Can you tell lie to yourself?

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Walker
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Re: Can you tell lie to yourself?

Post by Walker »

Age wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:59 am Is this something like believing in God, and God's supposed word about being rewarded with eternal life after one person's own death, but not really trusting that, and not really wanting go there because they will do absolutely every thing they can to stay alive, in this place, that they know and can actually trust?

They are deceived. But they are their own deceiver. Do they want to leave and be eternally happy or do they want to stay here, no matter what happens to them? They are not so deceived that they do not know on some level. But it is hard to say what it is they really know?
Do you think the rule that you follow will take you elsewhere than them? If so, then you must also think that mind creates reality.

“If the rule you followed brought you to this, of what use was the rule?”
- Cormac McCarthy
Age
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Re: Can you tell lie to yourself?

Post by Age »

Walker wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:23 am
Age wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:59 am Is this something like believing in God, and God's supposed word about being rewarded with eternal life after one person's own death, but not really trusting that, and not really wanting go there because they will do absolutely every thing they can to stay alive, in this place, that they know and can actually trust?

They are deceived. But they are their own deceiver. Do they want to leave and be eternally happy or do they want to stay here, no matter what happens to them? They are not so deceived that they do not know on some level. But it is hard to say what it is they really know?
Do you think the rule that you follow will take you elsewhere than them? '
If the rule I follow is different than "theirs", then I think the rule that I follow will take me elsewhere.

For example, some rules takes you to greed and separation, while other rules take you to Peace and Unity.
Walker wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:23 am If so, then you must also think that mind creates reality.
In a sense, I think this is true.

But I do have a different view of things. So, I would NOT be so sure of yourself BEFORE you gain clarification.

From the sense of what I think you are using the word 'mind' here, then I think this is certainly not true.
Walker wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:23 am“If the rule you followed brought you to this, of what use was the rule?”
- Cormac McCarthy
The rule I am following is the one that leads to Creating Peace for ALL. So, where I am brought to now, 'this', is exactly where I am supposed to be. To achieve the goal, which I am Creating, then 'this' is PERFECT. The use of the rule I follow is in order to Create that, which I want, and which ALL of you desire. So, the use of this rule is for the Good of ALL.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Can you tell lie to yourself?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Age wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:59 am Is this something like believing in God, and God's supposed word about being rewarded with eternal life after one person's own death, but not really trusting that, and not really wanting go there because they will do absolutely every thing they can to stay alive, in this place, that they know and can actually trust?
I suppose that maybe it would be if dying were the mission of Theism. But it isn't.

Empirically, you'll see that Theists tend to believe that this life has immense value in terms of determining the conditions of the future life. Were it not so, you'd probably see masses of Theists committing suicide: but outside of extremely radical cults like the Solar Temple or the Jonestown-Guyana group, you don't see anything like that happening. What you see instead is that Theists tend to be extremely active in investing in the welfare of this place, and very earnest about their actions right now. However, they don't see this world as of ultimate value, meaning it's not more important than the world to come, so you also don't seem them clinging to it with the desperate terror of some other people who think this life is all there is. It's important to them, but not consummately so.

So no, it's not a case of that.
Nick_A
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Re: Can you tell lie to yourself?

Post by Nick_A »

Lying to oneself is common. It is called vanity. Can you imagine what the fashion world would be like without the need to to lie to oneself?
1: inflated pride in oneself or one's appearance : CONCEIT
Walker
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Re: Can you tell lie to yourself?

Post by Walker »

Age wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:37 am
Walker wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:23 am
Age wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:59 am Is this something like believing in God, and God's supposed word about being rewarded with eternal life after one person's own death, but not really trusting that, and not really wanting go there because they will do absolutely every thing they can to stay alive, in this place, that they know and can actually trust?

They are deceived. But they are their own deceiver. Do they want to leave and be eternally happy or do they want to stay here, no matter what happens to them? They are not so deceived that they do not know on some level. But it is hard to say what it is they really know?
Do you think the rule that you follow will take you elsewhere than them? '
If the rule I follow is different than "theirs", then I think the rule that I follow will take me elsewhere.
Every rule takes them and you to the grave or the pyre.
Age
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Re: Can you tell lie to yourself?

Post by Age »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 3:41 pm
Age wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:59 am Is this something like believing in God, and God's supposed word about being rewarded with eternal life after one person's own death, but not really trusting that, and not really wanting go there because they will do absolutely every thing they can to stay alive, in this place, that they know and can actually trust?
I suppose that maybe it would be if dying were the mission of Theism. But it isn't.
If not doing what will get 'you', personally, to 'eternal life' after what 'you' call dying is not the mission of theism, then what is the mission of theism?
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 3:41 pmEmpirically, you'll see that Theists tend to believe that this life has immense value in terms of determining the conditions of the future life.
The 'future life', which is just 'this life' but in the future, correct?

If no, then please explain how there could actually possibly be 'another life'. Like for example where could this separate other life actually be?, what it looks like?, what happens there?, et cetera.
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 3:41 pmWere it not so, you'd probably see masses of Theists committing suicide:
Well comparing what you are led to believe happens to 'you', so called "theists", after your own personal lives here in this life, to what actually happens here, then I am extremely surprised you have not all committed suicide by now.

You all must have some instinctual KNOWING that what you all personally BELIEVE is true is in fact NOT true at all. Otherwise it makes no sense at all to stay HERE, in this life, with all the stress caused by all the disagreeing and disputing, which all you adults do, and with all the conflict caused by the fighting and warring you adults do, and all the pollution and mess that you have to suffer living in and with. In fact the more this is looked at, why do you not rush for that much better world/life, which all you "theists" BELIEVE is TRUE?
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 3:41 pmbut outside of extremely radical cults like the Solar Temple or the Jonestown-Guyana group, you don't see anything like that happening.
Yes I KNOW what I do not see. That is WHY I am questioning you for clarification.
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 3:41 pm What you see instead is that Theists tend to be extremely active in investing in the welfare of this place, and very earnest about their actions right now.
But this is an absolute LIE that I SEE 'you', adults, telling "yourselves". I do NOT see what you BELIEVE I see.

What I see is, you adults investing in NOT the welfare of this place, but in the "welfare" of your own selves and a select few "other" selves. What I see you adult human beings doing is for you and a select few only.

If you were seriously extremely active in investing in this 'place', being this "world", or 'way of life', then I would obviously be SEEING a much better "world", and a much 'better way of life', than I am looking at, seeing, and observing, right now, when this is written.

And, as for 'you', adults, being earnest, let alone very earnest, then I have not heard some thing as funny as this for ages.

ALL of 'you' adults are in complete DENIAL of your wrong actions and behaviors, right now, when this is written. From each one of your perspectives there is an element of Don't Even kNow I Am Lying.

As I said previously 'you', adult human beings, have become absolute experts at deception and deceiving that 'you' are all completely unaware that you are now all lying to 'your selves', each one of you, including to your own 'self'. you have become so devious that you are literally stopping yourselves" from being able see "the forest from the trees", as they say. You can not see the forest/thee Truth because you are only look at the tree believing the tree to be the actual Truth. You are so focused on your own view being true, and so focused on insisting that it is true, that you have forgotten how to look at other points of views. You, literally, do not look at what IS the actual Truth.

Your own BELIEFS is 'you' lying to your own 'self'.
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 3:41 pm However, they don't see this world as of ultimate value, meaning it's not more important than the world to come, so you also don't seem them clinging to it with the desperate terror of some other people who think this life is all there is.
But this is exactly what I do SEE. Every time they get sick they do absolutely every thing they can to get better. I certainly have not observed any one not trying to get better. Unless of course they KNOW that they are just about to "die" and that there is NOTHING MORE that they can do. But this same ritual goes for any one, and not just the ones that call them "theists". In fact I have observed the so called "theist" ones continually crying and begging not to die. So, why is this so?

'you', "theists", tell us that "life after death" for 'you', people, is going to be absolutely wonderful, marvelous, and pure bliss, but here you are begging not to die, pleading with "others" for help to stay alive. To me, this appears very contradictory and very hypocritical behavior, especially considering to what they believe and say is true. But maybe it is I who sees things all wrong, and it is 'you', people, who are seeing and KNOWING what the actual and REAL Truth IS, after 'you' ALL "die"?
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 3:41 pm It's important to them, but not consummately so.
This could be very easily, and very simply, disputed.

If 'you', "immanuel can", can not personally see the lies you tell "yourself", then that is a PRIME EXAMPLE of the EVIDENCE and the PROOF needed to back up and support the views, which you said earlier in this post. You were saying your earlier views were accurate, true, right and correct, correct?
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 3:41 pmSo no, it's not a case of that.
This, obviously, all depends on what 'that' is exactly.

'you' can keep lying to "yourself" for as long as you want for all I care. After all it is only 'you' who suffers, NOT ME.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Can you tell lie to yourself?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Age wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:21 am Well comparing what you are led to believe happens to 'you', so called "theists", after your own personal lives here in this life, to what actually happens here, then I am extremely surprised you have not all committed suicide by now.

You all must have some instinctual KNOWING that what you all personally BELIEVE is true is in fact NOT true at all.
No, that's my point: knowing God does not merely make you long for eternity -- though it does do that. Rather, it makes you attentive to the meaning of things right here and now, as well. You stop seeing the world as disposable or as a resource for your self-focused projects, and start seeing your role within a larger plan for the world. So it makes all the sense in the world to stay in the world, since you have it only once and for a little time, and here, you have work to do that has lasting consequences: so it doesn't make sense to hurry off it.

I'm not telling you you have to believe that's how it is. But I am saying there are good Theistic reasons for not interpreting life as a waste and dispatching yourself.
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 3:41 pm What you see instead is that Theists tend to be extremely active in investing in the welfare of this place, and very earnest about their actions right now.
But this is an absolute LIE that I SEE 'you', adults, telling "yourselves". I do NOT see what you BELIEVE I see.
"You" adults?

I can't say whether you see it or not. I can only tell you that's how it is in reality, and that others see what (perhaps) you do not yet see.
What I see is, you adults investing in NOT the welfare of this place, but in the "welfare" of your own selves and a select few "other" selves. What I see you adult human beings doing is for you and a select few only.
I'm not proposing to speak for all "adults." Some are living for one thing, and some for another. Like children, some are selfish and some are more kind. So you'll note I did not say that "adults" are earnest, or that "adults" are investing in this world. Many, perhaps most, "adults" are not. But your question was not about "adults" but about "Theists." And in specific, I answered on behalf of Christians...not even speaking of all Theists.

The world is not a very nice place, in some ways. And for Atheists, that's got to be a terminal realization. There's no cure for evil in Atheism. For Atheism, evil is just another way-things-are, and things that "just are" are beyond real remedy. Neither in this life, nor in the next (which Atheists do not believe in anyway) can the fact of evil be dealt with, or this world saved from itself.

So get mad at God, if you think you have reason to; and argue with Him if you must. But it won't help to appeal to Atheism. Atheism's not listening and doesn't care. It's not even capable of caring. It has no ears.
As I said previously 'you', adult human beings,
So again, I ask: how old are you? Sincere question.
In fact I have observed the so called "theist" ones continually crying and begging not to die. So, why is this so?
You'll have to tell me more about this. I don't know what your experience is on this point, and it's not mine.
Age
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Re: Can you tell lie to yourself?

Post by Age »

Walker wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:04 pm
Age wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:37 am
Walker wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:23 am
Do you think the rule that you follow will take you elsewhere than them? '
If the rule I follow is different than "theirs", then I think the rule that I follow will take me elsewhere.
Every rule takes them and you to the grave or the pyre.
If this is what you BELIEVE, then it MUST be true, correct?
Age
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Re: Can you tell lie to yourself?

Post by Age »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:17 am
Age wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:21 am Well comparing what you are led to believe happens to 'you', so called "theists", after your own personal lives here in this life, to what actually happens here, then I am extremely surprised you have not all committed suicide by now.

You all must have some instinctual KNOWING that what you all personally BELIEVE is true is in fact NOT true at all.
No,
What do you mean "No".

How can you dispute what is True?
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:17 amthat's my point:knowing God does not merely make you long for eternity
I KNOW that God does not merely make you long for eternity. I did NOT say any thing opposing this.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:17 am-- though it does do that.
Knowing God, and not just believing in God, actually stops all longing, all together.

Believing things makes you long for things.

You long for an everlasting life, after, what you call, "die" in this life. This is because you BELIEVE things to be true, which WILL BE SHOWN to be completely untrue, and very misleading, which is WHY I have been leading to the FACT that 'you', adult human beings, do NOT even know that you are lying to "your own selves".
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:17 am Rather, it makes you attentive to the meaning of things right here and now, as well.
And if you were Truly Attentive, Truly Conscious, and or Truly Aware, then you would already KNOW the meaning of things right here and now, including the meaning of Life, Itself, which would then lead you onto realizing that this is the ONLY Life, and there is NO so called "after-life" from the interpretation, which you have been taught and BELIEVE is true.

If, as you say, you are ATTENTIVE to the meaning of things, then what is the unambiguous, irrefutable Answer the very simple clarifying question; What is the meaning of Life?

Here is a hint, that Answer is very easy to discover and KNOW, that is; once you KNOW the formula needed for knowing how to answer all of these meaningful questions, properly and correct.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:17 am You stop seeing the world as disposable or as a resource for your self-focused projects, and start seeing your role within a larger plan for the world.
So, why then do you keep just using up the resources and just disposing of them in the polluting ways that you are doing right now, in the days of when this is written, just for your own personal self-focused "projects", which is; in very simple, more Honest terms, is just; your greed?

Obviously, as an adult, you are a greedy human being, who, through your behaviors, is causing and allowing the death of and the dying of "other" people and of, literally, the 'world', itself, earth.

Now, if you do not want to look at this fact, then remember that this ability to lie to one's self is what this topic is all about.

So now, you are alleging that you have started seeing your role within a larger plan for the world, so then my very simple clarifying questions posed to you now will be;
So what is "your role" within the larger plan for the world?
And, is that role any different than any one "else's" is?
What is the actual "larger plan" for the world?
Who/what devised this plan, and where is it so that we can all SEE it?
Why would there be a "larger plan" for this world, if after all, you and the "world" are just going to "die" and live for eternity somewhere else, either in peace or not?
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:17 am So it makes all the sense in the world to stay in the world, since you have it only once and for a little time, and here, you have work to do that has lasting consequences: so it doesn't make sense to hurry off it.
Sure, it makes all the sense to stay in this one and ONLY Life, since the 'you' is only here for a very short time, and it makes sense to do what is Right because of the lasting consequences that has on this one and ONLY eternal Life. But, what you have said here does NOT logically follow on from what you BELIEVE is true.

Obviously, if what you BELIEVED was true, then there is NO use doing any thing in this what you call "world". What you have just said here is actually completely counters what you BELIEVE is true, and which you are 'trying so hard' to argue and fight for. What you have said here comes from the internal KNOWING within, which will ALWAYS OVERRIDE the lies and deception that you human beings 'try' and tell yourselves is true.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:17 amI'm not telling you you have to believe that's how it is.
Considering how many times I have informed you that I neither believe nor disbelieve any thing, then it would appear to be a very stupid thing to do if you were even contemplating telling ME to believe this or any thing else, especially considering the very reasons WHY I do NOT believe any thing at all.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:17 am But I am saying there are good Theistic reasons for not interpreting life as a waste and dispatching yourself.
So, what are they?

What is one good reason why a human being known as a "theist" would want to stay in a place that can be hell at times, especially considering when they could be living in heaven for eternity?

There must be some underlying reason WHY you choose to stay HERE?
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:17 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 3:41 pm What you see instead is that Theists tend to be extremely active in investing in the welfare of this place, and very earnest about their actions right now.
But this is an absolute LIE that I SEE 'you', adults, telling "yourselves". I do NOT see what you BELIEVE I see.
"You" adults?
What is the question mark here for? Are you asking some sort of question?

Is your BELIEF of some thing being already true overriding your actual ability to remain completely OPEN and CURIOS, and just ask me a simple clarifying question?

The Answer to my question posed to you here just now is obvious, but from the human being perspective there is just to much subtlety in all of this for you to be able to yet see it.

Even though the Truest desire in that human being is to be curious and wanting and desiring to learn more and become wiser, you can not just ask a simple clarifying question properly. This is for two reasons;

Your learned and build up emotions of embarrassment and/or fear of looking 'stupid' overrides the REAL Self to come out.
As well as, you BELIEF that you already KNOW what the truth is anyway
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:17 amI can't say whether you see it or not.
You do NOT have to say any thing. I have already expressed thee Truth here.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:17 amI can only tell you that's how it is in reality, and that others see what (perhaps) you do not yet see.
If you really BELIEVE that you KNOW what 'Reality' IS, then here is ANOTHER PRIME EXAMPLE of a human being lying to "them self" without an absolutely clue that this is what they are actually doing.

Also, you claim that 'you' and "others" 'see how reality is', yet here 'you' and "them" are that if I asked any of 'you' what IS Reality, actually? It is then 'you', human beings, who are the ones who end up disagreeing, disputing, and in conflict with one "another". Why is this, if supposedly as you say 'you' and "them" see reality for how it is?
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:17 am
What I see is, you adults investing in NOT the welfare of this place, but in the "welfare" of your own selves and a select few "other" selves. What I see you adult human beings doing is for you and a select few only.
I'm not proposing to speak for all "adults."
But your very last sentence you were proposing to speak for (all?) adults. Just go back and read the way you write, and this can be CLEARLY SEEN.

You even made the claim that 'you' and "them" see things for how they really are. You are so strong in your BELIEVE that what you see is reality and that that is how 'you' AND "them" see things, that you will NOT even believe that I do NOT see things that way at all. So, really you were proposing in a very strong way to speak for (all?) adults AND about how 'reality' really IS.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:17 am Some are living for one thing, and some for another.
But you have all grown up learning to live just one's self and a tiny select few "other selves".

This can be clearly observed and SEEN every day, in the days of when this is being written.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:17 am Like children, some are selfish and some are more kind.
Another instant adult human being reaction is now being SHOWN here. When thee Truth is being exposed an adult human being will quickly turn things around so that they, themselves, are not being looked at, and in this example the attention is turned onto 'children', as though they are somehow to blame for this. Or, because they do some thing, then this means we are not responsible or not as responsible for things. This gets turned onto children because children are the ones who can not defend them selves. Even if and when they try to speak up for themselves, they are instantly dismissed and/or "put in their place", as you adults would say.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:17 am So you'll note I did not say that "adults" are earnest, or that "adults" are investing in this world. Many, perhaps most, "adults" are not. But your question was not about "adults" but about "Theists."
So, either we can stay on the topic of "theists", "adults", or absolutely any one "else". I really do NOT care which ones you want to choose to LOOK AT, instead of your own "self", I am OPEN to ALL or ANY.

Any way you choose I KNOW what the outcome will be anyway.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:17 am And in specific, I answered on behalf of Christians...not even speaking of all Theists.
Was the word "christian" used in ANY of my writings in this thread, let alone in the actual clarifying questions I posed to you?

If yes, then where.

If no, then WHY answer on behalf of 'you' so labelled "christians"?
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:17 amThe world is not a very nice place, in some ways.
The sole and ONLY reason WHY this is so is because 'you' adult human beings have made it this way.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:17 amAnd for Atheists, that's got to be a terminal realization. There's no cure for evil in Atheism.
Yes there IS, and it is the SAME cure for evil in ALL of you adult human beings.

Besides that, labeling, by separating, ALL human beings into some sort of only imagined groups, like "atheism", "theism", et cetera is a form of 'evil' in and of itself. But we are long way off from looking at and delving into this FACT and Truth.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:17 am For Atheism, evil is just another way-things-are, and things that "just are" are beyond real remedy.
The cure is just change the thinking. Life, and living, REALLY is just this simple and easy.

Neither in this life, nor in the next (which Atheists do not believe in anyway) can the fact of evil be dealt with, or this world saved from itself.[/quote]

Just ANOTHER BELIEF, which one human being personally BELIEVES is the absolute truth.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:17 amSo get mad at God, if you think you have reason to; and argue with Him if you must.
Why would any one get mad at God? And why would any one 'try' and turn any thing onto God? Adults have this very bad habit of NOT wanting to LOOK AT themselves and 'trying to' turn this LOOKING onto some thing else, like children, God, or any thing else but their own selves. Just like what happened in the story of two adult human beings, one named adam and one named eve.

Absolutely EVERY thing God does is for your own good. It is what 'you', adult human beings, which is NOT what is for your own good.

I can NOT argue with some thing that does NOT exist. There is NO God that is a "him". And the God that exists I am always 'arguing' WITH anyway. That is when the word 'argue' is being defined NOT in the context that you are taking it here to mean, but in the other meaning and context.

i am logically reasoning with God about HOW to express things in a way, which you, human beings, WILL UNDERSTAND, FULLY. Unfortunately, though, this little insignificant human being, does NOT listen FULLY, and so does express things WRONGLY, at times.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:17 am But it won't help to appeal to Atheism.
I NEVER thought it would help appealing to "atheism", and I NEVER would even contemplate appealing to "atheism", "theism", nor ANY other "ism", nor in fact any thing else also.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:17 amAtheism's not listening and doesn't care. It's not even capable of caring. It has no ears.
Obviously. The only things that are known to have ears are 'you' animals.

And the ONLY one's who are able to 'listen' to God or thy True Self, is 'you' human animals.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:17 am
As I said previously 'you', adult human beings,
So again, I ask: how old are you? Sincere question.
Answering that would detract from the points I am making, which one IS; instead of ASSUMING some thing when I use the words " 'you', adult human beings ", and then posing a question BASED on that ASSUMPTION only, why do you NOT just remain completely Truly OPEN, and then ask a Truly inquisitive clarifying question, such like; What do you actually mean when you use these words ...?

When I use the words, " 'you', adult human beings', this has absolutely NOTHING AT ALL to do with age, Me, nor 'you'.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:17 am
In fact I have observed the so called "theist" ones continually crying and begging not to die. So, why is this so?
You'll have to tell me more about this. I don't know what your experience is on this point, and it's not mine.
Obviously my experience on this point is NOT yours, and just about EVERY one of my experiences on just about EVERY point I am making is NOT yours.

Therefore, if the Truth be KNOWN, if you had REALLY wanted to KNOW what I have been REALLY saying on ALL of my points previously, then you would have written in this Truly BEAUTIFUL and Truly OPEN way previously.

Although you are NOT asking a Truly specific clarifying question, which would speed this whole process up absolutely considerably, at least you have now SHOWN that you are WONDERING.

Because I do NOT like to ASSUME absolutely any thing, as this behavior leads away from the actual Truth of things far too quickly, I would usually ask you to clarify what 'this' IS EXACTLY, which you say I HAVE TO tell you more about. But I will not, THIS TIME.

The absolute majority of adult human beings, and not just those ones with that incorrect label "theist", when they, or their so labeled "close ones", are faced with what is incorrectly labeled "death" and/or "dying", then those ones cry and beg for help not to "die". This can be done with the simple behavior of just going to a hospital to get help. In other words the vast majority of you will do ALL you can to stay alive, which I have alluded to is because you ALL KNOW that the actual Truth IS there is only One Universe, which is the One Place in which where absolutely EVERY thing is held within. Heaven and hell are NOT some other place some other where. They are just labels used to describe different 'ways of life', in this one and ONLY place we have labeled the 'Universe'.

From this it can then be logically followed where and why the labels the 'after-life', 'here-after, et cetera came to be, and what and how they exist in way that makes PERFECT SENSE for Everyone.
Walker
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Re: Can you tell lie to yourself?

Post by Walker »

Age wrote: If the rule I follow is different than "theirs", then I think the rule that I follow will take me elsewhere.
Walker wrote: Every rule takes them and you to the grave or the pyre.
Age wrote: If this is what you BELIEVE, then it MUST be true, correct?
That last comment is a non sequitur.

Present belief only affects the future if it leads to action, and no action by you or them will prevent the inevitable, which is not contingent on belief.
Age
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Re: Can you tell lie to yourself?

Post by Age »

Walker wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2019 11:38 am
Age wrote: If the rule I follow is different than "theirs", then I think the rule that I follow will take me elsewhere.
Walker wrote: Every rule takes them and you to the grave or the pyre.
Age wrote: If this is what you BELIEVE, then it MUST be true, correct?
That last comment is a non sequitur.
If this is what you now BELIEVE, then it MUST also be true, correct?

Why do you believe that my last comment, you quoted, which is actually a question and not a comment, is non sequitur?

What does 'non sequitur' actually mean to you?

How can this, which is just an obviously very simple clarifying question, not logically follow, any and every belief?
Walker wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2019 11:38 amPresent belief only affects the future if it leads to action, and no action by you or them will prevent the inevitable, which is not contingent on belief.
This last comment of yours actually does not logically follow, nor just follow, at all my clarifying question.

If belief does not produce an action, then what does?

What do you believe is the inevitable?

Is it even possible that what you believe (here) may actually not be what IS True at all?

In fact your comment here is actually NOT true at all. That thinking is just ANOTHER PRIME EXAMPLE of one telling lies to "them self", but never actually being able to notice, nor see, it.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Can you tell lie to yourself?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Age wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:31 am What do you mean "No".
How can you dispute what is True?
It isn't. That's all I can tell you. You're wrong there.

(I'm always amused by the question, "What do you mean, 'No.'" It's like the speaker thinks you can make an answer simpler than two letters. :D )
Knowing God, and not just believing in God, actually stops all longing, all together.
Good heavens, no. It just changes what you think is important.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:17 am Rather, it makes you attentive to the meaning of things right here and now, as well.
And if you were Truly Attentive, Truly Conscious, and or Truly Aware, then you would already KNOW the meaning of things right here and now, including the meaning of Life, Itself, which would then lead you onto realizing that this is the ONLY Life, and there is NO so called "after-life" from the interpretation, which you have been taught and BELIEVE is true.
I'm perfectly aware this is what you believe.

I don't.
If, as you say, you are ATTENTIVE to the meaning of things, then what is the unambiguous, irrefutable Answer the very simple clarifying question; What is the meaning of Life?
To know God.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:17 am You stop seeing the world as disposable or as a resource for your self-focused projects, and start seeing your role within a larger plan for the world.
So, why then do you keep just using up the resources and just disposing of them in the polluting ways that you are doing right now, in the days of when this is written, just for your own personal self-focused "projects", which is; in very simple, more Honest terms, is just; your greed?
Of whom are you speaking? I don't personally do this, nor do the vast majority of my fellow Christians, to my knowledge. (You may perhaps find some odd cases -- anything's possible -- but I know of none.)
Obviously, as an adult,

Now, this repeated appeal of yours to what is true of "adults" makes it necessary for me to press the question you haven't answered yet.

HOW OLD ARE YOU? I need to know, so I can judge what I can expect you to have in your range of experience, so I can refer to things you understand, and speak to you on a more intelligible level for you. So please answer at the start of your next reply. Thanks.
you are a greedy human being,
You do not know me. Are you judging me without knowing? Why? I'm not offended, but really surprised.
...what you have said here does NOT logically follow on from what you BELIEVE is true.
So you say. But you're wrong.
Considering how many times I have informed you that I neither believe nor disbelieve any thing,

No, THERE'S an implausible claim. I can see from your own responses that there are many things you believe.

You may think you're completely above believing things, but you're decidedly not. For example, you have a belief about what being a Theist entails, don't you? If you don't, then you would have had no grounds for questioning what I told you about that. But you did.

But maybe what you really mean is only "I'm Nihilistic, and in despair." In that case, I have some sympathy for your situation. But you still believe things. One thing you'd surely believe, if you were a Nihilist, is that life is meaningless. That's a belief.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:17 am But I am saying there are good Theistic reasons for not interpreting life as a waste and dispatching yourself.
So, what are they?
I've already spoken of them. It's because in Christianity, this life is a preparing grounds for eternal life and friendship with God. The things through which we pass here have immense, lasting value in our thinking. Even the sufferings of this life are dignified by contributing to the shaping of our characters and the forming of our selves.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:17 amI'm not proposing to speak for all "adults."
But your very last sentence you were proposing to speak for (all?) adults.
No, I was not. I can speak only for myself, my fellow Christians (to a limited extent) and for Theists (to an even more limited extent). I don't propose to speak for every adult.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:17 amThe world is not a very nice place, in some ways.
The sole and ONLY reason WHY this is so is because 'you' adult human beings have made it this way.
Don't look at me, on that score. I inherited the world the way it is. So do we all.

This again suggests to me you must be quite young. It's a perspective only someone very young could take. But let me know in your next message, so I get that right.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:17 am So again, I ask: how old are you? Sincere question.
Answering that would detract from the points I am making,
No. It would help us talk intelligibly to one another. Your arguments suggest very strongly you're a teenager. I can figure that much out. I just can't tell exactly where in that range you fall.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Can you tell lie to yourself?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Age wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:31 am What do you mean "No".
How can you dispute what is True?
It isn't. That's all I can tell you. You're wrong there.

(I'm always amused by the question, "What do you mean, 'No.'" It's like the speaker thinks you can make an answer simpler than two letters. :D )
Knowing God, and not just believing in God, actually stops all longing, all together.
Good heavens, no. It just changes what you think is important.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:17 am Rather, it makes you attentive to the meaning of things right here and now, as well.
And if you were Truly Attentive, Truly Conscious, and or Truly Aware, then you would already KNOW the meaning of things right here and now, including the meaning of Life, Itself, which would then lead you onto realizing that this is the ONLY Life, and there is NO so called "after-life" from the interpretation, which you have been taught and BELIEVE is true.
I'm perfectly aware this is what you believe.

I don't.
If, as you say, you are ATTENTIVE to the meaning of things, then what is the unambiguous, irrefutable Answer the very simple clarifying question; What is the meaning of Life?
To know God.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:17 am You stop seeing the world as disposable or as a resource for your self-focused projects, and start seeing your role within a larger plan for the world.
So, why then do you keep just using up the resources and just disposing of them in the polluting ways that you are doing right now, in the days of when this is written, just for your own personal self-focused "projects", which is; in very simple, more Honest terms, is just; your greed?
Of whom are you speaking? I don't personally do this, nor do the vast majority of my fellow Christians, to my knowledge. (You may perhaps find some odd cases -- anything's possible -- but I know of none.)
Obviously, as an adult,

Now, this repeated appeal of yours to what is true of "adults" makes it necessary for me to press the question you haven't answered yet.

HOW OLD ARE YOU? I need to know, so I can judge what I can expect you to have in your range of experience, so I can refer to things you understand, and speak to you on a more intelligible level for you. So please answer at the start of your next reply. Thanks.
you are a greedy human being,
You do not know me. Are you judging me without knowing? Why? I'm not offended, but really surprised.
...what you have said here does NOT logically follow on from what you BELIEVE is true.
So you say. But you're wrong.
Considering how many times I have informed you that I neither believe nor disbelieve any thing,

No, THERE'S an implausible claim. I can see from your own responses that there are many things you believe.

You may think you're completely above believing things, but you're decidedly not. For example, you have a belief about what being a Theist entails, don't you? If you don't, then you would have had no grounds for questioning what I told you about that. But you did.

But maybe what you really mean is only "I'm Nihilistic, and in despair." In that case, I have some sympathy for your situation. But you still believe things. One thing you'd surely believe, if you were a Nihilist, is that life is meaningless. That's a belief.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:17 am But I am saying there are good Theistic reasons for not interpreting life as a waste and dispatching yourself.
So, what are they?
I've already spoken of them. It's because in Christianity, this life is a preparing grounds for eternal life and friendship with God. The things through which we pass here have immense, lasting value in our thinking. Even the sufferings of this life are dignified by contributing to the shaping of our characters and the forming of our selves.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:17 amI'm not proposing to speak for all "adults."
But your very last sentence you were proposing to speak for (all?) adults.
No, I was not. I can speak only for myself, my fellow Christians (to a limited extent) and for Theists (to an even more limited extent). I don't propose to speak for every adult.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:17 amThe world is not a very nice place, in some ways.
The sole and ONLY reason WHY this is so is because 'you' adult human beings have made it this way.
Don't look at me, on that score. I inherited the world the way it is. So do we all.

This again suggests to me you must be quite young. It's a perspective only someone very young could take. But let me know in your next message, so I get that right.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:17 am So again, I ask: how old are you? Sincere question.
Answering that would detract from the points I am making,
No. It would help us talk intelligibly to one another. Your arguments suggest very strongly you're a teenager. I can figure that much out. I just can't tell exactly where in that range you fall.
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bahman
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Re: Can you tell lie to yourself?

Post by bahman »

Huyen John wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:26 am Do you lie to yourself?

What is the difference between lying and being mistaken? To be mistaken is to err because of ignorance, and to lie, is willfully repeating something you do not believe is true. So how can a person willfully repeat something to themselves that they know is not true? Is it even possible?

I have been told that the answer can only be either yes, or no. But maybe there is a middle ground. Because in order for one to lie to oneself, you can only do so in ignorance that you truly are lying to yourself: which looks like ‘mistaken’. There is a difference though, because of what you are willfully ignoring of what you can know.

Let’s say that you are told that your significant other is cheating on you. You choose not to believe it. You find evidence in the form of a love letter; your significant other informs you that it is an old letter from a past lover. Many in this situation have found it possible to convince themselves it is not true. Because they cannot, will not; accept the truth for the pain of it. As long as the verification does not come from the significant other, people have found a way to tell themselves it isn’t true. When they have access to the evidence they need to prove otherwise: It is a willful deceit—a lie. But it can only be maintained as long as there is no definite proof ‘from the horse’s mouth’. And such a person will not examine evidence to ‘prove’ the lie wrong, because they could not handle the truth, and are too afraid of what they would find. So they find workarounds to remain ignorant enough to hold on to the lie.

The path to lying to oneself then must begin with ignoring evidence. Indeed, even warping evidence if necessary to maintain the façade we have built our lives on. When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change. And so, be careful little eyes what you see, be careful little ears what you hear, because knowledge cannot be unlearned, it can only be ‘adjusted’ by the viewer to support their belief system with disregard for any other truth than the first decision of what is true to measure truth against.

Let me try to put it another way: if you have accepted one truth that Jesus is the son of God, as an ultimate truth, it is now impossible for you to truly entertain any idea’s that go against that truth. So when a paper titled ‘Jesus is not the son of God, and why I know he isn’t’ becomes available, many a person will not read it, because it does not affirm their belief it is true. That individual is lying to themselves. A person who believed such honestly, would not refuse to read it, or even fear reading it, because they believe the truth honestly, and would probably read it just to tear apart the paper as false and so then strengthen their faith, and have belittled a liar.

The evidence of a person lying to themselves is evident in what they will refuse to examine at all costs. You can beg, you can plead, you can offer money, or reward, but an individual that is lying to themselves will not examine any evidence that will potentially destroy the lie. They do this without even really being aware of doing it, but in the back of their mind they know. They are consciously aware that whatever it is they are lying to themselves about must not be a lie. And the only way to protect that is willful ignorance.
Yes. When you are not open to the truth.
Walker
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Re: Can you tell lie to yourself?

Post by Walker »

Age-
Age wrote: If the rule I follow is different than "theirs", then I think the rule that I follow will take me elsewhere.
Walker wrote: Every rule takes them and you to the grave or the pyre.
Age wrote: If this is what you BELIEVE, then it MUST be true, correct?
Walker wrote:That last comment is a non sequitur.

Present belief only affects the future if it leads to action, and no action* by you or them will prevent the inevitable, which is not contingent on belief.

* (a more clear wording is, there is no action that can be taken by you or them that will prevent the inevitable, however the inevitable can be delayed, but not indefinitely.)
Age wrote:Why do you believe that my last comment, you quoted, which is actually a question and not a comment, is non sequitur?
Your efforts to assign belief to others while exempting yourself from belief is irrelevant to the first two quotes. The fourth quote explains this.

Your rule, your belief, and your lack of belief all take you to the same place.

btw: Have some consideration for your readers and edit out the nonsense before posting, rather than logging every non sequitur that flits through your noggin.

Sentient AI, now that's another story because by then, you can't pull the plug.
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