The duty of the brain is to provide inputs to the mind

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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Veritas Aequitas
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Re: The duty of the brain is to provide inputs to the mind

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Fri Feb 21, 2020 7:44 am

bahman wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 7:23 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 6:54 am
bahman wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 6:40 am

There is one state of consciousness but several states of responsiveness. You are mixing these.
Only on state of consciousness??
You are living in your own silo world.
I suggest you google 'states of consciousness' to get out of that silo of yours.
A person either experience (is conscious) or doesn't (is not conscious). These are two states of consciousness, on or off. People who are in coma are conscious but they simply don't respond because the brain doesn't provide stimuli to them and if the brain does provide stimuli they cannot respond since the part of the brain that is responsible for the response is corrupted.
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 6:54 am
To don't use brain activity. Consciousness is an emergent phenomenon in your perspective so you should be able to measure it directly.
You are forcing your meaning of 'consciousness' into my concept of consciousness.
As explained my definition of consciousness and mind is different from yours.
I have already explained my definition of consciousness and the different states of consciousness and how they can be differentiated in terms of responsiveness and other measurements.
I am not forcing you to follow my definition of consciousness. Consciousness to me is not emergent and instead is a property of mind. Consciousness to you is an emergent phenomenon. It is something extra than brain activity. So if that is true then you should be able to measure it.
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 6:54 am

So you are basically against my theory without knowing what it is.
Note my subsequent comments on it re change of H20 from water to ice.
What do you mean? Do you understand my argument?
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 6:54 am

No, the only empirical evidence that you have is that you are conscious. You don't have any evidence that your consciousness is emergent.
I have empirical evidence humans are conscious.
Such a consciousness is an emerging phenomenon, i.e. emergent.
No. You only have evidence that humans are conscious. To show that consciousness is an emergent property you need to show that the person is not conscious before a specific time/condition and suddenly become conscious afterward. That is the meaning of emergence.
You are really stuck in your definition of 'consciousness' and 'mind'.

When you see ice emerging from a glass of ordinary water [subjected to reduction in temperature] is there anything 'extra' to the number of H20 molecules therein?
It is the same with the mind and consciousness, there is no extra molecules, basic matters or any 'substance' in the brain other than changes or states of the brain activities.

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bahman
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Re: The duty of the brain is to provide inputs to the mind

Post by bahman » Fri Feb 21, 2020 7:51 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 7:44 am
bahman wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 7:23 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 6:54 am

Only on state of consciousness??
You are living in your own silo world.
I suggest you google 'states of consciousness' to get out of that silo of yours.
A person either experience (is conscious) or doesn't (is not conscious). These are two states of consciousness, on or off. People who are in coma are conscious but they simply don't respond because the brain doesn't provide stimuli to them and if the brain does provide stimuli they cannot respond since the part of the brain that is responsible for the response is corrupted.
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 6:54 am

You are forcing your meaning of 'consciousness' into my concept of consciousness.
As explained my definition of consciousness and mind is different from yours.
I have already explained my definition of consciousness and the different states of consciousness and how they can be differentiated in terms of responsiveness and other measurements.
I am not forcing you to follow my definition of consciousness. Consciousness to me is not emergent and instead is a property of mind. Consciousness to you is an emergent phenomenon. It is something extra than brain activity. So if that is true then you should be able to measure it.
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 6:54 am

Note my subsequent comments on it re change of H20 from water to ice.
What do you mean? Do you understand my argument?
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 6:54 am

I have empirical evidence humans are conscious.
Such a consciousness is an emerging phenomenon, i.e. emergent.
No. You only have evidence that humans are conscious. To show that consciousness is an emergent property you need to show that the person is not conscious before a specific time/condition and suddenly become conscious afterward. That is the meaning of emergence.
You are really stuck in your definition of 'consciousness' and 'mind'.

When you see ice emerging from a glass of ordinary water [subjected to reduction in temperature] is there anything 'extra' to the number of H20 molecules therein?
It is the same with the mind and consciousness, there is no extra molecules, basic matters or any 'substance' in the brain other than changes or states of the brain activities.
There is change in the properties of H2O when it freezes. These changes are measurable. For example, water is a liquid whereas ice is solid.

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henry quirk
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Re: The duty of the brain is to provide inputs to the mind

Post by henry quirk » Fri Feb 21, 2020 3:50 pm

bahman, I note you never commented on ⬇️. Not worth your trouble?
henry quirk wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:50 am
Information can be carried in a radio wave. This Ipad I'm pokin' at, it receives and transmits a radio signal. The signal is conducted by a little box, the wifi hub sittin' on a desk about three feet away. The hub transceives signal, information zippin' around in a non-material form.

The Ipad is chockablock with information, in its matter, and in the configuration of the matter; the wifi hub too is chockablock with information in the same way the Ipad is. And both Ipad and hub are conductors of information. Me, I'm chockablock with information too, in the matter that comprises me, the configuration of that matter, and -- this part is unique to me -- the mind running on the matter.

As a deist, I say man is spirit and flesh. In context of the thread, I say man is information and matter.

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bahman
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Re: The duty of the brain is to provide inputs to the mind

Post by bahman » Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:08 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 3:50 pm
bahman, I note you never commented on ⬇️. Not worth your trouble?
henry quirk wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:50 am
Information can be carried in a radio wave. This Ipad I'm pokin' at, it receives and transmits a radio signal. The signal is conducted by a little box, the wifi hub sittin' on a desk about three feet away. The hub transceives signal, information zippin' around in a non-material form.

The Ipad is chockablock with information, in its matter, and in the configuration of the matter; the wifi hub too is chockablock with information in the same way the Ipad is. And both Ipad and hub are conductors of information. Me, I'm chockablock with information too, in the matter that comprises me, the configuration of that matter, and -- this part is unique to me -- the mind running on the matter.

As a deist, I say man is spirit and flesh. In context of the thread, I say man is information and matter.
Sorry. I just didn't want to repeat myself. As I mentioned, information is the formation of matter. We/minds get informed through this formation. The mind is different category. The mind is the thing that experiences the formation of matter. Let me know if things are not clear so I find some examples.

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henry quirk
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Re: The duty of the brain is to provide inputs to the mind

Post by henry quirk » Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:18 pm

The mind is different category.

Yeah, I said the same thing... 😒


I just didn't want to repeat myself

I know how you feel... 😒

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bahman
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Re: The duty of the brain is to provide inputs to the mind

Post by bahman » Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:59 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:18 pm
The mind is different category.

Yeah, I said the same thing... 😒


I just didn't want to repeat myself

I know how you feel... 😒
Sorry, but I think that you said that the spirit (mind in my vocabulary) is the information. That I disagree.

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henry quirk
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Re: The duty of the brain is to provide inputs to the mind

Post by henry quirk » Fri Feb 21, 2020 5:24 pm

bahman wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:59 pm
henry quirk wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:18 pm
The mind is different category.

Yeah, I said the same thing... 😒


I just didn't want to repeat myself

I know how you feel... 😒
Sorry, but I think that you said that the spirit (mind in my vocabulary) is the information. That I disagree.
And I disagree with you: pistols? At twenty paces?

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bahman
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Re: The duty of the brain is to provide inputs to the mind

Post by bahman » Fri Feb 21, 2020 5:26 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 5:24 pm
bahman wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:59 pm
henry quirk wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:18 pm
The mind is different category.

Yeah, I said the same thing... 😒


I just didn't want to repeat myself

I know how you feel... 😒
Sorry, but I think that you said that the spirit (mind in my vocabulary) is the information. That I disagree.
And I disagree with you: pistols? At twenty paces?
LOL.

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henry quirk
Posts: 7540
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm

Re: The duty of the brain is to provide inputs to the mind

Post by henry quirk » Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:25 pm

bahman wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 5:26 pm
henry quirk wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 5:24 pm
bahman wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:59 pm

Sorry, but I think that you said that the spirit (mind in my vocabulary) is the information. That I disagree.
And I disagree with you: pistols? At twenty paces?
LOL.
👍🏻

Dubious
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Re: The duty of the brain is to provide inputs to the mind

Post by Dubious » Sat Feb 22, 2020 12:19 am

Whatever the duty of the brain is is up to the brain to decide unless the mind decides what the brain should do! Since the mind is the upshot of the brain that would be like children telling what its parents should do...not always a bad idea!

Veritas Aequitas
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Re: The duty of the brain is to provide inputs to the mind

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Sat Feb 22, 2020 5:42 am

bahman wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 7:51 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 7:44 am
bahman wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 7:51 am
No. You only have evidence that humans are conscious. To show that consciousness is an emergent property you need to show that the person is not conscious before a specific time/condition and suddenly become conscious afterward. That is the meaning of emergence.
You are really stuck in your definition of 'consciousness' and 'mind'.

When you see ice emerging from a glass of ordinary water [subjected to reduction in temperature] is there anything 'extra' to the number of H20 molecules therein?
It is the same with the mind and consciousness, there is no extra molecules, basic matters or any 'substance' in the brain other than changes or states of the brain activities.
There is change in the properties of H2O when it freezes. These changes are measurable. For example, water is a liquid whereas ice is solid.
Note there is no change in the number of molecules of H2O.

There are also changes in the brain neurons with the emergence of the mind and its various states. Logically, these changes are also measurable.
Note this example;

Image

Note prior to conception there is no specific mind in the sperm or ovum.
There is also no human mind [as defined] during conception.
At a certain point after conception, there is an emergence of instinct or the instinctual mind if it has to be identified as such.
What qualify as a human mind [as evident] is when the person is self-aware at around 18 months and continue to develop and changes with age.
As you can see, the human mind emerges with changes in the neural connectivity within the brain of the person, the whole person, and its environment.

There is no mind which is an entity which came about to occupy the human person at any certain point in time.

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bahman
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Re: The duty of the brain is to provide inputs to the mind

Post by bahman » Sat Feb 22, 2020 7:54 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 5:42 am
bahman wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 7:51 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 7:44 am

You are really stuck in your definition of 'consciousness' and 'mind'.

When you see ice emerging from a glass of ordinary water [subjected to reduction in temperature] is there anything 'extra' to the number of H20 molecules therein?
It is the same with the mind and consciousness, there is no extra molecules, basic matters or any 'substance' in the brain other than changes or states of the brain activities.
There is change in the properties of H2O when it freezes. These changes are measurable. For example, water is a liquid whereas ice is solid.
Note there is no change in the number of molecules of H2O.

There are also changes in the brain neurons with the emergence of the mind and its various states. Logically, these changes are also measurable.
Note this example;

Image

Note prior to conception there is no specific mind in the sperm or ovum.
There is also no human mind [as defined] during conception.
At a certain point after conception, there is an emergence of instinct or the instinctual mind if it has to be identified as such.
What qualify as a human mind [as evident] is when the person is self-aware at around 18 months and continue to develop and changes with age.
As you can see, the human mind emerges with changes in the neural connectivity within the brain of the person, the whole person, and its environment.

There is no mind which is an entity which came about to occupy the human person at any certain point in time.
What you are showing is brain activity rather than the emergence of consciousness. Again, consciousness cannot be measured.

Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 4109
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: The duty of the brain is to provide inputs to the mind

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Sat Feb 22, 2020 8:05 am

bahman wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 7:54 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 5:42 am
bahman wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 7:51 am

There is change in the properties of H2O when it freezes. These changes are measurable. For example, water is a liquid whereas ice is solid.
Note there is no change in the number of molecules of H2O.

There are also changes in the brain neurons with the emergence of the mind and its various states. Logically, these changes are also measurable.
Note this example;

Image

Note prior to conception there is no specific mind in the sperm or ovum.
There is also no human mind [as defined] during conception.
At a certain point after conception, there is an emergence of instinct or the instinctual mind if it has to be identified as such.
What qualify as a human mind [as evident] is when the person is self-aware at around 18 months and continue to develop and changes with age.
As you can see, the human mind emerges with changes in the neural connectivity within the brain of the person, the whole person, and its environment.

There is no mind which is an entity which came about to occupy the human person at any certain point in time.
What you are showing is brain activity rather than the emergence of consciousness. Again, consciousness cannot be measured.
Point is when a person is conscious in its various states, that is represented by the brain activities that can be captured in an fMRI image.

Note the Human Connectome Project;
http://www.humanconnectomeproject.org/
the aim is to map all the neural connectivity in the human brain.
This project will enable scientist to relate brain activity to the various states of consciousness and basic state of consciousness in contrast to being brain dead.

At present scientists are able to represent various states of consciousness on a crude basis using fMRI images, e.g. waking, waking and doing various activities, thinking, sleep consciousness, drunk consciousness, altered states of consciousness, etc.

Note when one feel sexy and have hard-on, it is a "state of mind" that is represented by the whole person's brain, heart, whole body, hard-dick, flow of hormones, etc. the contributing environment, etc. The state of mind is not just brain activities.

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bahman
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Re: The duty of the brain is to provide inputs to the mind

Post by bahman » Sat Feb 22, 2020 12:03 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 8:05 am
bahman wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 7:54 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 5:42 am

Note there is no change in the number of molecules of H2O.

There are also changes in the brain neurons with the emergence of the mind and its various states. Logically, these changes are also measurable.
Note this example;

Image

Note prior to conception there is no specific mind in the sperm or ovum.
There is also no human mind [as defined] during conception.
At a certain point after conception, there is an emergence of instinct or the instinctual mind if it has to be identified as such.
What qualify as a human mind [as evident] is when the person is self-aware at around 18 months and continue to develop and changes with age.
As you can see, the human mind emerges with changes in the neural connectivity within the brain of the person, the whole person, and its environment.

There is no mind which is an entity which came about to occupy the human person at any certain point in time.
What you are showing is brain activity rather than the emergence of consciousness. Again, consciousness cannot be measured.
Point is when a person is conscious in its various states, that is represented by the brain activities that can be captured in an fMRI image.

Note the Human Connectome Project;
http://www.humanconnectomeproject.org/
the aim is to map all the neural connectivity in the human brain.
This project will enable scientist to relate brain activity to the various states of consciousness and basic state of consciousness in contrast to being brain dead.

At present scientists are able to represent various states of consciousness on a crude basis using fMRI images, e.g. waking, waking and doing various activities, thinking, sleep consciousness, drunk consciousness, altered states of consciousness, etc.

Note when one feel sexy and have hard-on, it is a "state of mind" that is represented by the whole person's brain, heart, whole body, hard-dick, flow of hormones, etc. the contributing environment, etc. The state of mind is not just brain activities.
Again, for that, you need the person's response. That is true since you need to make a correlation between the person's consciousness and brain activity. The person can, however, be conscious but not able to respond. So I am afraid that your argument doesn't follow.

Moreover, you need to debunk another alternative scenario in which the brain provides input to the mind. Again, no brain activity, no input for the mind and no experience.

jayjacobus
Posts: 950
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Re: The duty of the brain is to provide inputs to the mind

Post by jayjacobus » Sat Feb 22, 2020 5:31 pm

bahman wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:32 pm
The duty of the brain is to provide inputs to the mind. We experience everything. Experience, however, is codded differently for each mind.
You are correct, sir.

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