Can you tell lie to yourself?

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gaffo
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Re: Can you tell lie to yourself?

Post by gaffo » Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:15 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:27 am
The phenomenon of "self-deception" is well-known and frequent.

Here's a simple example.

Your friend is being beaten by her spouse. You counsel her to take the kids and leave, for her own safety.
thats my plight, only the spouse is my friend (never beats her, but a verbal abuser/drunk (my best friend for 40 yrs - only last 3 yrs has turned into a drunk/alcoholic - bent on killing himself and taking all who love him with him).

I counseled his GF (who i don't know) to leave my best friend only 4 months ago.

so i was not wearing rose glasses and thought my friend would get his shit together.

its 4 months later, she is still with him and he is as drunk as ever

;-/.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Can you tell lie to yourself?

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:43 am

gaffo wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:15 am
- bent on killing himself and taking all who love him with him)
Man, that's horrendous...if he ever actually gets in the mood to do it...Well, that just can't be allowed to happen.

As his friend, you owe it to him to stop him from doing it, if you have any means to do so. Can you arrange family intervention? Can you get him into a rehab program? I don't know where you live, so I've got to ask: are there any local authorities or agencies you could alert to the danger to his wife and kids, to say nothing of to himself?

I'd want to do everything I possibly could, if I were you, even if he hated my guts for trying. You wouldn't ever want to have it on your conscience if he did what he's threatening.
I counseled his GF (who i don't know) to leave my best friend only 4 months ago.
Well, you did the right thing. For him as well as for her. So she knows he's homicidal, and her kids are at risk, and she's not doing anything? But if it's not happening, and if you have any means to take it to the next level, I would.
its 4 months later, she is still with him and he is as drunk as ever
Yeah, see...the alcohol may not even be his basic problem. It sounds like maybe there's something deeper that's powering that, and making alcohol seem like a solution. I wonder what that is. He's clearly angry and desperate, based on what you say he's threatened to do.

What are you going to do, G.?

gaffo
Posts: 2731
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Re: Can you tell lie to yourself?

Post by gaffo » Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:22 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:43 am
gaffo wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:15 am
- bent on killing himself and taking all who love him with him)
Man, that's horrendous...if he ever actually gets in the mood to do it...Well, that just can't be allowed to happen.
He's suicidal (via drinking himself to death (we both had a "third amego" 43-20yrs ago (3 of us were best friends since childhood - he "monty" died in 98 via drink at age 32 - we saw it coming for the 5 yrs or so prior (as i know see the same thing with the still alive - barley buddy(. I tell him "remember Monty, and honour his memory by not going down the same road he did", but its in one ear out the other (He a christian BTW (if that matter to you - just stating this as a fact), not homicidal.


Monty was an Atheist - so no doubt in Hell forever. ;-/.



Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:43 am
As his friend, you owe it to him to stop him from doing it,
I can't stop him from killing himself any more than i could our friend Monty.

all i can be is remain his best friend - until the end.

like last time ;-/. 20 yrs ago.

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:43 am
if you have any means to do so. Can you arrange family intervention? ,
his parents have been dead for 20-40 yrs, and 2 of his 3 siblings are assholes and do not care nor talk to him at all. the one sister that is nice does what he can, as do i and my mom (my mom as always thought of my friend as her friend and a sort of adopted son of sorts) she thought the same of my dead friend Monty too)) My mom has always been cool/big hearted in liking my friends and befriending them as her friends.

I thank her for that quality.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:43 am
Can you get him into a rehab program?

He went over the cliff of alchohalism 3 yrs ago for some reason and there is no reasoning with him now. he seems to not wish to help himself.

just waiting to die, and accerating it via drink ;-(.

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:43 am
I don't know where you live,
I lived in TX and OK for many decades each, Norman OK since 1999 however.

you? Canada? (big secret?).
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:43 am
so I've got to ask: are there any local authorities or agencies you could alert to the danger to his wife and kids, to say nothing of to himself?
I'm sure there are, but he is not willing to help himself.

he is not a danger to his GF nor her kid (who is now 19 and living on here own).

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:43 am
I'd want to do everything I possibly could, if I were you, even if he hated my guts for trying. You wouldn't ever want to have it on your conscience if he did what he's threatening.
It out of my control, all i can do is be his friend and lecture him when i drop by (and when i do he is alway bombed - morning or night - weekend or weekday).

I went through the same with our other best friend Money 20 yrs ago,

there is nothing i can do to make him save himself.

that is up to him, and so far i only see him ending up like Monty. ;-(.

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:43 am
I counseled his GF (who i don't know) to leave my best friend only 4 months ago.
Well, you did the right thing. For him as well as for her. So she knows he's homicidal, and her kids are at risk, and she's not doing anything?

she knows he's suicidal and does her best as a spouse (he dad drank himself to death a decade ago - after 30 yrs or so of drinking (lasted longer than Monrty 5 yrs/and my friend Bob (3 yrs so far) we are talking about).

just to clarify when i say drunk i mean - 1/3 pint a day of hard liquor for 5 yrs (Monty)/3yrs (Bob). Both them and myself started to drink out of highschool = around 6 beers every 2 weeks or so from the mid 80's to mid 90's for Monty/2010 for bob) - then became drunks - vodka from sun up to sundown.

I drink too much - been up to 6-pack every week myself since about a decade ago, more than i should - but will leave that discussion for another day - lol.



Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:43 am
its 4 months later, she is still with him and he is as drunk as ever
Yeah, see...the alcohol may not even be his basic problem. It sounds like maybe there's something deeper that's powering that, and making alcohol seem like a solution. I wonder what that is.


I think so too - they guy is 53, and prior to age 50, after drinking for 33 yrs with no problem is now a full bore drunk!

i just don't know what the problem is and i dont think he know consciously, i asked him any times and all he says are 3 bad things and happened in his life (2 close family members died and a misscarage of is GF 3 happened all around the same time), and he hates his job.

we all hate our jobs! ;-/. well most of us anyway! so that................for drinking into a stupor?

i'm thinking there must be something more to it, whatever it is.

i just don;t know.

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:43 am
He's clearly angry and desperate, based on what you say he's threatened to do.

What are you going to do, G.?
He is!!!!

nothing i can do ;-(.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Can you tell lie to yourself?

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Dec 11, 2019 5:54 am

gaffo wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:22 am
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:43 am
As his friend, you owe it to him to stop him from doing it,
I can't stop him from killing himself any more than i could our friend Monty.

all i can be is remain his best friend - until the end.
Well, being a good friend means doing whatever you can for your buddy, with his best interests in mind, whether he gets that or not... so do what you can, I would say.
his parents have been dead for 20-40 yrs, and 2 of his 3 siblings are assholes and do not care nor talk to him at all. the one sister that is nice does what he can, as do i and my mom (my mom as always thought of my friend as her friend and a sort of adopted son of sorts) she thought the same of my dead friend Monty too)) My mom has always been cool/big hearted in liking my friends and befriending them as her friends.

I thank her for that quality.
Your mom sounds like somebody special.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:43 am
Can you get him into a rehab program?
He went over the cliff of alchohalism 3 yrs ago for some reason and there is no reasoning with him now. he seems to not wish to help himself.
just waiting to die, and accerating it via drink ;-(.
Can I ask an odd question?

Is he really desperate? Is he truly at the bottom? Is he actually so down-and-out he wants to die? It sure sounds like he is.

If he is, maybe he'll try one more thing. After all, what's he got to lose?

I have an idea.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:43 am
I don't know where you live,
I've been to Texas. I liked it. I haven't been to Norman, but have friends living in the area.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:43 am
so I've got to ask: are there any local authorities or agencies you could alert to the danger to his wife and kids, to say nothing of to himself?
I'm sure there are, but he is not willing to help himself.
he is not a danger to his GF nor her kid (who is now 19 and living on here own).
He sounds like he's still a danger to himself, though.
he is alway bombed - morning or night - weekend or weekday).
Like that, huh? Yeah, that's bad.
I drink too much - been up to 6-pack every week myself since about a decade ago, more than i should - but will leave that discussion for another day - lol.
What I'm hearing is a whole lot of pain.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:43 am
Yeah, see...the alcohol may not even be his basic problem. It sounds like maybe there's something deeper that's powering that, and making alcohol seem like a solution. I wonder what that is.
I think so too - they guy is 53, and prior to age 50, after drinking for 33 yrs with no problem is now a full bore drunk!
i just don't know what the problem is and i dont think he know consciously, i asked him any times and all he says are 3 bad things and happened in his life (2 close family members died and a misscarage of is GF 3 happened all around the same time), and he hates his job.
we all hate our jobs! ;-/. well most of us anyway! so that................for drinking into a stupor?
i'm thinking there must be something more to it, whatever it is.
That makes complete sense. I'm sure you're right.

Age
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Re: Can you tell lie to yourself?

Post by Age » Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:00 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:50 pm
Age wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:31 am
What do you mean "No".
How can you dispute what is True?
It isn't. That's all I can tell you. You're wrong there.
So, with NO evidence and NO proof, you just tell me "I am wrong".
Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:50 pm
(I'm always amused by the question, "What do you mean, 'No.'" It's like the speaker thinks you can make an answer simpler than two letters. :D )
I find things just as amusing when a THOUGHT is made, and then BELIEVED to be true, that there was even some question to answer, like what just happened here.

You ASSUMING that you were actually answering some thing like a question is just more evidence and more proof of how assumptions and beliefs stop and prevent human beings from SEE what IS thee Truth of what IS actually happening around them.

I just made a comment, if you, however, do not believe it to be true, then so be it. But just saying, "No", does not answer and does not say absolutely any thing at all. As can now be evidenced. Also, a right thinking human being would have at least some sort of evidence or proof to back up and support their belief. But openly admit that you BELIEVE "I am wrong" based on absolutely nothing at all. You can not even saying any thing other than "You are wrong here".

And adults wonder why they get laughed at and not taken serious.

'you', "immanuel can", are a PRIME EXAMPLE of WHY BELIEVING or DISBELIEVING is HOW 'you', human beings, deceive "your own selves", which is more funny here because you wanting to be a "christian" means you want to listen to and follow God, but here you are doing the very opposite, by rejecting God and listening to and following 'deception', which is just "your" own "self", 'the devil', instead.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:50 pm
Knowing God, and not just believing in God, actually stops all longing, all together.
Good heavens, no. It just changes what you think is important.
Is that what happened with 'you', and what 'you' do?

I certainly do NOT long for absolutely any thing at all.

Therefore, your "Good heavens, no", does NOT Truly speak for any one else but 'you'.

The OBVIOUS Truth is 'you' are NOT speaking for 'Me'.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:50 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:17 am
Rather, it makes you attentive to the meaning of things right here and now, as well.
And if you were Truly Attentive, Truly Conscious, and or Truly Aware, then you would already KNOW the meaning of things right here and now, including the meaning of Life, Itself, which would then lead you onto realizing that this is the ONLY Life, and there is NO so called "after-life" from the interpretation, which you have been taught and BELIEVE is true.
I'm perfectly aware this is what you believe.

I don't.
Well you have just PROVEN that 'your' awareness is perfectly WRONG.

I do NOT believe that at all. (Take and assume that anyway you like.)

Also, we are all perfectly aware what you believe, and do not believe.

By the way, at least my views can be PROVEN True, WITH EVIDENCE, while your views and believes obviously can not be.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:50 pm
If, as you say, you are ATTENTIVE to the meaning of things, then what is the unambiguous, irrefutable Answer the very simple clarifying question; What is the meaning of Life?
To know God.
LOL

So, according to "immanuel can" "logic", only those living things, which have the ability to know God, have meaning, correct?

If yes, then what is 'the meaning of life' to those living things that do not have the ability to know God?

If, however, no, then what IS correct, from your perspective?

Do 'you' KNOW God?

If yes, then who and/or what IS God?
Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:50 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:17 am
You stop seeing the world as disposable or as a resource for your self-focused projects, and start seeing your role within a larger plan for the world.
So, why then do you keep just using up the resources and just disposing of them in the polluting ways that you are doing right now, in the days of when this is written, just for your own personal self-focused "projects", which is; in very simple, more Honest terms, is just; your greed?
Of whom are you speaking?
'you', "immanuel can", personally.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:50 pm
I don't personally do this, nor do the vast majority of my fellow Christians, to my knowledge.

(You may perhaps find some odd cases -- anything's possible -- but I know of none.)
The absolute DECEPTION is become STARTLINGLY BLINDING now.

The amount of deception is Truly amazing. Your words here are the PRIME EXAMPLE of 'you', adult human beings, in the days of when this is written. That is; You actually BELIEVE that 'you' do not do wrong, and it is only "OTHER" people who do.

Are you REALLY 'trying to' tell us that 'you', "immanuel can", personally do not currently use up any of the limited resources of earth, which destroys earth, and also do not dispose of any stuff that inevitably turns into pollution, which again destroys earth?

If yes, then okay. (But the only one who 'you' are fooling and deceiving is 'you').

If no, then what do you mean you write and say, "I don't personally do this"?

Also, WHY would any one be so BLIND that their own chosen labeled group of human beings do NOT pollute and destroy earth, and it is only those in the "other" labeled groups who are doing the harm and damage, and the WRONG.

If this was not so serious and not so blatantly STUPID and BLIND-SIGHTED, then it would be absolutely hilarious.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:50 pm
Obviously, as an adult,

Now, this repeated appeal of yours to what is true of "adults" makes it necessary for me to press the question you haven't answered yet.
HOW OLD ARE YOU? I need to know, so I can judge what I can expect you to have in your range of experience, so I can refer to things you understand, and speak to you on a more intelligible level for you. So please answer at the start of your next reply. Thanks.[/quote]

There is NO need for you to "press" at all. As I have explained WHY.

All you NEED to do to speak completely intelligibly so that you are FULLY understood by any one reading and writing in this forum, is to just be Truly OPEN and Honest. There is NO need to know the the age of 'me', "age". Also, when and IF 'you' ever work out, discover, and/or learn who and what the True Self is, then 'you' WILL understand My True age.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:50 pm
you are a greedy human being,
You do not know me.
I KNOW 'you', more than 'you' know 'you'. This can be easily proven, and very simply also.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:50 pm
Are you judging me without knowing? Why?
No, to your first question, so the second question here was only based solely on your own assumptions and beliefs, which, once again, have lead you completely astray. I advise that if you want to learn and see the Truth of things for how they Really ARE, then remaining OPEN always is the best advice. The easiest way to remain Truly OPEN always is to NEVER assume nor believe any thing whatsoever at all.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:50 pm
I'm not offended, but really surprised.
Surprised on what exactly?

Are you now as surprised also about how your own assumption and/or belief just now was absolutely and completely WRONG?

By the way I do NOT "judge" you at all. I just KNOW 'you' better than 'you' do, and I just SHOW this. As I say 'you' are completely FREE to choose to do whatever 'you' WANT TO DO.

I am NEVER going to judge you, nor will I EVER tell you what to do.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:50 pm
...what you have said here does NOT logically follow on from what you BELIEVE is true.
So you say. But you're wrong.
But I have ALREADY PROVEN this. Obviously 'you' would NOT, yet, be able to SEE this because 'you' are the one BLINDING "your self" to thee Truth of things. 'you' are doing this with and by your very own BELIEFS and ASSUMPTIONS.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:50 pm
Considering how many times I have informed you that I neither believe nor disbelieve any thing,

No, THERE'S an implausible claim.
WHY is this a supposedly "implausible claim"?

Do you ALREADY KNOW thee absolute Truth of things here?
Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:50 pm
I can see from your own responses that there are many things you believe.
LOL, ONCE AGAIN, you could not be more WRONG.

REMEMBER, what you SEE (and BELIEVE) may not necessarily be True.

Until 'you' bring your views out in the OPEN for ALL to SEE about EXACTLY what is 'IT' that you BELIEVE I believe, instead of hiding your views and beliefs exactly like you are here, in the truly devilish and deceptive way that you are, and then these views are allowed to be LOOKED AT and discussed, ONLY THEN, if what you BELIEVE is true, will be SEEN to be True, or False.

Until then what you say, but never actually reveal, is just your own hidden version of the truth, which OBVIOUSLY could be just completely and absolutely utterly WRONG.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:50 pm
You may think you're completely above believing things, but you're decidedly not.
LOL talk about "judging", AND talk telling "another" what thoughts are actually inside that body, as if the former one could even know.

Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:50 pm
For example, you have a belief about what being a Theist entails, don't you?
No, not at all.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:50 pm
If you don't, then you would have had no grounds for questioning what I told you about that. But you did.
Once again, here is ANOTHER PRIME EXAMPLE of a human being JUMPING straight into ASSUMING and CONCLUDING, before any clarifying at all, which, once again, is MORE EVIDENCE and PROOF how one CLOSES them off from the real actual Truth of things, and therefore is also STOPPING "them self" from SEEING the actual Truth of things.

I know you can not see, hear, and/or understand this, but, I do NOT need to believe, nor disbelieve, absolutely ANY thing to have the grounds for questioning. I ALREADY KNOW thee actual Truth of things here, so I just NEED to remain OPEN in order to keep asking the right clarifying questions.

Therefore, your whole so called "reasoning" here does NOT work, like just about ALL of your other so called "reasoning" does not work. Your beliefs and assumptions are interfering with and distorting your ability to reason, logically.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:50 pm
But maybe what you really mean is only "I'm Nihilistic, and in despair."
Not at all.

Why would you even think/assume that way? In fact WHY would you even assume any thing at all?
Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:50 pm
In that case, I have some sympathy for your situation. But you still believe things. One thing you'd surely believe, if you were a Nihilist, is that life is meaningless. That's a belief.
SEE how quickly human beings can go so far astray, so simple and so easily, when they assume, before they clarify?

I do not have a situation. I neither believe nor disbelieve things. There is nothing here that I would surely believe, even if i were a "nihilist", which I could NEVER even be anyway. I KNOW the meaning to Life, and other things, so I certainly would NEVER believe any such thing as 'Life is meaningless'. To even consider that 'Life is meaningless' would be to completely oppose what I SEE. This is NOT a belief.

So, just about EVERY thing you said here could NOT be more WRONG than it was, and IS.

By the way, some might say that having sympathy for some thing that is completely nonexistent, and as such is a complete figment of one's imagination and/or belief-system, would bound on being at the verge of insanity.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:50 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:17 am
But I am saying there are good Theistic reasons for not interpreting life as a waste and dispatching yourself.
So, what are they?
I've already spoken of them. It's because in Christianity, this life is a preparing grounds for eternal life and friendship with God.
LOL this is like saying this life is because of a big bang. BOTH are as STUPID to say, and as illogical and unreasonable to say, as each other.

'you', human beings, Truly are completely BLINDED by your own distorted and illogical BELIEFS.

OBVIOUSLY, a "good "theistic reason" for not interpreting things in a certain way that goes against "christianity", itself, would be because "In christianity" there is a certain way to interpret things. So, at least you are being logical here. However, you obviously misunderstood my question.

I will make my clarifying question in a more obvious way, in which I meant it. What alone are the 'good reasons' for not interpreting life as a waste and dispatching yourself?
Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:50 pm
Also, what could possibly 'prepare' some one for eternal life and friendship with God?
In the True sense of God, being born into this one and only eternal Life is being in friendship with God. That is; If 'you', adult human beings, did not get in the way of this with your completely illogical and irrational BELIEFS and ASSUMPTIONS, which can be SEEN above, and throughout this forum, and "world" in which you have created with and from those beliefs/thoughts.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:50 pm
The things through which we pass here have immense, lasting value in our thinking.
Lol and where and how do 'you' propose "our" thinking will exist outside of this one and only eternal Life?
Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:50 pm
Even the sufferings of this life are dignified by contributing to the shaping of our characters and the forming of our selves.
But IF ANY of 'you' are suffering, then OBVIOUSLY some thing that 'you' are doing IS WRONG, and therefore must need changing.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:50 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:17 am
I'm not proposing to speak for all "adults."
But your very last sentence you were proposing to speak for (all?) adults.
No, I was not. I can speak only for myself, my fellow Christians (to a limited extent) and for Theists (to an even more limited extent). I don't propose to speak for every adult.
Noted. 'you' can only speak for "yourself", for absolutely EVERY one "else" then you are LIMITED.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:50 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:17 am
The world is not a very nice place, in some ways.
The sole and ONLY reason WHY this is so is because 'you' adult human beings have made it this way.
Don't look at me, on that score. I inherited the world the way it is. So do we all.
Typical response of an adult human being. I do NOT cause the problems in Life. This is because I do NOT do WRONG.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:50 pm
This again suggests to me you must be quite young.
You ASSUMING that I was even thinking any thing like suggests that could be STUPID beyond "belief". SEEING one's own made up ASSUMPTIONS being true, BEFORE any clarification has actually been done, leaves that one completely CLOSED to any thing else. Therefore, that one being an exact definition of 'stupidity'.

Seeing one's very own made up ASSUMPTION as being what suggest some thing some "else" had done or said, completely removes ANY and ALL Truth from this.

The "conclusion" you arrived at now, and have had along anyway, that I am "young" is based off what 'you' ASSUMED/IMAGINED I was thinking, which was so absolutely WRONG that it is completely laughable.

You could NOT be more mistaken here even if you wanted to be.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:50 pm
It's a perspective only someone very young could take.
Thee actual Truth IS that is a perspective that only someone like 'you' could have imagined and made up.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:50 pm
But let me know in your next message, so I get that right.
i have already explained what I am going to NOT do in regards with providing you a number in this regard.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:50 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:17 am
So again, I ask: how old are you? Sincere question.
Answering that would detract from the points I am making,
No. It would help us talk intelligibly to one another.
Provide the two different examples you would give for explaining the same thing if I said I was 17 or 77.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:50 pm
Your arguments suggest very strongly you're a teenager.


But you have proven that you can not even yet differentiate between a comment, a question, and an argument, so what APPEARS to you is NOT my argument, but YOUR interpretation of what I have written.

There are MANY upon MANY times you have NOT even understood the words I used in the way I used them, let alone understood the actual meaning behind them and/or behind the meaning behind the whole sentence and/or the whole paragraph of what I am saying.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:50 pm
I can figure that much out. I just can't tell exactly where in that range you fall.
LOL You are NOT even close to imagining the Truth, let alone being close to being able to figure out what you believe you have, let alone even getting close to ANY range at all.

ALL 'you' are 'trying to' do is look more superior than "another". This is because 'you' actually BELIEVE that 'you', adults, are more intelligent than children are.

The actual Truth of things will surprise you beyond you have even ever previously imagined. 'you', adults, are far more CLOSED thus far more STUPID than children ever will be.

By the way would you explain things differently if I was in the lower range of teenager than if I was in the higher range?

If no, then WHY the absolute necessity to KNOW the EXACT age? You have already figured out that 'I am a teenager', right? Is that not good enough for you?

If you would explain things differently to a younger teenager than to an older teenager, then please go ahead and provide examples of how you would do this.

Age
Posts: 3949
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Can you tell lie to yourself?

Post by Age » Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:39 pm

Walker wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:29 pm
Age-
Age wrote: If the rule I follow is different than "theirs", then I think the rule that I follow will take me elsewhere.
Walker wrote: Every rule takes them and you to the grave or the pyre.
Age wrote: If this is what you BELIEVE, then it MUST be true, correct?
Walker wrote:That last comment is a non sequitur.

Present belief only affects the future if it leads to action, and no action* by you or them will prevent the inevitable, which is not contingent on belief.

* (a more clear wording is, there is no action that can be taken by you or them that will prevent the inevitable, however the inevitable can be delayed, but not indefinitely.)
Age wrote:Why do you believe that my last comment, you quoted, which is actually a question and not a comment, is non sequitur?
Your efforts to assign belief to others while exempting yourself from belief is irrelevant to the first two quotes.
If you say so, but just so you are aware absolutely NO effort is needed to recognize, see and assign your own beliefs to 'you', while exempting 'me' from belief is just as easy and simple as I have NO belief. And, if this very simple and easy process was irrelevant, than really it does not matter at all then.
Walker wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:29 pm
The fourth quote explains this.

Your rule, your belief, and your lack of belief all take you to the same place.
Are you completely unable to understand the words; I NEITHER BELIEVE OR DISBELIEVE ANY THING? Seriously, this is NOT complicated nor hard at all to understand.

What you imagine is the same place 'you' and 'I' end up, is NOT the same place where 'you' and 'I' end up. Can you comprehend this?
Walker wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:29 pm
btw: Have some consideration for your readers and edit out the nonsense before posting, rather than logging every non sequitur that flits through your noggin.
I am considering MY 'readers' far more than you could even imagine, when this is written. 'you' just do NOT know who MY 'readers' ARE.

I am NOT editing one thing I have written. SEE, unlike you, I CAN back up and support just about all of what I say and write, WITH actual evidence AND proof.

If you think or believe that there is absolutely any thing that I can not back up and support, then I invite you to HIGHLIGHT it here, for ALL to SEE, and tell us WHY you perceive it be WRONG and tell us what exactly is WRONG about it, then through a Truly OPEN, clarifying discussion we WILL SEE if what you perceive is "nonsense" actually IS or is NOT.

I have ALREADY PROVEN that what you alleged was a "comment" I wrote, which you also said was "non sequitur", were BOTH WRONG. If we want to look at written nonsense, then we can START with your words if you like.

At least I highlight what was written, which I say is flawed, and then I SHOW, with EVIDENCE and PROOF, WHAT is flawed, and WHY it IS flawed. All you say is some thing like you have here, which does NOT prove any thing other than your IMAGINED perspective of things.

For example, I could tell you; Have some consideration for your readers and edit out the nonsense before posting, rather than logging every thing else you do.

OBVIOUSLY, any one reading this could SEE that that says and means nothing at all, other than I have a perception, which I can NOT back up and support.

If you BELIEVE you can back up and support your statement, then DO what I CAN and HAVE DONE, which you have NOT.

PROVE what you say is true, do NOT just BELIEVE it is true, and allude to that it might be true.
Walker wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:29 pm
Sentient AI, now that's another story because by then, you can't pull the plug.
Has this got any bearing on the FACT that 'you' tell lies to "your self" and have become so good at it, that 'you' are Truly unaware when and if 'you' are lying to "your self"?

If yes, then what is it?

If no, then okay.

Age
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Re: Can you tell lie to yourself?

Post by Age » Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:57 pm

gaffo wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:15 am
Immanuel Can wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:27 am
The phenomenon of "self-deception" is well-known and frequent.

Here's a simple example.

Your friend is being beaten by her spouse. You counsel her to take the kids and leave, for her own safety.
thats my plight, only the spouse is my friend (never beats her, but a verbal abuser/drunk (my best friend for 40 yrs - only last 3 yrs has turned into a drunk/alcoholic - bent on killing himself and taking all who love him with him).

I counseled his GF (who i don't know) to leave my best friend only 4 months ago.
Why only "counsel" one of them?

Are you a "counselor"?
gaffo wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:15 am
so i was not wearing rose glasses and thought my friend would get his shit together.
How does it follow that this is "not wearing rose glasses" just because you, so called, "counseled" one to leave the "other" who is perceived to be more "special"? ALL adults human beings "wear rose glasses", it does not matter what you would have said or done here.
gaffo wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:15 am
its 4 months later, she is still with him and he is as drunk as ever

;-/.
So what is the reason WHY "she" is still with him, AND, what is the reason WHY "he" still drinks?

Hint, when 'you' all stop telling lies to "yourselves", then thee Answer will become KNOWN.

'you', adult human beings, can "counsel" each "other" till the end days. But if you do not know WHY you ALL do what you are doing, then you will NEVER fix the problems that you are ALL causing and creating.

Find the reason WHY you are all doing the things you are doing, then that behavior can be prevented from happening again, thus be Truly STOPPED for good, once and for all.

By the way, thinking that one can tell "another" what to do through, so called, "counselling" is just another form of ' lying to "ones' self" '

Age
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Re: Can you tell lie to yourself?

Post by Age » Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:27 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:43 am
gaffo wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:15 am
- bent on killing himself and taking all who love him with him)
Man, that's horrendous...if he ever actually gets in the mood to do it...Well, that just can't be allowed to happen.
WHY?

Is there NOT an eternal life in Peace and Harmony awaiting for us "after" this Life?

Then they OBVIOUSLY would all be together in eternal Peace and Happiness.

Besides the FACT that "him" wanting to do that IS just Truly understandable, saying, that it can not be allowed to happen, absolutely contradicts your interpretation and BELIEF about some, so called, "after-life".

Also, 'you' INSIST that "that just can't be allowed to happen" infers that 'you' KNOW how to STOP it. So, HOW do you propose to do that?

As his friend, you owe it to him to stop him from doing it, if you have any means to do so. [/quote]

That means that it would take 24 hours a day seven days a week constant observance and surveillance over "him". Is that even possible?

Also, telling this person that they OWE it to "him", then how would that make this person feel IF "he" did do want "he" after all wants to do anyway.

If you tell some one that they OWE some thing to some one, who then kills them "self", could the former one going to then feel somewhat guilty for not GIVING or PAYING BACK what you said they OWED "them"?
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:43 am
Can you arrange family intervention? Can you get him into a rehab program? I don't know where you live, so I've got to ask: are there any local authorities or agencies you could alert to the danger to his wife and kids, to say nothing of to himself?
To me, this sounds like HELP. But what about ALL the "other" ones that NEED HELP also?

Also, what is that other God saying; Help you before you can help "others"?
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:43 am
I'd want to do everything I possibly could, if I were you, even if he hated my guts for trying.
But WHY do you only want to do all you possibly could to the ones who are friends?
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:43 am
You wouldn't ever want to have it on your conscience if he did what he's threatening.
Who are you to tell some one what they would or would not want on their conscience if some one "ELSE" did some thing?

Would you want it on your conscience that you have made a person feel absolutely terrible if their best friend took their "life" and the "lives" of a select few "others"?

Would you like me or some one to say to you; You wouldn't ever want to have it on your conscience that you have made some feel absolutely horrible and absolutely useless because they did not stop their best friend from murdering "others" and killing "them self", would you?

If yes, then I will say it.

If no, then just imagine how "others" would feel when you tell them what they would or would not want on their conscience, especially considering it is not some thing that they had any True control over. Now imagine how they would feel if the "other" person did do some thing.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:43 am
I counseled his GF (who i don't know) to leave my best friend only 4 months ago.
Well, you did the right thing. For him as well as for her. So she knows he's homicidal, and her kids are at risk, and she's not doing anything? But if it's not happening, and if you have any means to take it to the next level, I would.
How do you KNOW you WOULD?

If you are NOT in the EXACT SAME situation, then you do NOT know what you WOULD DO, obviously.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:43 am
its 4 months later, she is still with him and he is as drunk as ever
Yeah, see...the alcohol may not even be his basic problem. It sounds like maybe there's something deeper that's powering that, and making alcohol seem like a solution. I wonder what that is. He's clearly angry and desperate, based on what you say he's threatened to do.

What are you going to do, G.?
Are you suggesting that "gaffo" HAS TO do some thing?

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Re: Can you tell lie to yourself?

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:28 pm

Age, how old are you? What is your age?

It is you who have made it a question. You have divided yourself off, in your comments, from "adults." That means, clearly, people older than you. So we need to know of whom you are speaking. Moreover, we need to know of whom you are NOT speaking, i.e. people your own age.

So?
Last edited by Immanuel Can on Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Can you tell lie to yourself?

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:30 pm

Age wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:27 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:43 am
gaffo wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:15 am
- bent on killing himself and taking all who love him with him)
Man, that's horrendous...if he ever actually gets in the mood to do it...Well, that just can't be allowed to happen.
WHY?
No, Age...this is my conversation with another person. Thanks for respecting that.

Age
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Re: Can you tell lie to yourself?

Post by Age » Thu Dec 12, 2019 9:25 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:28 pm
Age, how old are you? What is your age?

It is you who have made it a question. You have divided yourself off, in your comments, from "adults."
I did NOT make any thing here such a question, OBVIOUSLY, it was 'you', "immanuel can", who asked, thus made, the question/s, which if the Truth be KNOWN was made because of your own ASSUMPTIONS.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:28 pm
That means, clearly, people older than you.
That certainly does NOT mean, clearly, people are older that 'I'.

This is your ASSUMPTION only, and which, by the way, if you are NOT yet AWARE could be completely and utterly absolutely WRONG. So, what you SEE 'clearly' could be, and/or IS, muddying the waters. If you BELIEVE your ASSUMPTIONS are, clearly, absolutely True, then 'you' are beyond learning and understanding any thing other than that.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:28 pm
So we need to know of whom you are speaking. Moreover, we need to know of whom you are NOT speaking, i.e. people your own age.
Why do you BELIEVE that you NEED to KNOW such things?

I already explained what would happen if you did know such things, that is that that would distract from the actual Truth. You said that it would help you talk intelligibly to the "other". I asked you to provide examples of how you would speak differently if you KNEW between two given examples of different ages.

You provided NOTHING.

Also, noted is your use of the word 'we' once again. Who is this 'we' you speak of here? As you have already noted 'you' can only Truly speak for 'you' and 'you' only. So, WHY speak for 'we' again?

If, however, 'you' now NEED to KNOW 'whom' I am speaking when I use the 'adult' word, which for some reason you can NOT work out for "yourself", then, I will tell 'you', "immanuel can". When I say, " 'you', adult human beings", then I MEAN those human beings who are NOT children of the species, 'human being'.

Therefore, 'whom' I am speaking when I use the 'adult' word is those of 'whom' 'you', "immanuel can", classeas those 'who' are adult human beings. And, moreover, if 'you', "immanuel can", need to know of 'whom' I am NOT speaking, then that is the human beings 'you' class as non adult human beings, which is; NOT necessarily in relation to ANY age 'you' ASSUME I am, by the way. 'Whom' I am NOT speaking IS 'children'.

When I use the 'adult' word;
Whom I speak is whoever you class as 'adults', and, whom I NOT speak is whoever you class as 'children'. Is this now FULLY clear and understood, or do I still need to explain this further for 'you', "immanuel can"?

Also, what you ASSUME My "age" is, could literally not be any more WRONG.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:28 pm
So?
So, this means that I have clarified 'whom' I am speaking, and not, and this also means that you can NOT provide any reasonable reason WHY I should provide the age of "age", to 'you'.

Also, I want you to continue ASSUMING things, such as the age of "age", as I can then use those ASSUMPTIONS as examples to provide evidence and proof of why ASSUMING things has such a detrimental effect on exposing, revealing, and seeing the actual REAL Truth of things.

So, this is another reason WHY I will not tell you some thing for now. Obviously when you are Truly able to understand things much better, then such things I WILL explain to you "immanuel can".

Age
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Re: Can you tell lie to yourself?

Post by Age » Thu Dec 12, 2019 9:42 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:30 pm
Age wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:27 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:43 am

Man, that's horrendous...if he ever actually gets in the mood to do it...Well, that just can't be allowed to happen.
WHY?
No, Age...this is my conversation with another person. Thanks for respecting that.
Yes, "immanuel can", or No, "immanuel can", whichever way one wants to look at this.

This is A conversation started by 'you', two human beings, which I joined, which I know you could respect, that is; if you wanted to respect this.

By the way, are 'you', "immanuel can", aware of a 'private messaging' ability in this forum.

Also, you responding like this can be SEEN as just completely ignoring and dismissing my views wholeheartedly, which were just pointing out on your complete lack of empathy in that situation.

You responding like this can SHOW that you want to reject ANY or ALL of what I was pointing out, as though what i said was not true or did even not exist, and you responding like this could be PROOF also that you do not want to respond to any of my clarifying questions, because of what those answers could expose. So, once again, you could be providing MORE EXAMPLES of ' one telling lies to "them self" ', and, more importantly, just HOW one actually ' tell lies to "them self" '.

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Re: Can you tell lie to yourself?

Post by Immanuel Can » Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:44 pm

Age wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 9:25 am
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:28 pm
Age, how old are you? What is your age?
Same question. I'll answer you when you answer me.

Age
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Re: Can you tell lie to yourself?

Post by Age » Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:41 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:44 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 9:25 am
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:28 pm
Age, how old are you? What is your age?
Same question. I'll answer you when you answer me.
But I do NOT care one iota if you answer me or not.

I have already shown and proven, with evidence, what I set out to do here in this thread.

Walker
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Re: Can you tell lie to yourself?

Post by Walker » Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:36 am

Age wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:41 am
I have already shown and proven, with evidence, what I set out to do here in this thread.
Prove the affirmative?

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