Exploring The Human Conscious Light Screen

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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uwot
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Re: Exploring The Human Conscious Light Screen

Post by uwot » Wed Jan 01, 2020 5:55 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 5:17 pm
I would say also: Funny thing the Conscious Mind.
And I would agree.

commonsense
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Re: Exploring The Human Conscious Light Screen

Post by commonsense » Wed Jan 01, 2020 5:55 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 4:16 pm
Do you actually sense that the Conscious Light Noise that you see with your eyes closed is a long distance away from you?

That would be the first time anyone has reported that. In any case yes it is a fascinating problem.
Synesthesia, although rare, has occurred already.

SteveKlinko
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Re: Exploring The Human Conscious Light Screen

Post by SteveKlinko » Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:08 pm

commonsense wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 5:55 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 4:16 pm
Do you actually sense that the Conscious Light Noise that you see with your eyes closed is a long distance away from you?

That would be the first time anyone has reported that. In any case yes it is a fascinating problem.
Synesthesia, although rare, has occurred already.
Synesthesia is when two different Sense Perceptions are mixed up, like in Seeing Sound or Hearing Light. How does that have anything to do with what we are talking about?.

commonsense
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Re: Exploring The Human Conscious Light Screen

Post by commonsense » Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:38 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:08 pm
commonsense wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 5:55 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 4:16 pm
Do you actually sense that the Conscious Light Noise that you see with your eyes closed is a long distance away from you?

That would be the first time anyone has reported that. In any case yes it is a fascinating problem.
Synesthesia, although rare, has occurred already.
Synesthesia is when two different Sense Perceptions are mixed up, like in Seeing Sound or Hearing Light. How does that have anything to do with what we are talking about?.
I thought that if sound is detected by the eyes, it is a case of synesthesia even if vision also takes place in the eyes. My mistake.

Skepdick
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Re: Exploring The Human Conscious Light Screen

Post by Skepdick » Fri Jan 03, 2020 8:32 am

commonsense wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:38 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:08 pm
commonsense wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 5:55 pm


Synesthesia, although rare, has occurred already.
Synesthesia is when two different Sense Perceptions are mixed up, like in Seeing Sound or Hearing Light. How does that have anything to do with what we are talking about?.
I thought that if sound is detected by the eyes, it is a case of synesthesia even if vision also takes place in the eyes. My mistake.
Semantics. Both sound and light are waves.

Some light waves are detected by sight (visible spectrum), some light waves are detected by touch (infrared spectrum).

Using technology we can remap any wave into the visible spectrum such that it can be perceived by sight.

uwot
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Re: Exploring The Human Conscious Light Screen

Post by uwot » Fri Jan 03, 2020 1:45 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 8:32 am
Both sound and light are waves.
Well, sound waves are mechanical and require a material medium. In spite of Einstein's special theory of relativity and it's rejection of the luminiferous aether, the jury is still out on whether light requires a medium.
Skepdick wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 8:32 am
Some light waves are detected by sight (visible spectrum), some light waves are detected by touch (infrared spectrum).

Using technology we can remap any wave into the visible spectrum such that it can be perceived by sight.
If by "remap" you mean convert, then yeah, but to my knowledge, you can't squeeze or stretch sound waves and make them light waves.

SteveKlinko
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Re: Exploring The Human Conscious Light Screen

Post by SteveKlinko » Fri Jan 03, 2020 3:39 pm

commonsense wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:38 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:08 pm
commonsense wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 5:55 pm


Synesthesia, although rare, has occurred already.
Synesthesia is when two different Sense Perceptions are mixed up, like in Seeing Sound or Hearing Light. How does that have anything to do with what we are talking about?.
I thought that if sound is detected by the eyes, it is a case of synesthesia even if vision also takes place in the eyes. My mistake.
Sound cannot be detected by the eyes. But Light that is detected by the Eyes can produce an Experience of Sound. Light cannot be detected by the Ears. But Sound that is detected by the Ears can produce a Light Experience.

commonsense
Posts: 2064
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:38 pm

Re: Exploring The Human Conscious Light Screen

Post by commonsense » Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:08 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 3:39 pm
commonsense wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:38 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:08 pm

Synesthesia is when two different Sense Perceptions are mixed up, like in Seeing Sound or Hearing Light. How does that have anything to do with what we are talking about?.
I thought that if sound is detected by the eyes, it is a case of synesthesia even if vision also takes place in the eyes. My mistake.
Sound cannot be detected by the eyes. But Light that is detected by the Eyes can produce an Experience of Sound. Light cannot be detected by the Ears. But Sound that is detected by the Ears can produce a Light Experience.
Thanks for this info!

Skepdick
Posts: 4310
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: Exploring The Human Conscious Light Screen

Post by Skepdick » Sun Jan 05, 2020 4:00 pm

uwot wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 1:45 pm
Well, sound waves are mechanical and require a material medium. In spite of Einstein's special theory of relativity and it's rejection of the luminiferous aether, the jury is still out on whether light requires a medium.
Perhaps the jury is out into how to objectively categorise stuff into "mediums" and "non-mediums"?

Einstein rejected the concept of an ether and replaced it with the concept of space. At the other end of the spectrum - quantum fields.

Different language - same implication.

Is space a medium? Are quantum fields mediums? Do holes exist? Flip a coin.
uwot wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 1:45 pm
If by "remap" you mean convert, then yeah, but to my knowledge, you can't squeeze or stretch sound waves and make them light waves.
You can convert the energy from the one into the energy of the other: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonoluminescence

From the purview of information theory (which is isomorphic to energy via Landauers's principle) you could say that converting one kind of wave into another is equivalent to encoding/decoding/transcoding.

Is all signal processing. Translation from one language into another.

uwot
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Re: Exploring The Human Conscious Light Screen

Post by uwot » Sun Jan 05, 2020 4:28 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 4:00 pm
uwot wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 1:45 pm
Well, sound waves are mechanical and require a material medium. In spite of Einstein's special theory of relativity and it's rejection of the luminiferous aether, the jury is still out on whether light requires a medium.
Perhaps the jury is out into how to objectively categorise stuff into "mediums" and "non-mediums"?
Well, there's always those that can't tell the difference.
Skepdick wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 4:00 pm
Einstein rejected the concept of an ether and replaced it with the concept of space.
Not really. He discarded a static luminiferous aether for the context of special relativity, and introduced the concept of spacetime, which he sometimes called a relativistic aether in the context of general relativity.
Skepdick wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 4:00 pm
At the other end of the spectrum - quantum fields.
In Einstein's heyday, the only forces known to science were gravity and electromagnetism. As far as Einstein understood at the time, fundamental particles were just condensations in the electromagnetic field.
Skepdick wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 4:00 pm
Different language - same implication.

Is space a medium? Are quantum fields mediums? Do holes exist? Flip a coin.
Yes. Yes and without committing myself to any semantic jiggery-pokery, yes.
Skepdick wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 4:00 pm
uwot wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 1:45 pm
If by "remap" you mean convert, then yeah, but to my knowledge, you can't squeeze or stretch sound waves and make them light waves.
You can convert the energy from the one into the energy of the other:
Fine; so you mean convert.
Skepdick wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 4:00 pm
Is all signal processing. Translation from one language into another.
Sure. What's new?

Skepdick
Posts: 4310
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: Exploring The Human Conscious Light Screen

Post by Skepdick » Sun Jan 05, 2020 5:30 pm

uwot wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 4:28 pm
Well, there's always those that can't tell the difference.
Probably because the difference is conceptual, not demonstrable? A distinction without a difference, if you will.
uwot wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 4:28 pm
Not really. He discarded a static luminiferous aether for the context of special relativity, and introduced the concept of spacetime, which he sometimes called a relativistic aether in the context of general relativity.
Potato, potatoh.

for X in {static luminiferous aether; spacetime, relativistic aether} (in any and all context): is X a medium or not?
uwot wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 4:28 pm
Yes. Yes and without committing myself to any semantic jiggery-pokery, yes.
You seem to have made up your mind even if the jury hasn't. Did you flip a coin like the rest of us, or do you have a better method?
uwot wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 4:28 pm
Sure. What's new?
I didn't realise neomania was your infliction...

uwot
Posts: 4877
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:21 am

Re: Exploring The Human Conscious Light Screen

Post by uwot » Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:33 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 5:30 pm
uwot wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 4:28 pm
Well, there's always those that can't tell the difference.
Probably because the difference is conceptual, not demonstrable? A distinction without a difference, if you will.
Nah, it's demonstrable. That's what particle accelerators do.
Skepdick wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 5:30 pm
uwot wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 4:28 pm
Not really. He discarded a static luminiferous aether for the context of special relativity, and introduced the concept of spacetime, which he sometimes called a relativistic aether in the context of general relativity.
Potato, potatoh.

for X in {static luminiferous aether; spacetime, relativistic aether} (in any and all context): is X a medium or not?
No. Maybe. Maybe.
Skepdick wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 5:30 pm
uwot wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 4:28 pm
Yes. Yes and without committing myself to any semantic jiggery-pokery, yes.
You seem to have made up your mind even if the jury hasn't. Did you flip a coin like the rest of us, or do you have a better method?
Evidence.
Skepdick wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 5:30 pm
uwot wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 4:28 pm
Sure. What's new?
I didn't realise neomania was your infliction...
I presume you mean affliction, or at least what I mean by affliction, but how you use words is entirely up to you. But there ya go again; do you really believe that I am inflicted/afflicted by neomania? I already admitted to some old fashioned ideas.

Skepdick
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Re: Exploring The Human Conscious Light Screen

Post by Skepdick » Sun Jan 05, 2020 7:18 pm

uwot wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:33 pm
Nah, it's demonstrable. That's what particle accelerators do.
....
No. Maybe. Maybe.
....
Evidence.
If "that's what particle accelerators do", then what kind of evidence from particle accelerators will turn your "maybe" into "yes"?
uwot wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:33 pm
do you really believe that I am inflicted/afflicted by neomania? I already admitted to some old fashioned ideas.
Old-fashioned folk can't pursue novelty? You asked "What's new?". Your question caused uncertainty in my mind: why do you expect novelty?

And if you don't expect novelty, why ask the question?

uwot
Posts: 4877
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:21 am

Re: Exploring The Human Conscious Light Screen

Post by uwot » Sun Jan 05, 2020 8:07 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 7:18 pm
uwot wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:33 pm
Nah, it's demonstrable. That's what particle accelerators do.
....
No. Maybe. Maybe.
....
Evidence.
If "that's what particle accelerators do", then what kind of evidence from particle accelerators will turn your "maybe" into "yes"?
Well, the Higgs Boson is the most recent example, but pretty much any fundamental particle you care to shake a stick at. Although yup, I concede, there are alternative interpretations - that's underdeterminism for you.
Skepdick wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 7:18 pm
uwot wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:33 pm
do you really believe that I am inflicted/afflicted by neomania? I already admitted to some old fashioned ideas.
Old-fashioned folk can't pursue novelty? You asked "What's new?". Your question caused uncertainty in my mind: why do you expect novelty?

And if you don't expect novelty, why ask the question?
To be frank Skepdick, I don't expect novelty from you.

Skepdick
Posts: 4310
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: Exploring The Human Conscious Light Screen

Post by Skepdick » Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:23 pm

uwot wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 8:07 pm
Well, the Higgs Boson is the most recent example, but pretty much any fundamental particle you care to shake a stick at. Although yup, I concede, there are alternative interpretations - that's underdeterminism for you.
OK, so lets avoid the talk of "interpretations" then... I grant you ontological carte blanche. Put on your "direct realism" hat. What evidence would sway your "maybe" into a "yes"? What evidence would convince you that spacetime is a medium?

If you can't answer that, I am simply going to point out that you are still stuck with a two-valued (Boolean) semantic.

Your "No" means "No". But your "Maybe" is my "Yes". You are playing the very "semantic jiggery-pokery" you are trying to avoid
uwot wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 8:07 pm
To be frank Skepdick, I don't expect novelty from you.
That's a 2nd datapoint now causing me to question the intent behind your question... If you don't expect novelty from me, why ask "What's new?"

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