Jesus was a Jew. Why do some Christians and Muslims hate Jews?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Jesus was a Jew. Why do some Christians and Muslims hate Jews?

Post by Immanuel Can »

gaffo wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:21 am thanks for reply - take your time on your top 3-4 books and why so (I'll be here next week).
I'll keep thinking. It's not easy to choose. I might have to suggest three or four, but maybe change my mind, too.
per my view of Job differing from yours, who so? curious.
My understanding of the ending of Job used to be the same as yours, essentially. I thought that God shows up and essentially says to Job, "You've got no right to talk like that." And I felt that way, because God doesn't answer Job's direct question, and instead says to him, "Where were you, when I made the heavens and the earth..." and so on. That struck me as a kind of shut-down, at first.

I now no longer think that.

Having read the book many more times now, I've caught the thought-flow much better. As you no doubt know, Job deals with the question of pain and suffering. In particular, it's "Why do bad things happen to good people?" And I don't know a single person who hasn't asked him or herself that question at some point. I think it's a fair one.

But apparently, so does God. Because not only does God not "smite" Job for asking it, he doesn't ever tell him he had no right to ask. Moreover, he doesn't get angry with Job at the end, but with Job's friends, who were spouting all the pat and easy answers to the question of divine fairness. In fact, God says to Job, "You'd better pray for your smug friends; because if you don't, I won't forgive them for what they've said to you, my friend, and what they've said about me." So Job prays for them, and God forgives them for Job's sake.

Doesn't sound like God's mad at Job.

So what does that answer mean, "Where were you when I made the heavens and the earth"? I think the answer is this. God is saying, "Job, you come to me and ask me a question as big as the Pacific Ocean...but in your hands is only a tiny cup. You come to ask for the mystery of evil, but you are only one human, with your tiny brain. You weren't around for past millennia, and you haven't seen the future. What's more, you understand very, very little even of what's presently going on. So at some point, you're going to have to give up the expectation that at some point I'm going to explain it all to you -- not because I'm not being forthcoming with you, but because I can give you no truthful answer you can comprehend."

"So," concludes God, "you need to trust me, instead."

That, I think is the ending of Job. Not God saying, "Shut up," but God saying, "I'm just as great and good as you have always believed I am, but my ways are beyond your ways, and beyond your comprehension. Yet, if you trust me, I will remain your God and you will remain my friend."
same with my missing Jonah's purpose per your view.
I would say it speaks more of the graciousness of God than of Jonah's general compassion to humanity. Jonah doesn't even like the Ninevites, and in fact, wants them all under the judgment of God. His complaint against God is,

But it greatly displeased Jonah and he became angry. He prayed to the Lord and said, “Please Lord, was not this what I said while I was still in my own country? Therefore in order to forestall this I fled to Tarshish, for I knew that You are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, and one who relents concerning calamity...."

He's mad at God for being kind. And God's reply to him is,

"Should I not have compassion on Nineveh, the great city in which there are more than 120,000 persons...?"

That's how he fixes Jonah. He tells him, "I'm not just a God who shows mercy to Jews, but to Gentiles as well. And you, Jonah, have more sympathy for a houseplant than you do for a human being."

Ouch. What a burn.

Hardly a Humanist message, though, since it is God who has the compassion, and humans like Jonah who severely lack it.
peace.
Shalom.
gaffo
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Re: Jesus was a Jew. Why do some Christians and Muslims hate Jews?

Post by gaffo »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:32 pm
gaffo wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:21 am thanks for reply - take your time on your top 3-4 books and why so (I'll be here next week).
I'll keep thinking. It's not easy to choose. I might have to suggest three or four, but maybe change my mind, too.
good, think upon, and i will value your view of those works (i read the below reply to me, you have a mind and heart, and so i welcome your picks of your top 3 - take your time Sir.


per my view of Job differing from yours, who so? curious.
My understanding of the ending of Job used to be the same as yours, essentially. I thought that God shows up and essentially says to Job, "You've got no right to talk like that." And I felt that way, because God doesn't answer Job's direct question, and instead says to him, "Where were you, when I made the heavens and the earth..." and so on. That struck me as a kind of shut-down, at first.

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:32 pm I now no longer think that.

This is my view of the works also. but i read your below too - and it is also my view!

so did i make a circle a square? or your later view is an expansion of your former view?

-------- I only know from this post you do not see the former and the latter views as in conformity.

I see not contradiction. in fact i view my view as yours! - and its both your former and your latter.

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:32 pm Having read the book many more times now, I've caught the thought-flow much better. As you no doubt know, Job deals with the question of pain and suffering. In particular, it's "Why do bad things happen to good people?" And I don't know a single person who hasn't asked him or herself that question at some point. I think it's a fair one.
precisely!!!!!!!!!! thanks for getting to the point and theme of Job (better than i did last week).

agreed!

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:32 pm But apparently, so does God. Because not only does God not "smite" Job for asking it, he doesn't ever tell him he had no right to ask. Moreover, he doesn't get angry with Job at the end, but with Job's friends, who were spouting all the pat and easy answers to the question of divine fairness. In fact, God says to Job, "You'd better pray for your smug friends; because if you don't, I won't forgive them for what they've said to you, my friend, and what they've said about me." So Job prays for them, and God forgives them for Job's sake.
excellent analysis of the work (I suspect you know it better than me! - and welcome your wisdom on it!) i agree fully!

BTW here is another - Jewish Orthodox man with insight about the work with a YT video about the book - and i ran across 5 yrs ago and agree with:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9LB47o4Q9M

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:32 pm Doesn't sound like God's mad at Job.

???????????? i never thought your God was mad as Job at any time in that work.

??

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:32 pm So what does that answer mean, "Where were you when I made the heavens and the earth"? I think the answer is this. God is saying, "Job, you come to me and ask me a question as big as the Pacific Ocean...but in your hands is only a tiny cup. You come to ask for the mystery of evil, but you are only one human, with your tiny brain. You weren't around for past millennia, and you haven't seen the future. What's more, you understand very, very little even of what's presently going on. So at some point, you're going to have to give up the expectation that at some point I'm going to explain it all to you -- not because I'm not being forthcoming with you, but because I can give you no truthful answer you can comprehend."

"So," concludes God, "you need to trust me, instead."
I agree!

so we are in agreement per the book of Job!

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:32 pm That, I think is the ending of Job. Not God saying, "Shut up,"
I agree, and why i value Job and its author as better than "shut up" - was that your view of my view of that work? - its not!
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:32 pm but God saying, "I'm just as great and good as you have always believed I am, but my ways are beyond your ways, and beyond your comprehension. Yet, if you trust me, I will remain your God and you will remain my friend."
i agree! - though a Hellbound Athiest dog - dog for being an Athiest, not due to my character/moral compass - per dogma (Jewish.christian,hindu,or muslim/etc). to not "beleive" in a/they Gods via lack of empiricism - make all athiest dogs and worthy of Hellfire forever, even if folks with a conscience in this life.

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:32 pm
same with my missing Jonah's purpose per your view.
I would say it speaks more of the graciousness of God than of Jonah's general compassion to humanity. Jonah doesn't even like the Ninevites, and in fact, wants them all under the judgment of God. His complaint against God is,

But it greatly displeased Jonah and he became angry. He prayed to the Lord and said, “Please Lord, was not this what I said while I was still in my own country? Therefore in order to forestall this I fled to Tarshish, for I knew that You are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, and one who relents concerning calamity...."

He's mad at God for being kind. And God's reply to him is,

"Should I not have compassion on Nineveh, the great city in which there are more than 120,000 persons...?"

That's how he fixes Jonah. He tells him, "I'm not just a God who shows mercy to Jews, but to Gentiles as well. And you, Jonah, have more sympathy for a houseplant than you do for a human being."

Ouch. What a burn.
Exactly! - so we in fact not only have the same view about Job, but the same view about Jonah as well!!!!!!!!! (though me being an Atheist will burn forever after my death - lovely).

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:32 pm Hardly a Humanist message, though, since it is God who has the compassion, and humans like Jonah who severely lack it.
?????????????????

Jonah is a Humanist message via the "cows of Nineva" wearing sackcloth, and the heathen (for not affirm the "true" God) greek fishermen caring more about doing the right thing, then the so called "Jew" Jonah (who is an asshole - from begining to end of that work) - and the point of that work.

i.e. crossing T's and dotting I's but an asshole = asshole

not knowing about T's nor I's as a heathen/pagan, but being of good/moral nature - though worshiping wrong Gods - makes you an ignorant Saint.

not an Asshole.

and worshiping the correct God- if you are an asshole, does not make you not an asshole.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:32 pm
peace.
Shalom.

peace to you Sir, and thanks for your reply (I agreed with all of it - though an atheist).

we have the same views of both Job and Jonah (not sure why you thought otherwise).

I show wisdom/understand about both those works!!!!

I'm not more interested in what works you value more! - since my most valued were those 2, and Amos and 4th place Mark.

---------i welcome your views upon (you have the trifecta, heart, mind, and learning. I weclome your top three bible works.

for me to concur with or desparage - lol.
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Re: Jesus was a Jew. Why do some Christians and Muslims hate Jews?

Post by gaffo »

Mr Kant, you and i have been talking here for what? 2 or 3 yrs?

i have a personal wish from me to you - where are you from? (big secret i know) - i think you are a Canuke,

do you think i am a man of honour? i think you do (I'm an american, spell honour as so instead of honor, but not color as colour - why no clue, have for decades, my dyslexia may be an excuse?

anyway, there is a PM - i am a man of honour, I'd really like to know your nationality, and ask you as one gentleman to another (thought hell bound) to PM me to know where you are are from/your citizenship).

just an ask here - though i am an immoral atheist, you can count on my word (can you? does an Atheist's word not count - regardless of the the person) to not out your nationality.

we've been "talking" for 2 yrs now, i value your mindset, and just curious of your national origin thats all.

I'm an American, of Oklahoma - 30 yrs ago and since a Registered Independant, but Democrat in overall mindset (reg ind due to PC mindset - so an old school dem, but PC took over dens and so reg independant - reich bugs i have nothing in common, valuing fascism.

welcome where you are from sir - via PM, assuming you affirm i am an honourable man and you nPM me about it.


;-/
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Jesus was a Jew. Why do some Christians and Muslims hate Jews?

Post by Immanuel Can »

gaffo wrote: Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:58 am Mr Kant, you and i have been talking here for what? 2 or 3 yrs?

i have a personal wish from me to you - where are you from? (big secret i know)

Well, I have this idea that what a man says should be taken on its own merits, or rejected on its own merits. So no offence intended, G., but it's just not at all relevant to this public forum. Were I from anywhere, it would not have any effect on what I say, since I never make myself a factor in my arguments.

I prefer to decline.
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Re: Jesus was a Jew. Why do some Christians and Muslims hate Jews?

Post by gaffo »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:19 am
gaffo wrote: Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:58 am Mr Kant, you and i have been talking here for what? 2 or 3 yrs?

i have a personal wish from me to you - where are you from? (big secret i know)

Well, I have this idea that what a man says should be taken on its own merits, or rejected on its own merits. So no offence intended, G., but it's just not at all relevant to this public forum. Were I from anywhere, it would not have any effect on what I say, since I never make myself a factor in my arguments.

I prefer to decline.
ok, i respect your freewill, however welcome your reversal in the future months/years.

more imporantly i'd like your reply to the other thread Jonah/Job where i saw and respected and agreed with all you said about.
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Re: Jesus was a Jew. Why do some Christians and Muslims hate Jews?

Post by gaffo »

BTW i do respect you (though dissagree about many things) - i think it is reciprocated, but if not i'm sure you will let me know it.

I'm still looking forward to your top 3 or 4 works of your Bible, so we can discuss...........though i am just an amimal heathen athiest worthy of no afterlife, or if so of eternal torment by a just and moral god.
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Re: Jesus was a Jew. Why do some Christians and Muslims hate Jews?

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gaffo wrote: Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:39 am BTW i do respect you (though dissagree about many things) - i think it is reciprocated, but if not i'm sure you will let me know it.
Of course it is. We keep things very civil, I think.
I'm still looking forward to your top 3 or 4 works of your Bible, so we can discuss...........
I don't really think of my Bible that way, in all honesty. It's not as if I think some books are great, and some are "throw aways." They have a very complex relation to each other, both thematically and theologically. Take one bit out, and you've got a worse book overall.

I've mentioned earlier some books I find personal reasons to like, but there have been times I liked others. It's a tough question, because much of what one book says is so indebted to other books. For example, I like Hebrews...but what's the chance of understanding Hebrews for a person doesn't already happen to know Torah? And I like Matthew's gospel for some reasons, but like Luke's for others. For theology, I'd say Romans...and Galatians. For the problem of suffering, Job, of course...but also James. So it's really hard to pick. You get the idea.
...though i am just an amimal heathen athiest worthy of no afterlife, or if so of eternal torment by a just and moral god.
It's interesting to me that you mention this sort of idea fairly often. Is something on your mind?
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Re: Jesus was a Jew. Why do some Christians and Muslims hate Jews?

Post by gaffo »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:51 am
gaffo wrote: Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:39 am BTW i do respect you (though dissagree about many things) - i think it is reciprocated, but if not i'm sure you will let me know it.
Of course it is. We keep things very civil, I think.
I'm still looking forward to your top 3 or 4 works of your Bible, so we can discuss...........
I don't really think of my Bible that way, in all honesty. It's not as if I think some books are great, and some are "throw aways." They have a very complex relation to each other, both thematically and theologically. Take one bit out, and you've got a worse book overall.

I've mentioned earlier some books I find personal reasons to like, but there have been times I liked others. It's a tough question, because much of what one book says is so indebted to other books. For example, I like Hebrews...but what's the chance of understanding Hebrews for a person doesn't already happen to know Torah? And I like Matthew's gospel for some reasons, but like Luke's for others. For theology, I'd say Romans...and Galatians. For the problem of suffering, Job, of course...but also James. So it's really hard to pick. You get the idea.

I understand you are a Beleiver - so all the books form a big picture of spripture for you. i understand that viewpoint.

As you prob know i do not have that view, seeing each work separate to pick and choose which i like best as an atheist.

------------- so i do understand you view here, but would like if you can sometime in the future if able to parse top works you value most and why.............(i may not have even read then, then i will have to read them first! - but lazy so prob will not read them - just being honest here.)

I like Jubaless btw, not canon - but should be and affirmed by jews of 200AD with Enoch (I like enoch too - but jubaless moreso) - not read either since the 1990's,

animals talked with adam via jubaless - prior to the "Fall" - when man no longer as just one the the animals, and so separated (and the lion no longer eat straw, but lambs (the "Fall" infected not just man but all of creation including some animals - creation of carnivores (and why some Jews in Jesus's time were vegitarias -strive to become one more in line with prior fall)))



Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:51 am
...though i am just an amimal heathen athiest worthy of no afterlife, or if so of eternal torment by a just and moral god.
It's interesting to me that you mention this sort of idea fairly often. Is something on your mind?
I do mention it often. i am an athiest, so that according to Beleivers - you and others (of any Faith) - state that i shall burn forever, as it is written.

its self evident, i'm a retrobate - per Pauline dogma - so why do you bother conversing with me, at the very least i might convert you to my born to burn atheism.

you are better off just condemning me to Belial's Hell and not reply to me at all in the future.

Born to Burn! - F.o.r.e.v.e.r.
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Re: Jesus was a Jew. Why do some Christians and Muslims hate Jews?

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gaffo wrote: Sun Feb 23, 2020 5:39 am I do mention it often. i am an athiest, so that according to Beleivers - you and others (of any Faith) - state that i shall burn forever, as it is written.
I'm not in a position to say if that's what will be.

However, if, at the Judgment, it turns out to be as you say, and you are alienated from God, it will only be because you have chosen it. One does not have to make that choice, so the element of hopelessness and pre-determination in your wording simply isn't real. You aren't fated...you get to choose.

In relation to God, you can choose to be what you want to be. That's what it means to be a free creature. You choose your situation. If I'm right, and God is the Source of all Goodness, Light, Health and Love, then to choose to alienate oneself from Him would be exceedingly unwise. But what it means to be free is this: that one can make the right choice and one can also make the wrong choice. And to have a genuine choice, a choice that actually, so to speak "makes any difference," one also has to be allowed to live with what one has chosen.

So God speaks this way: "As I live!" declares the Lord God, "I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live..." (Eze. 33:11) For you to be a free creature, it's unavoidable that you are permitted to make either choice. But God is not pleased with bad things happening to you, and implores you to make the right choice.

One cannot be fairer than that -- at least, not and at the same time allow a free creature to choose his own path.
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Re: Jesus was a Jew. Why do some Christians and Muslims hate Jews?

Post by gaffo »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:15 pm
gaffo wrote: Sun Feb 23, 2020 5:39 am I do mention it often. i am an athiest, so that according to Beleivers - you and others (of any Faith) - state that i shall burn forever, as it is written.
I'm not in a position to say if that's what will be.

However, if, at the Judgment, it turns out to be as you say, and you are alienated from God, it will only be because you have chosen it. One does not have to make that choice, so the element of hopelessness and pre-determination in your wording simply isn't real. You aren't fated...you get to choose.

In relation to God, you can choose to be what you want to be. That's what it means to be a free creature. You choose your situation. If I'm right, and God is the Source of all Goodness, Light, Health and Love, then to choose to alienate oneself from Him would be exceedingly unwise. But what it means to be free is this: that one can make the right choice and one can also make the wrong choice. And to have a genuine choice, a choice that actually, so to speak "makes any difference," one also has to be allowed to live with what one has chosen.

So God speaks this way: "As I live!" declares the Lord God, "I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live..." (Eze. 33:11) For you to be a free creature, it's unavoidable that you are permitted to make either choice. But God is not pleased with bad things happening to you, and implores you to make the right choice.

One cannot be fairer than that -- at least, not and at the same time allow a free creature to choose his own path.
Then i shall just assume i will be an Atheist until my death, than finding myself in Hell, your God will allow me salvation from that place of torment finding myself wrong about no afterlife (you bible imples that your God will not allow me salvation from that place - if that is your God limited nature - so be it - i'm just sayin here (we ben here many time now Sir).


thanks for reply BTW.

I like Ezekiel BTW - he rejected inherited sin concept which sadly the Torah affirms.
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Re: Jesus was a Jew. Why do some Christians and Muslims hate Jews?

Post by Immanuel Can »

gaffo wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 1:11 am Then i shall just assume i will be an Atheist until my death,
Why?

Why hold a position that is incapable of rational warrant, and is self-destructive in implication as well?
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Re: Jesus was a Jew. Why do some Christians and Muslims hate Jews?

Post by gaffo »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 3:22 am
gaffo wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 1:11 am Then i shall just assume i will be an Atheist until my death,
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 3:22 am Why?
i just assume i will be so since i've been an Athist since age 12 - 1978 so far i an still an athiest,

I just use math - 2/3rd toward the grave, and so far the same athiest i was when i as only 1/8 toward the same grave.

so just assuming i shall remain so.

i just use math here and probability, sure i might have a "Revalation" and convert to your Religion and your God, but per the last 40 yrs i do not see that.

and i'm ok with it.

either your God exists - and if he does he is not a dick - and offer my salvation via Hell.

and if not? (exists but is a dick) - then i'll just sit in Hell forever after finding him.

if so, sad about, but so be it.


Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 3:22 am Why hold a position that is incapable of rational warrant, and is self-destructive in implication as well?
per my view Atheism is the outcome of reason - empiriscm(sp) - lact of evidence of "god/s" in this life at least.

"self-destructive"??????????? no clue of your mentality here, welcome clarification.
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Re: Jesus was a Jew. Why do some Christians and Muslims hate Jews?

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gaffo wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 10:53 pm i've been an Athist since age 12 - 1978 so far i an still an athiest,
That's interesting. I've heard that many Atheists, if they come to it, come at a very young age. I think Richard Dawkins himself was 17. He claims he chose to be one for cerebral reasons, but that's got to raise a question: if someone decides to be an Atheist at 12 or 17, just how well-developed was the body of data that led to that decision?

Just asking.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 3:22 am Why hold a position that is incapable of rational warrant, and is self-destructive in implication as well?
per my view Atheism is the outcome of reason - empiriscm(sp) - lact of evidence of "god/s" in this life at least.
This is what I'm wondering about. If "lack of evidence" is the only evidence in evidence, just how much does that really rationally warrant?

The statement, Well, I've never seen God is, perhaps, a sufficient reason for suspending one's personal conclusion about the subject until more information comes in, but isn't any warrant at all for guessing that nobody else has any information about God, or that one won't have better information in the future oneself. Rather, I would think it warrants leaving one's mind open...maybe there is a God, and maybe somebody knows something about it...why wouldn't one be open to that, since all one has oneself is an absence of any evidence either way?
"self-destructive"???????????
To be an Atheist is to foreclose on the possibility of any relationship with God.

If relationship with God is the most important thing in existence, and if it is available, then to foreclose in this way is the most damaging thing one can do to one's own happiness, well-being and prospects, surely.
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Re: Jesus was a Jew. Why do some Christians and Muslims hate Jews?

Post by gaffo »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 12:03 am
gaffo wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 10:53 pm i've been an Athist since age 12 - 1978 so far i an still an athiest,
That's interesting. I've heard that many Atheists, if they come to it, come at a very young age. I think Richard Dawkins himself was 17. He claims he chose to be one for cerebral reasons, but that's got to raise a question: if someone decides to be an Atheist at 12 or 17, just how well-developed was the body of data that led to that decision?

Just asking.
fair asking, one can only say at age 12 most kids are less wise than 30 yr old and same for the latter WRT to 70 yr olds.

so ya - i was 12 back then, i do think i was born an "old soul" but also affirm with age come wisdom (so i hope i am wiser today than i was 40 yrs ago).

but i also believe in the concept of "old souls" - i rem a black kid - about 9 - in the checkout with his mom - seeing these "playing cards" with pictures of tanks on them, and asking his mom what the cards were about. she said it was about the Gulf war (1991) - he said "why are they there? cards? war is about death".

as your Jesus said from the mouths of babes.

but unlike your Jesus, i do think there are old souls (born life weary - thoughtful-mindufll (small in number sadly) - and some on the opposite side 9I know 70 yr old fools - having decades to learn wisdom via life, and still with less horse sense than the old soul 9 yr old out there.

you can't fix stupid/foolish - some folks were just born via DNA lack of wisdom genes to learn from life.

thankfully most of us are in the middle and "live- and years of living" offer wisdom to use with at least some wisdom genes to use to learn from/with.



Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 3:22 am Why hold a position that is incapable of rational warrant, and is self-destructive in implication as well?
per my view Atheism is the outcome of reason - empiriscm(sp) - lact of evidence of "god/s" in this life at least.
This is what I'm wondering about. If "lack of evidence" is the only evidence in evidence, just how much does that really rationally warrant?
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 12:03 am
The statement, Well, I've never seen God is, perhaps, a sufficient reason for suspending one's personal conclusion about the subject until more information comes in, but isn't any warrant at all for guessing that nobody else has any information about God, or that one won't have better information in the future oneself. Rather, I would think it warrants leaving one's mind open...maybe there is a God, and maybe somebody knows something about it...why wouldn't one be open to that, since all one has oneself is an absence of any evidence either way?
like guns gays and abortion babies the subject of "does God exist or not" literally bores me.

Robert Sheckley's Ask a Foolish Question (1950's short story) - is my view of my nature in the big picture and why "god exists/does not bores me")

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/33854/33 ... 3854-h.htm

I'm an ant, my nature is too low to "know God nature or even if he exists" - i do not fixate upon matters beyond my knowing. I assume he does not in this life via conventional empricsm, if in the next life i find myself wrong (GREAT! - I never like being an Athiest - its a negation of an aferlife (though an afterlife buring in hell forever offers no more appeal than my Athiest - less maybe even).

I'll leave my soul's fate up to your God (whether you speak for him or not) - either i will burn in hell forever or he will save me from that place upon me finding myself there and repent unto him for salvation.

not only can i not affirm you God - for being an ant and infinatly too small to know the mind of your God - nor can i change his nature, if he wishes burn me forever, then so i shall. i can't fix god.

until then i'll live my life a moral man that is also an athiest (the former is part of my identity, the latter is not). and leave the fate of my soul after my death to your God.

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 12:03 am
"self-destructive"???????????
To be an Atheist is to foreclose on the possibility of any relationship with God.
oh, thanks for reply to my iquary, i do not see my athiesm as closeminded mayself.

in fact i value an open mind in all things.

but thanks for clarifing your view of atheism.

BTW I just one Athiest, i only speak for myself and not "atheism"

I think both Darkins and Hitchens are/were hacks - don't respect either personally. neither are "Thinkers" just celebrities.


Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 12:03 am If relationship with God is the most important thing in existence, and if it is available, then to foreclose in this way is the most damaging thing one can do to one's own happiness, well-being and prospects, surely.
I agree fully Sir!

upon my death and finding myself wrong about there being no God, from Hell i shall find your God and hope to forge a personal relationship with him - if he is willing to do so (your God's mercy limited?).

otherwise i will have to burn forever. ;-/.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Jesus was a Jew. Why do some Christians and Muslims hate Jews?

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gaffo wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 12:35 am thankfully most of us are in the middle and "live- and years of living" offer wisdom to use with at least some wisdom genes to use to learn from/with.
:D
like guns gays and abortion babies the subject of "does God exist or not" literally bores me.
Well, why take a position on it, then?
I'm an ant, my nature is too low to "know God nature or even if he exists" - i do not fixate upon matters beyond my knowing. I assume he does not in this life via conventional empricsm, if in the next life i find myself wrong (GREAT! - I never like being an Athiest - its a negation of an aferlife (though an afterlife buring in hell forever offers no more appeal than my Athiest - less maybe even).
That's certainly a different picture than I would have of our situation. Though we might be immeasurably less than God, we are not "ants." The Christian view is that despite our distance, we are objects of the interest and affection of the Divine.

So that's quite different.
I'll leave my soul's fate up to your God

It's interesting how close that is, in some ways, to what He asks us to do. Not to think we can earn our way to Him, but rather to give up on all that, and say, to quote the words of Jesus in the Parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector, "God be merciful to me, the sinner."
oh, thanks for reply to my iquary, i do not see my athiesm as closeminded mayself.
This is the old debate, of course: is "Atheism" a denial of the existence of God, or merely a form of agnosticism, the more open-minded admission of not knowing.
I think both Darkins and Hitchens are/were hacks - don't respect either personally. neither are "Thinkers" just celebrities.
Well, Mr. Hitchens was a great rhetorician and stylist, but I agree that the arguments he offered were not very good ones. Mr. Dawkins, I think, lacks Hitchens' style, and his arguments aren't any better.

But what can one expect from somebody who made up his mind at 17?
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