FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:04 pm
It is flawed if it stops being useful for some reason. It is fixed if it becomes useful again under some modified paradigm.
OK, so what is "objectivity" useful for?
FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:04 pm
If that even means anything, it's not a useful objection. Moral philosophy is about looking at those rules of use that define the boundaries of our moral concepts. More or less anyway.
OK. Let it be so. What are moral concepts useful for?
FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:04 pm
No. It does roughly what I said. You aren't going to railroad me, you should stop trying.
I don't want to rail-road you. I want you to commit. You are trying to have it both ways.
FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:04 pm
If, for instance, there are incompatible competing subjective views on some matter, and there is some other information which can rule out the incorrect view and substantiate a correct one, that is objective under the rules of common usage.
That's incoherent. What is your epistemic criterion for "correctness" and "incorrectness"?
Languages and views develop as functions of goals/objectives.
Different goals/objectives produce different views/languages.
To dismiss a particular view/language as "incorrect" is to dismiss an objective/goal as "incorrect".
FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:04 pm
When I say some term is used as description within our shared common language, there will always be shared common rules for application of the term. That is how language and concepts work.
You are pre-supposing a shared/common language despite all contrary evidence. There are 7000 languages spoken on Earth - give or take a few hundred.
FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:04 pm
You have absolutely missed the point of a priori and a posteriori.
I don't think I have. History is immutable. The future is not.
FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:04 pm
Sure. If you decide to believe that the universe exists on a 20 dimensional flat plane then you an also describe the world as flat to anyone who is taking you seriously. But that shit is Hedgehog7 level nonsense so I don't care.
By what epistemic criteria for "nonsense" ?
FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:04 pm
Persuading anyone to accept whatever Ptolomaic model you are discussing sounds eyewateringly difficult to me and I see no problem with what I wrote there resulting from any of this.
Why are you pre-supposing anybody wants to persuade anybody of anything? If you think the Earth is round - that's your business. If I think that it's flat, and it doesn't get in my way of every day life (or yours) why are you trying change my views?
FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:04 pm
Sure. That's entirely compatible with everything I have written. We have that concept of objectivity because it is useful.
So then the entire argument reduces to utility. Useful
for what?
FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:04 pm
It helps us to sort information according to reliability, which is something we often want to do.
And why do we want to do that? If we have different reasons for "wanting to do something" does it mean that we can rank models differently?
I do that all the time! Earth is flat (while I am driving a car).
FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:04 pm
It's not so much that the concept is sub-ordinate to utility, there is no need for such a formalist approach. Every concept has to have utility, otherwise it doesn't get used. I'm never going to debate a useless concept, because, well, that seems like a waste of time.
So, I ask (again): what is the utility of "objectivity"? And far more importantly: who is objectivity useful to and for what purpose?
FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:04 pm
Not "my" notion. Either the term is grounded in suppositions of information that can be verified independently of any person's particular opinion, or it is not.
Yeah, but that's not the whole story. I am sure the information can be verified
within its domain of applicability.
If the theory's domain of applicability doesn't intersect with your utility-function - who cares?
FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:04 pm
I don't understand why I am still explaining that I am not pursuing certainty or equilibrium.
Well, what are you pursuing? If you are after utility, then state your [urlhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_function]utility function[/url].
FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:04 pm
That stuff would be for the moral objectivists - which appears not to be me! I am very clearly describing a state of moral affairs that is never going to be in perfect equilibrium, and I am trying to explain why that is OK, and not the same as arbitrary.
That entire line of reasoning reduces to standards of quality. I don't want perfect equilibrium - I am happy with good-enough things.
A strategy that reduces murder by 1% is better than a strategy that does fuckall.
FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:04 pm
That is "objectively speaking" in a colloqual sense.
Well, what other sense is there? The Philosophical, idealistic, eternally unachievable, Sysypian objectivity?
FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:04 pm
The reasonable man on the Clapham omnibus could be persuaded that I am not interested in objectivity. Prof likes to use that version of the word when he needs to equivocate between scientific objectivity and something some guy said once that sounded reasonable.
OK, but scientific objectivity is amounts to a Dutch Book argument. Being 70% wrong is better than being 95% wrong - it's the least worst gamble.
And that still brings the implicit assumption that "nobody wants to be wrong about X" - certainty.
FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:04 pm
There's an upper limit to the actual objectivity of information we describe as objective.
Yeah, but we don't know where that upper limit is. If we say the limit is X, but then we find a scientific model that gives us way more than X - surely you'll go with the better model?
You are still on the market for certainty...
FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:04 pm
If we set a standard for objectivity that requires us to view the universe from the outside in order to validate a claim, then we can't use the word to describe any information we will ever have.
And yet that's what the Pyrrhonists do! That's what philosophy does too with its insistence on deductive, rather than inductive methods.
FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:04 pm
So we don't do that. We use the term to describe information that we have a certain level of faith in, that is deemed testable in some way. It's imperfect in some sense and invites more radical skeptics than I to dismiss the existence of the universe. I don't care about that shit though, it's not very useful. Our concepts of objective/subjective are bounded by these possiblities, as they must be.
Sure, so can we focus on what "useful" means, and whether there's any chance of arriving at some "shared utility" and "shared goals" amongst humans?
Because if the answer is "no" - then objective morality (in the pragmatic, colloquial sense) is doomed
FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:04 pm
What I argue is that moral 'knowledge' is unattainable unless we accept that knowledge in this context is so very severely bounded by shared subjectivity that the word 'know' is being treated very badly. But in matters of real controversy, there is no set of external moral facts for us to look every question up against, and so we are limited to persuasion.
OK, but the Pyrrhonist would argue that your argument is a truism. Knowledge is unattainable. Full stop. To the Pyrrhonist knowledge mandates absolute certainty.
They are still on the market for certainty (just like you and I), but the Pyrrhonist is also a perfectionist. 99.9999999999999% certainty is not good enough.
FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:04 pm
Anybody who is able to join in the shared human activity of behaving morally will behave as-if their own understanding is correct and universal most of the time. And unless they are a complete **** they should be right enough for our purposes in most situations.
Well, yeah! That's what objective morality is (as far as I understand it). Enforced social norms.
FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:04 pm
Moral skepticism doesn't mean just runing around tea-bagging everyone you dislike until the cops taze you.
And the True Skeptic would ask: Why not? If you don't believe there are any moral principles then why concern yourself with social norms?
And if there are moral principles, then why does the "objective/subjective" distinction even matter?