traffic deaths every day; if the press catalogued these in as much painstaking detail as they have deaths from coronavirus, highways nationwide would be as empty as New York subways are now. Even assuming that coronavirus deaths in the United States increase by a factor of one thousand over the year, the resulting deaths would only outnumber annual traffic deaths by 2,200. Shutting down highways would have a much more positive effect on the U.S. mortality rate than shutting down the U.S. economy to try to prevent the spread of the virus.

There have been 5,123 deaths worldwide so far—also a fraction of traffic deaths worldwide. And unlike coronavirus, driving kills indiscriminately, mowing down the young and the old, the sick and the healthy. The coronavirus, by comparison, is targeted in its lethality, overwhelmingly striking the elderly or the already severely sick. As of Monday, approximately 89 percent of Italy’s coronavirus deaths had been over the age of seventy, according to The Wall Street Journal. Sad to say, those victims were already nearing the end of their lifespans. They might have soon died from another illness. No child under the age of nine has died from the illness worldwide. In China, only one individual in the ten-to-nineteen age group has succumbed.

Comparing the relative value of lives makes for grisly calculus, but one is forced to ask: are we missing the forest for the trees? If the measures we undertake to protect a vulnerable few end up exposing them, along with the rest of society, to even more damaging risks—was it worth the cost?

An example: there were 34,200 deaths in the United States during the 2018–19 influenza season, estimates the cdc. We did not shut down public events and institutions to try to slow the spread of the flu. Yet we have already destroyed $5 trillion in stock market wealth over the last few weeks in the growing coronavirus panic, reports The New York Times, wiping out retirement savings for many.

The number of cases in most afflicted countries is paltry. As of today, 127 countries had reported some cases, but forty-eight of those countries had fewer than ten cases, according to Worldometer. At this point, more people have recovered from the virus than are still sick. But the damage to people’s livelihoods through the resulting economic contraction is real and widespread. Its health consequences will be more severe than those of the coronavirus, as Steve Malanga shows in City Journal. The people who can least afford to lose jobs will be the hardest hit by the assault on tourism. Small entrepreneurs, whether in manufacturing or the service sector, will struggle to stay afloat. Such unjustified, unpredicted economic havoc undermines government legitimacy.

President Trump has been criticized for not being apocalyptic enough in his press conferences. In fact, he should be even more skeptical of the panic than he has been. He should relentlessly put the coronavirus risk into context with opioid deaths, homicide deaths—about sixteen thousand a year in the United States—flu deaths, and traffic deaths. One might have thought New York governor Andrew Cuomo a voice of reason when, a few days ago, he tried to tamp down the hysteria in a press conference, saying: “This is not Ebola, this is not sars, this is not some science fiction movie come to life. The hysteria here is way out of line with the actuality and the facts.” And yet since then he called a state of emergency in New York, and he and Mayor Bill de Blasio have all but shut down the New York City economy. They, like most all U.S. politicians nowadays, have shown an overwhelming impulse to be irrationally risk-averse.

Rather than indiscriminately shutting down public events and travel, we should target prevention where it is most needed: in nursing homes and hospitals.

It is hard to imagine that the panicked leaders and populace of today would have been able to triumph in the last century’s World Wars. America’s colleges sent off thousands of their young men to fight and die in those wars; those students went off with conviction and courage. Currently, colleges and universities are shutting down with no hint of the virus in their vicinity. Would today’s panicked leaders and populace be able to triumph in the face of a World War, or some other legitimately comparable threat? Let’s hope that we do not have to find out.
Heather Mac Donald is the Thomas W. Smith fellow at the Manhattan Institute and author of The Diversity Delusion (St. Martin’s Press) and The War on Cops (Encounter).
Ironically, far more people died of the 'Spanish' flu epidemic spread by returning WW1 soldiers than the actual war. That killed every age group. This one, so far, has killed pretty much only old people--which can't be a bad thing anyway. Perhaps that's why politicians have been so extreme in their reaction; old people vote, and they are a powerful political group. If they don't find a vaccine soon the world's economy will be destroyed and we will go back to the third world.
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Dontaskme
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Re: perspective

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Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 3:52 pm
henry quirk wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 3:46 pm https://newcriterion.com/blogs/dispatch ... ed-to-what

Compared to what?
by Heather Mac Donald

Heather Mac Donald is the Thomas W. Smith fellow at the Manhattan Institute and author of The Diversity Delusion (St. Martin’s Press) and The War on Cops (Encounter).
That's a good article. The Great Toilet Paper Frenzy of 2020 just needs to be reigned in with a little sanity.

This is particularly striking:

"No child under the age of nine has died from the illness worldwide. In China, only one individual in the ten-to-nineteen age group has succumbed."

Then why are we all hunkered down in our bomb shelters, eating spam and (apparently) pooping too much?
Because children are part of the whole operating system that is the human story.

We all have to hunker down else we overwhelm the hospitals due to too many people getting ill all at the same time.

Lock-downs make sense in slowing down the inevitable oncoming tsunami from swamping the whole in one gulp.

There were 368 deaths IN ONE DAY in Italy yesterday.


.
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: perspective

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Dontaskme wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:21 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 3:52 pm
henry quirk wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 3:46 pm https://newcriterion.com/blogs/dispatch ... ed-to-what

Compared to what?
by Heather Mac Donald

Heather Mac Donald is the Thomas W. Smith fellow at the Manhattan Institute and author of The Diversity Delusion (St. Martin’s Press) and The War on Cops (Encounter).
That's a good article. The Great Toilet Paper Frenzy of 2020 just needs to be reigned in with a little sanity.

This is particularly striking:

"No child under the age of nine has died from the illness worldwide. In China, only one individual in the ten-to-nineteen age group has succumbed."

Then why are we all hunkered down in our bomb shelters, eating spam and (apparently) pooping too much?
Because children are part of the whole operating system that is the human story.

We all have to hunker down else we overwhelm the hospitals due to too many people getting ill all at the same time.

Lock-downs make sense in slowing down the inevitable oncoming tsunami from swamping the whole in one gulp.

There were 368 deaths IN ONE DAY in Italy yesterday.


.
If children start getting it then they should get priority but of course that won't happen. It will be old farts taking up all the hospital beds.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: perspective

Post by Immanuel Can »

Dontaskme wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:21 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 3:52 pm
henry quirk wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 3:46 pm https://newcriterion.com/blogs/dispatch ... ed-to-what

Compared to what?
by Heather Mac Donald

Heather Mac Donald is the Thomas W. Smith fellow at the Manhattan Institute and author of The Diversity Delusion (St. Martin’s Press) and The War on Cops (Encounter).
That's a good article. The Great Toilet Paper Frenzy of 2020 just needs to be reigned in with a little sanity.

This is particularly striking:

"No child under the age of nine has died from the illness worldwide. In China, only one individual in the ten-to-nineteen age group has succumbed."

Then why are we all hunkered down in our bomb shelters, eating spam and (apparently) pooping too much?
Because children are part of the whole operating system that is the human story.
Did you not read the article? Are you seriously trying to argue that the one "child" (actually a teen: do you read?) who died in China, in the entire history so far of this virus, means that all the countries in the world should immediately shut down?

And you're thinking I was suggesting, "Children don't matter"? :shock: :shock: :shock:

Man, get some reading glasses. :roll:
Last edited by Immanuel Can on Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: perspective

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Dontaskme wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:21 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 3:52 pm
henry quirk wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 3:46 pm https://newcriterion.com/blogs/dispatch ... ed-to-what

Compared to what?
by Heather Mac Donald

Heather Mac Donald is the Thomas W. Smith fellow at the Manhattan Institute and author of The Diversity Delusion (St. Martin’s Press) and The War on Cops (Encounter).
That's a good article. The Great Toilet Paper Frenzy of 2020 just needs to be reigned in with a little sanity.

This is particularly striking:

"No child under the age of nine has died from the illness worldwide. In China, only one individual in the ten-to-nineteen age group has succumbed."

Then why are we all hunkered down in our bomb shelters, eating spam and (apparently) pooping too much?
Because children are part of the whole operating system that is the human story.

We all have to hunker down else we overwhelm the hospitals due to too many people getting ill all at the same time.

Lock-downs make sense in slowing down the inevitable oncoming tsunami from swamping the whole in one gulp.

There were 368 deaths IN ONE DAY in Italy yesterday.


.
Italy has more elderly people than any other country--and they are the ones who are dying along with a small number of younger people with compromised immune systems.
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Dontaskme
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Re: perspective

Post by Dontaskme »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:41 pm Are you seriously trying to argue that the one "child" (actually a teen: do you read?) who died in China, in the entire history so far of this virus, means that all the countries in the world should immediately shut down?
No I'm not trying to argue that at all.
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:41 pmAnd you're thinking I was suggesting, "Children don't matter"? :shock: :shock: :shock:

No, I wasn't thinking you were suggesting that at all.

I was agreeing with the plan to lock-down whole societies simply because it make sense to do so. Even though children are not within the critical risk category.

Now, kids being kids, they will resist being locked down, so it's just going to be tough love for them I'm afraid.

.
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Re: perspective

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vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:41 pm
Italy has more elderly people than any other country--and they are the ones who are dying along with a small number of younger people with compromised immune systems.
Yes, and here in Britain, the over 80's will not receive any treatment, if the situation becomes too critical, and it will be the younger people who will take precedence. So the elderly must be really scared.
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Re: perspective

Post by attofishpi »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:41 pm Italy has more elderly people than any other country--and they are the ones who are dying along with a small number of younger people with compromised immune systems.
...and wot the fuc is wrong with dying? ...anyone would think people have no comprehension of what a pointer recursing through matter is.
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Re: perspective

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Dontaskme wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:55 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:41 pm
Italy has more elderly people than any other country--and they are the ones who are dying along with a small number of younger people with compromised immune systems.
Yes, and here in Britain, the over 80's will not receive any treatment, if the situation becomes too critical, and it will be the younger people who will take precedence. So the elderly must be really scared.
And as far as I can tell, the fuckwits who are stockpiling are not the elderly. Women can't get baby formula or paracetamol. No wipes for their babies. For fuck sake! People are stockpiling that stuff when they don't even have a baby!
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Re: Coronavirus Craziness

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:twisted:
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Immanuel Can
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Re: perspective

Post by Immanuel Can »

Dontaskme wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:51 pm I was agreeing with the plan to lock-down whole societies simply because it make sense to do so.
I'm thinking it doesn't. Did you read the article?

It shows we routinely accept risks FAR greater than the present virus, and we don't shut down societies as a result. That doesn't argue that we don't take reasonable precautions, such as hand washing, avoiding crowds, and so on; it means we don't "go postal" and start taking absurd ones, like locking everybody in their houses.
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Re: perspective

Post by attofishpi »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 5:07 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:51 pm I was agreeing with the plan to lock-down whole societies simply because it make sense to do so.
I'm thinking it doesn't. Did you read the article?

It shows we routinely accept risks FAR greater than the present virus, and we don't shut down societies as a result. That doesn't argue that we don't take reasonable precautions, such as hand washing, avoiding crowds, and so on; it means we don't "go postal" and start taking absurd ones, like locking everybody in their houses.
Dude dood. Do you comprehend what is upon mankind? Let the virus run riot like northern Italy?
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