Exploring The Human Conscious Light Screen

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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SteveKlinko
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Exploring The Human Conscious Light Screen

Post by SteveKlinko » Wed Dec 25, 2019 5:07 pm

We do not See things in the external World, but rather we Detect things by using internal Conscious processes that we are born with. We all have a personal Conscious Light Screen (CLS) that we use to detect what is happening in the external World. All the Conscious Light of your Visual Experience is painted onto that Screen. If we try to describe where this CLS is located it seems to be embedded in the front of our faces in some way. The CLS is vaguely horizontally rectangular with ambiguous edges that are hard to locate exactly. The screen seems to just fade into nonexistence at the borders. But wherever you look, that screen is there showing you with Conscious Light what is in the scene you are looking at.

To understand this better close your eyes and observe what you See. At first there may be various After Images that represent remnants of what you were looking at, but eventually these fade away. What is left is not totally black. Note that you might have to put your hand over your eyes if you are in a bright place in order to cut off external Light from leaking through your eyelids. Most people will notice a background that has a vague grainy noise almost like the video snow noise that used to appear on old analog TVs. Let's call this Conscious Light Noise (CLN). It is due to random Retinal and Cortical firings. CLN really is the background noise in your Visual detection system. Most people easily perceive that this CLN, and possible After Images, are close to the front of their faces. If you move your head around you will See the CLN, and After Images, move around with your head to keep them in front of your face. If you move your eyes up, down, left, or right, the CLN and After Images will seem to be displaced a little in those directions but will still basically be located in front of your face. It is interesting to note that After Images will always look close even if the scene element that caused the After Image is far away. Now you know where your CLS is located.

When you open your eyes the scene that you are looking at is painted onto your CLS and it is harder to perceive that the Conscious Light making up the image is still close to your face. Your Visual system tries to give you the illusion that there are things that are far away and things that are close. If you look through only one eye the depth illusion is less pronounced. But the Conscious Light that the scene is painted with is actually still located close to your face and is at the same distance as the CLN. The illusion of distance is absolutely necessary for moving around in the World.

It should be mentioned that the things and scenes you See while Dreaming are painted onto your CLS. If you try to imagine some object, you will see a grainy, hazy, version of that object painted onto your CLS. If you rub your eyes, the Lights that you might See are painted onto your CLS.

The CLS is a general purpose Visual Display Device for all Conscious beings, whether Human or Animal. The Light that is painted onto your CLS is your Light. We walk around all day long looking at our CLSs which are embedded in the front of our faces. We cannot See the CLSs of other people but if we could it would be as if everyone was wearing Virtual Reality goggles. But instead of goggles it would be Conscious Light Screens. We think we are Seeing the external World directly but we (our Conscious Minds) are always just looking (in some Conscious way) at our own CLSs.

Dimebag
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Re: Exploring The Human Conscious Light Screen

Post by Dimebag » Wed Dec 25, 2019 11:17 pm

Hey Steve,

The one thing I didn’t see you mention here is that, that conscious light screen IS our visual experience. The way you describe this can sometimes come across like you are trying to say there is another thing INSIDE our heads viewing the screen, when in reality, there is no need for a separate viewer of the screen, the screen is the viewed without a viewer.

Obviously there is an internal viewer, being awareness, as we know we can be looking directly at something without really seeing it, but this is not like an eye, or a homunculous, but more like a multiplexed channel selection or mixing unit which handles the many different possible conscious experiences, and narrows it down to one single one. So it might seem like there is some ephemeral entity inside us which is the viewer of all conscious experiences, but this is also a construction, to help us feel like a whole, integrated entity, and to have self concern AS that entity, rather than a collection of unintegrated experiences with no central uniting goal or drive for survival.

SteveKlinko
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Re: Exploring The Human Conscious Light Screen

Post by SteveKlinko » Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:41 pm

Dimebag wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2019 11:17 pm
Hey Steve,

The one thing I didn’t see you mention here is that, that conscious light screen IS our visual experience. The way you describe this can sometimes come across like you are trying to say there is another thing INSIDE our heads viewing the screen, when in reality, there is no need for a separate viewer of the screen, the screen is the viewed without a viewer.

Obviously there is an internal viewer, being awareness, as we know we can be looking directly at something without really seeing it, but this is not like an eye, or a homunculous, but more like a multiplexed channel selection or mixing unit which handles the many different possible conscious experiences, and narrows it down to one single one. So it might seem like there is some ephemeral entity inside us which is the viewer of all conscious experiences, but this is also a construction, to help us feel like a whole, integrated entity, and to have self concern AS that entity, rather than a collection of unintegrated experiences with no central uniting goal or drive for survival.
But to say it is our Visual Experience implies that there is an Observer also. I think this question of how to reconcile the Observer and the Observed is still one of the unknowns of Consciousness. I just like to point out the Conscious Light Screen because it can get people to think in different ways about how we Visually Experience the World. We are more like Androids looking at an internal Display than we realize.

Dimebag
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Re: Exploring The Human Conscious Light Screen

Post by Dimebag » Fri Dec 27, 2019 11:34 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:41 pm
Dimebag wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2019 11:17 pm
Hey Steve,

The one thing I didn’t see you mention here is that, that conscious light screen IS our visual experience. The way you describe this can sometimes come across like you are trying to say there is another thing INSIDE our heads viewing the screen, when in reality, there is no need for a separate viewer of the screen, the screen is the viewed without a viewer.

Obviously there is an internal viewer, being awareness, as we know we can be looking directly at something without really seeing it, but this is not like an eye, or a homunculous, but more like a multiplexed channel selection or mixing unit which handles the many different possible conscious experiences, and narrows it down to one single one. So it might seem like there is some ephemeral entity inside us which is the viewer of all conscious experiences, but this is also a construction, to help us feel like a whole, integrated entity, and to have self concern AS that entity, rather than a collection of unintegrated experiences with no central uniting goal or drive for survival.
But to say it is our Visual Experience implies that there is an Observer also. I think this question of how to reconcile the Observer and the Observed is still one of the unknowns of Consciousness. I just like to point out the Conscious Light Screen because it can get people to think in different ways about how we Visually Experience the World. We are more like Androids looking at an internal Display than we realize.
I think there are several unknown factors, to do with the observer and identification or self modelling which we don’t quite understand, which makes it difficult to think about. I think the observer can attach to objects of perception, or become absorbed by them depending on the situation, so that there is no separation between the two, in which case the observer loses perspective and is unable to see “objectively” and is then along for the ride of automatic behaviour. But sometimes the observer can remain separate from the objects of perception, which allows it to treat those perceptions as objects to be viewed from an external perspective, which means it is not engaged in automatic behaviour associated with the object.

To me the observer is a space or substrate in which perceptions appear, which contains potential for action, or thought. When the observer remains separate from perception, action and thought are separated from perceptions, by a bubble or cushion of “space”, so they are contained or held in a sense. When perception connects to action automatically it bypasses awareness, or awareness is the briefest of moments so as to go unnoticed.

The conscious light screen you describe is obviously one of the perceptions that remains fairly constant to us, though it’s contents change always, it is always accessible to our awareness. It is the primary sense through which our inner world is constructed, which gives it primary importance to our understanding of our conscious reality. The analogy you make to light is maybe not quite accurate, as the entire basis of our perception of light is through our visual perception, so more accurate might be to say, whatever our visual perception of colour is, that is what light is represented in. Maybe a more accurate name might be, the conscious colour screen.

SteveKlinko
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Re: Exploring The Human Conscious Light Screen

Post by SteveKlinko » Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:02 pm

Dimebag wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 11:34 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:41 pm
Dimebag wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2019 11:17 pm
Hey Steve,

The one thing I didn’t see you mention here is that, that conscious light screen IS our visual experience. The way you describe this can sometimes come across like you are trying to say there is another thing INSIDE our heads viewing the screen, when in reality, there is no need for a separate viewer of the screen, the screen is the viewed without a viewer.

Obviously there is an internal viewer, being awareness, as we know we can be looking directly at something without really seeing it, but this is not like an eye, or a homunculous, but more like a multiplexed channel selection or mixing unit which handles the many different possible conscious experiences, and narrows it down to one single one. So it might seem like there is some ephemeral entity inside us which is the viewer of all conscious experiences, but this is also a construction, to help us feel like a whole, integrated entity, and to have self concern AS that entity, rather than a collection of unintegrated experiences with no central uniting goal or drive for survival.
But to say it is our Visual Experience implies that there is an Observer also. I think this question of how to reconcile the Observer and the Observed is still one of the unknowns of Consciousness. I just like to point out the Conscious Light Screen because it can get people to think in different ways about how we Visually Experience the World. We are more like Androids looking at an internal Display than we realize.
I think there are several unknown factors, to do with the observer and identification or self modelling which we don’t quite understand, which makes it difficult to think about. I think the observer can attach to objects of perception, or become absorbed by them depending on the situation, so that there is no separation between the two, in which case the observer loses perspective and is unable to see “objectively” and is then along for the ride of automatic behaviour. But sometimes the observer can remain separate from the objects of perception, which allows it to treat those perceptions as objects to be viewed from an external perspective, which means it is not engaged in automatic behaviour associated with the object.

To me the observer is a space or substrate in which perceptions appear, which contains potential for action, or thought. When the observer remains separate from perception, action and thought are separated from perceptions, by a bubble or cushion of “space”, so they are contained or held in a sense. When perception connects to action automatically it bypasses awareness, or awareness is the briefest of moments so as to go unnoticed.

The conscious light screen you describe is obviously one of the perceptions that remains fairly constant to us, though it’s contents change always, it is always accessible to our awareness. It is the primary sense through which our inner world is constructed, which gives it primary importance to our understanding of our conscious reality. The analogy you make to light is maybe not quite accurate, as the entire basis of our perception of light is through our visual perception, so more accurate might be to say, whatever our visual perception of colour is, that is what light is represented in. Maybe a more accurate name might be, the conscious colour screen.
Thank You for the very Thought filled reply. Inspiring people to Think has always been a goal for my posts.

Calling it the Conscious Color Screen would be good but since Conscious Light is made out of all the Colors, it's really the same thing. One of the main things I try to make people aware of is the difference between Physical Light and Conscious Light. Newcomers to the study of Mind (and the Direct Realists) think they are seeing the Physical Light and I want to show them that they are actually Seeing something different than what they have always thought. We have always only Seen our own Internal Conscious Light (the thing on the Screen) and have never seen Physical Light (Electromagnetic Phenomenon). Conscious Light is the only Light we know. So the Conscious light is not an Analogy, but rather it the actual thing we See.

uwot
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Re: Exploring The Human Conscious Light Screen

Post by uwot » Sat Dec 28, 2019 3:54 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2019 5:07 pm
We do not See things in the external World, but rather we Detect things by using internal Conscious processes that we are born with.
Fair enough, you are incorporating Plato's analogy of the cave, Locke's veil of perception, Kant's distinction between nomenon and phenomena, just for starters, into your own narrative with it's own terminology. It's what philosophers do, the trick is to come up with an original idea.

SteveKlinko
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Re: Exploring The Human Conscious Light Screen

Post by SteveKlinko » Sun Dec 29, 2019 2:58 pm

uwot wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 3:54 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2019 5:07 pm
We do not See things in the external World, but rather we Detect things by using internal Conscious processes that we are born with.
Fair enough, you are incorporating Plato's analogy of the cave, Locke's veil of perception, Kant's distinction between nomenon and phenomena, just for starters, into your own narrative with it's own terminology. It's what philosophers do, the trick is to come up with an original idea.
Yes I try to give some reference point to argue from. But you are then missing the point of the rest of the post if that is all you can take from it.

uwot
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Re: Exploring The Human Conscious Light Screen

Post by uwot » Sun Dec 29, 2019 4:01 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 2:58 pm
Yes I try to give some reference point to argue from. But you are then missing the point of the rest of the post if that is all you can take from it.
Well, I think you are arguing that we all have our own private perceptions, from which we construct our individual world models to which we respond in our own unique way. Fundamentally that is the theory dependence of observation espoused by Kuhn, Feyerabend and arguably Duhem, but if I have missed something, by all means fill me in.

SteveKlinko
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Re: Exploring The Human Conscious Light Screen

Post by SteveKlinko » Sun Dec 29, 2019 5:05 pm

uwot wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 4:01 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 2:58 pm
Yes I try to give some reference point to argue from. But you are then missing the point of the rest of the post if that is all you can take from it.
Well, I think you are arguing that we all have our own private perceptions, from which we construct our individual world models to which we respond in our own unique way. Fundamentally that is the theory dependence of observation espoused by Kuhn, Feyerabend and arguably Duhem, but if I have missed something, by all means fill me in.
You have missed the point about the Location of the Screen being embedded in the front of your face. You have missed the whole exercise of recognizing where the background Conscious Light Noise is located. Most people report It is located close to the front of their faces. The next realization is the fact that anything you see when you open your eyes is Painted on that same Screen and is also Located close to the front of your face. Even though we perceive things as being "Out There", the actual Conscious Light that we See is close to our faces. This whole argument about the Conscious Light Screen may or may not be true but it is the way things seem. But the larger reason for thinking about the Conscious Light Screen is to simply stimulate new ways of looking at things and to keep people aware that it is the Visual Experience itself that we need to study. How does that beautiful Color filled Scene, of what you are looking at, get Painted onto that Screen that is truly embedded in the front of your face?

Dimebag
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Re: Exploring The Human Conscious Light Screen

Post by Dimebag » Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:50 am

SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 5:05 pm
uwot wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 4:01 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 2:58 pm
Yes I try to give some reference point to argue from. But you are then missing the point of the rest of the post if that is all you can take from it.
Well, I think you are arguing that we all have our own private perceptions, from which we construct our individual world models to which we respond in our own unique way. Fundamentally that is the theory dependence of observation espoused by Kuhn, Feyerabend and arguably Duhem, but if I have missed something, by all means fill me in.
You have missed the point about the Location of the Screen being embedded in the front of your face. You have missed the whole exercise of recognizing where the background Conscious Light Noise is located. Most people report It is located close to the front of their faces. The next realization is the fact that anything you see when you open your eyes is Painted on that same Screen and is also Located close to the front of your face. Even though we perceive things as being "Out There", the actual Conscious Light that we See is close to our faces. This whole argument about the Conscious Light Screen may or may not be true but it is the way things seem. But the larger reason for thinking about the Conscious Light Screen is to simply stimulate new ways of looking at things and to keep people aware that it is the Visual Experience itself that we need to study. How does that beautiful Color filled Scene, of what you are looking at, get Painted onto that Screen that is truly embedded in the front of your face?
Steve, if what “we” are is in fact our awareness or consciousness, wouldn’t it seem illogical to speak of the location of experience in relation to “our” face, as awareness has no specific location.

Furthermore, maybe the reason the “cls” seems to be where it is, is because of the very location of the sense organs which receive the signals for our vision? Maybe this also has given us the sense that, as an entity, we are located in our heads, as opposed to some other location. Wouldn’t evolution also favour organisms which have a sense that their heads are where “they” are primarily located, so as to be the main area which requires protection from damage?

uwot
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Re: Exploring The Human Conscious Light Screen

Post by uwot » Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:13 am

SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 5:05 pm
You have missed the point about the Location of the Screen being embedded in the front of your face. You have missed the whole exercise of recognizing where the background Conscious Light Noise is located. Most people report It is located close to the front of their faces.
Have you actually asked anyone? Personally, I perceive, as in interpret the data, that objects are at some distance from the front of my face. In the vast majority of cases, the perceptual depth is roughly concordant with the distance I have to travel to reach whatever it is I'm looking at.
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 5:05 pm
The next realization is the fact that anything you see when you open your eyes is Painted on that same Screen and is also Located close to the front of your face. Even though we perceive things as being "Out There", the actual Conscious Light that we See is close to our faces.
Clearly we see things differently.
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 5:05 pm
This whole argument about the Conscious Light Screen may or may not be true but it is the way things seem. But the larger reason for thinking about the Conscious Light Screen is to simply stimulate new ways of looking at things and to keep people aware that it is the Visual Experience itself that we need to study.
Well, that's the motivation behind phenomenology.
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 5:05 pm
How does that beautiful Color filled Scene, of what you are looking at, get Painted onto that Screen that is truly embedded in the front of your face?
Yep, consciousness, whether in front of your nose or between your ears, is a fascinating problem.

SteveKlinko
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Re: Exploring The Human Conscious Light Screen

Post by SteveKlinko » Mon Dec 30, 2019 4:16 pm

uwot wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:13 am
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 5:05 pm
You have missed the point about the Location of the Screen being embedded in the front of your face. You have missed the whole exercise of recognizing where the background Conscious Light Noise is located. Most people report It is located close to the front of their faces.
Have you actually asked anyone? Personally, I perceive, as in interpret the data, that objects are at some distance from the front of my face. In the vast majority of cases, the perceptual depth is roughly concordant with the distance I have to travel to reach whatever it is I'm looking at.
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 5:05 pm
The next realization is the fact that anything you see when you open your eyes is Painted on that same Screen and is also Located close to the front of your face. Even though we perceive things as being "Out There", the actual Conscious Light that we See is close to our faces.
Clearly we see things differently.
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 5:05 pm
This whole argument about the Conscious Light Screen may or may not be true but it is the way things seem. But the larger reason for thinking about the Conscious Light Screen is to simply stimulate new ways of looking at things and to keep people aware that it is the Visual Experience itself that we need to study.
Well, that's the motivation behind phenomenology.
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 5:05 pm
How does that beautiful Color filled Scene, of what you are looking at, get Painted onto that Screen that is truly embedded in the front of your face?
Yep, consciousness, whether in front of your nose or between your ears, is a fascinating problem.
Do you actually sense that the Conscious Light Noise that you see with your eyes closed is a long distance away from you? That would be the first time anyone has reported that. In any case yes it is a fascinating problem.

SteveKlinko
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Re: Exploring The Human Conscious Light Screen

Post by SteveKlinko » Mon Dec 30, 2019 4:30 pm

Dimebag wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:50 am
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 5:05 pm
uwot wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 4:01 pm
Well, I think you are arguing that we all have our own private perceptions, from which we construct our individual world models to which we respond in our own unique way. Fundamentally that is the theory dependence of observation espoused by Kuhn, Feyerabend and arguably Duhem, but if I have missed something, by all means fill me in.
You have missed the point about the Location of the Screen being embedded in the front of your face. You have missed the whole exercise of recognizing where the background Conscious Light Noise is located. Most people report It is located close to the front of their faces. The next realization is the fact that anything you see when you open your eyes is Painted on that same Screen and is also Located close to the front of your face. Even though we perceive things as being "Out There", the actual Conscious Light that we See is close to our faces. This whole argument about the Conscious Light Screen may or may not be true but it is the way things seem. But the larger reason for thinking about the Conscious Light Screen is to simply stimulate new ways of looking at things and to keep people aware that it is the Visual Experience itself that we need to study. How does that beautiful Color filled Scene, of what you are looking at, get Painted onto that Screen that is truly embedded in the front of your face?
Steve, if what “we” are is in fact our awareness or consciousness, wouldn’t it seem illogical to speak of the location of experience in relation to “our” face, as awareness has no specific location.

Furthermore, maybe the reason the “cls” seems to be where it is, is because of the very location of the sense organs which receive the signals for our vision? Maybe this also has given us the sense that, as an entity, we are located in our heads, as opposed to some other location. Wouldn’t evolution also favour organisms which have a sense that their heads are where “they” are primarily located, so as to be the main area which requires protection from damage?
It may be Illogical that the Screen is embedded in the front of our faces but it seems to be the reality of it. You are trying to be Logical but instead you should Ponder. It is a good exercise to think about reasons why the CLS seems to be where it is but the point is that it is in a particular place that you can identify. But thank you for Pondering about it. Our Conscious Minds could be a million miles away from our Physical locations and the perception would be the same. This is just an exercise to make people think. But I also learn from the feedback.

uwot
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Re: Exploring The Human Conscious Light Screen

Post by uwot » Mon Dec 30, 2019 5:35 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 4:16 pm
Do you actually sense that the Conscious Light Noise that you see with your eyes closed is a long distance away from you?
Well since you ask, if I close my eyes it seems to me that any 'light noise' is slightly behind the bridge of my nose. Funny thing the human brain.
SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 4:16 pm
That would be the first time anyone has reported that. In any case yes it is a fascinating problem.
Indeed.

SteveKlinko
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Re: Exploring The Human Conscious Light Screen

Post by SteveKlinko » Tue Dec 31, 2019 5:17 pm

uwot wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 5:35 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 4:16 pm
Do you actually sense that the Conscious Light Noise that you see with your eyes closed is a long distance away from you?
Well since you ask, if I close my eyes it seems to me that any 'light noise' is slightly behind the bridge of my nose. Funny thing the human brain.
SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 4:16 pm
That would be the first time anyone has reported that. In any case yes it is a fascinating problem.
Indeed.
I would say also: Funny thing the Conscious Mind.

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