How can we defeat "us vs. them" mentality?

[Nick_A]

Age

I will tell 'you', in case 'you' are still not yet FULLY aware; Living in and with this obviously completely wrong and stupid BELIEFS IS living upside down in the fallen human condition. Living in and with lies and dishonest IS living upside down in the fallen human condition.

And, HOW to right "yourselves" so that you can all live in the proper human way is to just STOP lying to "yourselves", and to just STOP being dishonest, with "yourselves", which just means BE Honest, ALWAYS, which, when done, it is found to be the actual and REAL KEY to unlocking ALL of Life's (so called) "mysteries".

I can NOT prove this to 'you'. Only 'you' can verify or falsify the Truth or NOT of this.

Why blindly believe? Why not verify what human being on earth actually is? This is where we disagree. We cannot solve the problem of the fallen human condition by saying what we should do but rather by consciously verifying that we are a plurality living in contradiction. We can do this by making the conscious efforts to "Know Thyself" or to have the experience of ourselves. Don't believe it; verify it. Making efforts to "know thyself rather than imagining oneself requires the need, will, and courage to do so. Very few have it.

When we can come to admit we are the "wretched man" then it becomes unnecessary to defend our defense mechanisms so we can open to help from above. If you insist on proclaiming that you are God you deny yourself the ability to "know thyself," to have the experience of the plurality of the human condition which allows conscious help from above.

Consider Plato's Chariot analogy. The white horse is what it should be. It is the dark horse that has become corrupt. Why create all sorts of expressions of idolatry which only serve to worsen the effects of the fallen human condition including the idea that "I am God"? The question becomes how to cure the sick dark horse. It begins with the conscious efforts to "know thyself." But how many even know what it means. Since we are as we are, everything is as it is. Healing the human condition isn't possible by analysis. It requires the experience of what we are. Admitting that we lie to ourselves and cannot help it is part of the beginning. No condemnation is required; just the ability to open to the experience. It is a necessary part of self knowledge necessary for a person to one again become right side up.

[Age]

Age

I will tell 'you', in case 'you' are still not yet FULLY aware; Living in and with this obviously completely wrong and stupid BELIEFS IS living upside down in the fallen human condition. Living in and with lies and dishonest IS living upside down in the fallen human condition.

And, HOW to right "yourselves" so that you can all live in the proper human way is to just STOP lying to "yourselves", and to just STOP being dishonest, with "yourselves", which just means BE Honest, ALWAYS, which, when done, it is found to be the actual and REAL KEY to unlocking ALL of Life's (so called) "mysteries".

I can NOT prove this to 'you'. Only 'you' can verify or falsify the Truth or NOT of this.

Why blindly believe?

Are you asking me what "I blindly believe", or asking "yourself"?

I seriously hope you are NOT asking me, because if you are, then I will say it once more. I nether believe nor disbelieve any thing (other than in thy True Self's ability).

Now please just accept that as, I do NOT believe any thing, let alone blindly believe any thing.

I hope this is the last time I have to explain this to you.

Why not verify what human being on earth actually is? This is where we disagree.

How do you KNOW that this is where we disagree?

If I have to tell you what human being on earth actually is, which by the way I have already done previously in this forum, then that would mean that you do NOT know what human being on earth actually is to me, which then triggers me to ask you the clarifying question, How do you KNOW that this is where we disagree?

Also, what do you actually mean by asking me, "Why not verify what human being on earth actually is?" The reason why I have not verified this IS, BECAUSE NO ONE asked me to previously.

I could say, Why not verify what animal on earth actually is? but I would NOT do that because of the absolutely stupidity and ridiculousness to ask you why you have not yet done some thing, which was obviously NEVER asked for before.

To me, what a human being (on or off earth) is, is a human body with a being, or person, inside of it.

We cannot solve the problem of the fallen human condition by saying what we should do but rather by consciously verifying that we are a plurality living in contradiction.

I seriously want to give up. We cannot solve ANY problem until what the problem itself is actually known.

You have yet to tell me what the "fallen human condition" IS, as well as what the "human condition" itself IS. So, I have absolutely NO idea what problem there is here.

Also, define and verify what this "plurality living in contradiction" actually is and means.

We can do this by making the conscious efforts to "Know Thyself" or to have the experience of ourselves.

Are you seriously BLIND or just IGNORE what I write? I ALREADY KNOW thy Self.

End of story. Finished, Understood?

Don't believe it; verify it. Making efforts to "know thyself rather than imagining oneself requires the need, will, and courage to do so. Very few have it.

Are you under some sort of illusion that 'I' do NOT already KNOW thy Self?

You obviously have not got there yet, so for you to imagine that I have NOT, is a very short sighted view of things.

When we can come to admit we are the "wretched man" then it becomes unnecessary to defend our defense mechanisms so we can open to help from above. If you insist on proclaiming that you are God you deny yourself the ability to "know thyself," to have the experience of the plurality of the human condition which allows conscious help from above.

Either you are BLIND or you Truly do IGNORE the actual words that I say and write. I have NEVER EVER said 'you' or 'i' am God. Understood?

Consider Plato's Chariot analogy. The white horse is what it should be. It is the dark horse that has become corrupt. Why create all sorts of expressions of idolatry which only serve to worsen the effects of the fallen human condition including the idea that "I am God"?

What do you want me to say?

Tell me what to say, then will you be happy?

The question becomes how to cure the sick dark horse.

Will you please stop talking about and referring to horses. If the Truth be known I have absolutely NO idea what you are actually trying to refer to.

You ask me, Why not verify what the human being on earth actually is? I will ask you, What are you talking about when you talk about white or black horses?

So, Why not verify what the horse on earth actually is?

It begins with the conscious efforts to "know thyself." But how many even know what it means. Since we are as we are, everything is as it is. Healing the human condition isn't possible by analysis. It requires the experience of what we are. Admitting that we lie to ourselves and cannot help it is part of the beginning.

But you human beings can help from lying. Just saying you cannot help it, is just another lie, and another excuse, and another "justification", to just keep lying.

By the way are you under some sort of illusion that i have NOT already gone through all the discovering, learning, and understanding processes involved in FULLY understanding of and what the 'human being' itself, IS, before I came to the realization and KNOWING of what thy True Self IS after?

No condemnation is required; just the ability to open to the experience. It is a necessary part of self knowledge necessary for a person to one again become right side up.

And here it is I who has been saying ALL ALONG to OPEN UP. I have also ALREADY EXPLAINED exactly HOW to OPEN one's self up, to the Truth of things.

What I have ALREADY EXPLAINED SHOWS HOW to become what you call 'right side up'.

But for reasons only I KNOW, you will NOT even LOOK AT and CONSIDER this. This is because 'you' BELIEVE you KNOW the true, right, and correct. But obviously and sadly you have to still make conscious EFFORTS to just get to where you are now, which in all Honesty is WHERE?

[Nick_A]

Age

Are you under some sort of illusion that 'I' do NOT already KNOW thy Self?

The fact that you think you do is proof that you don't "know thyself"

“Life is a dream. ‘Tis waking that kills us,” Virginia Woolf wrote in Orlando

Awakening to self knowledge kills the illusions we live under and create the majority of our lives. They don't want to die

[Age]

Age

Are you under some sort of illusion that 'I' do NOT already KNOW thy Self?

The fact that you think you do is proof that you don't "know thyself"

LOL but I do NOT think I do.

You really need to take far more care when you read my words, that is; only if you Truly do want to understand what I am actually saying and meaning.

But if you just prefer to keep doing what you have here so far, that is; just believe what you are saying is actually true, right, and correct, then just keep doing what you have been hitherto.

Also, if, for example, I said, Are you under some sort of illusion that 'I' do NOT already KNOW what today is?, then would you also write some thing like; The fact that you think you do is PROOF that you don't "know what today is"?

What are you actually basing your current knowledge, of what I KNOW or do NOT know, on exactly?

“Life is a dream. ‘Tis waking that kills us,” Virginia Woolf wrote in Orlando

Awakening to self knowledge kills the illusions we live under and create the majority of our lives. They don't want to die

Honestly, I do not know what you are 'trying to' get at here, or get at in a lot of what you write.

To me, you appear to contradict "yourself" a lot.

Do 'you' even know who 'you' are, and what 'you' are doing?

If yes, then who are 'you' and what are 'you' doing?

[surreptitious57]

Yes I do think I know who I am and what I am doing here and I think the answers to that are this
I am someone who is passing through this state of existence and into another state of existence
I am someone who is passing from this temporary life state and into the permanent death state

[Age]

Yes I do think I know who I am and what I am doing here and I think the answers to that are this
I am someone who is passing through this state of existence and into another state of existence
I am someone who is passing from this temporary life state and into the permanent death state

Okay, so if 'I' asked 'you' the question, Who am 'I'?, your response from a very individual and separate point of view would be 'I' am someone, correct?

If no, then what would be your response?

[surreptitious57]

Yes I am someone who exists as an individual in this physical body in this temporary existence
And when this body eventually dies then I will pass into the permanent state of non existence

[Age]

Yes I am someone who exists as an individual in this physical body in this temporary existence
And when this body eventually dies then I will pass into the permanent state of non existence

Spoken from a truly typical individual adult human being, that is; ONLY LOOKING FROM its own "self", and ONLY THINKING ABOUT its own "self" ONLY.

There is FAR MORE to Life, and living, than to just 'you', human beings collectively, let alone to just 'you', individually.

Once 'you' start to LOOK FROM more than just 'you', then that is when 'you' can at least start SEEING a bigger picture or more wider and larger scale of Truth and of things.

Contrary to popular belief, the Universe, and Life, does NOT revolve 'you', individual human beings.

[Belinda]

Nick_A wrote:

It begins with the conscious efforts to "know thyself." But how many even know what it means. Since we are as we are, everything is as it is. Healing the human condition isn't possible by analysis. It requires the experience of what we are. Admitting that we lie to ourselves and cannot help it is part of the beginning. No condemnation is required; just the ability to open to the experience. It is a necessary part of self knowledge necessary for a person to one again become right side up.

Yes, However it would be idolatry of myself if I were ever to believe I am permanently in the right.

[Belinda]

Nick_A wrote:

It begins with the conscious efforts to "know thyself." But how many even know what it means. Since we are as we are, everything is as it is. Healing the human condition isn't possible by analysis. It requires the experience of what we are. Admitting that we lie to ourselves and cannot help it is part of the beginning. No condemnation is required; just the ability to open to the experience. It is a necessary part of self knowledge necessary for a person to one again become right side up.

Yes, However I would idolise myself if I were ever to believe I am permanently in the right.
Therefore I am never sure I am in the right. I can only do my best. It's wrong too to idolise any authority that claims to be absolutely right . Uncertainty is the handmaid of reason.

[surreptitious57]

There is more to existence than just me individually or the human species collectively regardless of what some may believe
In fact the Universe does not revolve around us at all because we are just totally insignificant in the grand scheme of things

[Nick_A]

Nick_A wrote:

It begins with the conscious efforts to "know thyself." But how many even know what it means. Since we are as we are, everything is as it is. Healing the human condition isn't possible by analysis. It requires the experience of what we are. Admitting that we lie to ourselves and cannot help it is part of the beginning. No condemnation is required; just the ability to open to the experience. It is a necessary part of self knowledge necessary for a person to one again become right side up.

Yes, However I would idolise myself if I were ever to believe I am permanently in the right.
Therefore I am never sure I am in the right. I can only do my best. It's wrong too to idolise any authority that claims to be absolutely right . Uncertainty is the handmaid of reason.

It isn't a matter of being right or wrong but of the courage, will, and need. to experience conscious verification. I am invited to impartially experience without judgment if I am the wretched man. I have verified that I am. I have experienced the struggle Paul describes between my two natures. It is neither right or wrong but just the human condition anyone can verify.


Romans 7

21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature[d] a slave to the law of sin.

I have been most surprised by the intensity with which it is denied. What good are statements of denial by those afraid to "know thyself" and live by beliefs in right or wrong?

[Systematic]

nuclear weapons and mutually assured destruction...

-Imp

I think you get 72 virgins for nuking the Earth.

[Lacewing]

What good are statements of denial by those afraid to "know thyself" and live by beliefs in right or wrong?

Perhaps as good as the statements by those who claim to know themselves and to have beliefs of right and wrong?

Surely, many who claim to "know themselves" are in denial -- and many who claim to know right from wrong are limited by their views.

How can any person's perspectives encompass all that is possible in regard to themselves or anyone/anything else?

[Impenitent]

nuclear weapons and mutually assured destruction...

-Imp

I think you get 72 virgins for nuking the Earth.

and on the 73rd day of eternity?

-Imp