I'm a Theist

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 9074
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: I'm a Theist

Post by Immanuel Can »

gaffo wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 3:02 am clarify the nature of my post death soul, nature of the place of Hell for me to understand.
I'm sorry...I can't clarify farther than God Himself does.

What I can tell you is this: we have a chance now, in "the Day of Salvation" to make a good choice. I can also tell you that later we can't or won't make a different choice. But I cannot tell you precisely why you won't -- whether by compulsion or by pride. I can only offer suppositions and reasonings on that. I don't have Scripture to tell me for sure.
after finding myself still "alive" in Hell, i'll know you were right and i was wrong and repent!
The only teaching about a man in Hell that we have on this subject is in Luke 16:19-31. It's the story of the rich man and Lazarus. I invite you to consider it.
will your God save me from Hell or let me burn forever in Hell as a Christian (formerly Athiest as a mortal).

asking you Sir.
Answering you: we have not one single example in Scripture of a soul going from Hell to Heaven. Not one. But we do find explicit teaching that lost is forever. So one can decide to believe what God says about that, or not...but to be wrong about this is to lose one's soul, so it's not a thing to hover in uncertainty about.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:29 am So then, you would HAVE to choose to believe the right thing -- you'd have no option. So you'd no longer be free to choose.
ok, so you are saying that in this life as mortal i never "saw god in my path"

I can't speak about what you have seen so far. What I can say is this: that at this moment, you're talking to a Christian about salvation. And he's telling you what God says about it. So you'll never be able to say to God, "I had no idea" -- at least, not after today.
but in the next "life" (in Hell in my case/Heaven in yours) - upon seeing god then, "it don't count" for your God?
It's not that it "doesn't count." It's that if you were faced with Almighty God, you would no longer have any choice at all about whether or not you believed in Him, or wanted to choose Him. Your free will would be over, and not because of anything He did, but because of who He is. You would simply be unable to doubt Him anymore.
what does it say about your God if that is so?
What it says is that it's very gracious of God to allow us a period of time in which we are genuinely free to choose to love Him or not. That's awfully kind, and much kinder than He needs to be.
and with a humble heart from the belly of Hell itself as a lost soul for the first time knowing your God and asking for his love and repreive, will give it to me?
Well, again...I point you to Luke 16.
"now" is an infinately small irrelvancy to the overal timeline of immoral souls
That's not a problem.

Like I said earlier, the period of time you stand at the altar making a decision about the woman you marry is a very, very short period of time. But you're expected to hold to that decision. The period of time we have in life is more than ample for a man or woman to make up his or her mind about where they want to spend eternity.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:29 am there is enough evidence of the existence of God for a rational person to believe in Him
sadly, apearently not, i am quite rational BTW.
Apparently yes. After all, we're talking about it right now, aren't we?
If your assurtion were true we would all be Christians
No because there's also enough latitude to disbelieve, if one's inclination runs that way. And people can be awfully impervious to evidence.
So you God only show "just enough" for the "elect" to see him, and the rest be damned.
I'm not a Calvinist. I don't believe in election. That's just Determinism in a religious outfit. I believe God gives us free will, and He responds to our choice when we make it.
I'm fucked then (on Earth and in Hell).

so be it.
That would be up to you. I would hope you would choose otherwise. But like God, I'll only ask and inform, not force you to that opinion.


Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:29 am and own what we decide.

you sound like a Gnostic, the elect, some born for salvation others like me born to burn.
The Gnostics don't believe that, actually...it's the Calvinists who do. And they don't believe in free will. I do.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:29 am That chance will not be around forever, though.

why not?
Because to honour someone's decision means to make it come about. If someone decided to be with God, then to make that come about. If someone decides not to be, to make that come about. But if God subverts your decision, then He never really honoured your freedom or individuality at all.
if man has an immortal soul, what is the purpose of having his action while on earth set in concrete - fixed upon his death.
So that he would have both volitional freedom AND eternal life.
...assuming man has a soul and it is immortal, then its life while on Earth is irrelivent per the timeline of immortality, so why the fuck would any actions of said immortal soul on the earth have any relivence per its overall "live" as a spirit with freewill?
You're playing a numbers game there. What matters is not how long your time of opportunity is, but how sufficient, adequate and genuine. You have enough time.

But if God is going to honour your choice, when is that going to happen? It cannot be postponed forever, or it is not really being done at all.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:29 am
it is you who is refusing Freewill of the dead

I'm not doing anything of the kind, actually.
with respect i think you are.
I'm not. God is saying what is the case there. My opinion is not involved.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:29 am What does matter is our free choice right now.
Why "right now" so important if man has an immortal soul?
Because free choice must be honoured, eventually; which means its choice must be allowed to stand. Or it has not been freedom, and God has not honoured your choice at all.
let me ask you this,
why does your God waste an immortal soul if all He cares about are the actions of said souls while on Earth a few short years?
It's not their actions He is concerned about. They are, as James says, merely the evidence of the faith, and the faith is the essential thing. What concerns God is the hearts of men. Some choose to be in relationship to Him, and others choose not to be.

And right now, are you not conscious of the choice you're talking about? You're proposing to wait until you're dead, then hope you will want and have a way to repent, if that's how things turn out. You know exactly what you're choosing.
whats the point in giving us immortal souls?
Because God loves and wants us. Death was not His original purpose for us. It's just a very unfortunate side-effect of us using our freedom to take a bad alternative by rejecting God.
I'll choose from Hell.
So you say. But you have no idea whether or not you will, because you're not there now.
will your God hear me?
Luke 16.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:48 pm But I hope you never try to find out by that route.
why not so?
Because if you're wrong (and obviously, on the basis of Scripture I think you are) then you will have made your last mistake.

But if you choose that, you'll have deserved it, won't you? You'll have been given a chance to choose the way God has provided for you to be in relationship with Him, and you'll already have despised it.

Why would you do that now? I don't know. If I were you, I wouldn't. But it's your choice. I'm just saying that God will honour your choice about that.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:48 pm I do not know what your choice in Hell will be. Neither do you.
I know you assume i have a soul and freewill.
Now, you do.
i know you believe in a just god.
I do.
so why would your god castrate my soul upon death to deny me knowing him from Hell?
He won't need to, I think: you'll do it yourself, if that's the route you choose.
your Jesus preached to those in hell for the 3 days he was dead (peter 2).
What specific passage are you referring to there?
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:48 pm So speculation will not help us here.
my concern is justice.
So is God's. Except His conception of justice actually determines what happens in the end.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:48 pm Now, when you've really made your choice, you can't blame Him for confirming it for you. It was your choice in the first place. He doesn't owe you to reverse a bad choice. What we all owe, when we make a choice, is to live with its natural consequences. If we tell God, "I want nothing to do with You," then we can't complain when we get that...no matter how long it lasts. It was our choice.
as stated many times. i'm not into the blaime game, and strive to be Humble, which is a virtue BTW.
Well, God is the final judge. That's what makes men rightly humble. It's the realization that man is not all-knowing, all-powerful, righteous and just. That should keep us humble.

But God is Judge. And He's a righteous Judge. And He's the all-powerful Judge. He makes no mistakes. And He's never unfair, even when we don't get what He's doing.

His word is final on these things. And our preferences are not decisive. Humility also reminds us of that.

Good chatting with you.
BardoXV
Posts: 67
Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:29 pm

Re: I'm a Theist

Post by BardoXV »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:10 am
gaffo wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 3:02 am will your God save me from Hell or let me burn forever in Hell as a Christian (formerly Athiest as a mortal).

asking you Sir.
Answering you: we have not one single example in Scripture of a soul going from Hell to Heaven. Not one. But we do find explicit teaching that lost is forever. So one can decide to believe what God says about that, or not...but to be wrong about this is to lose one's soul, so it's not a thing to hover in uncertainty about.
Actually we do have one example, according to our creed Jesus went to hell and on the 3rd day was resurrected then later ascended to heaven.
gaffo
Posts: 3476
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: I'm a Theist

Post by gaffo »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 3:32 am
gaffo wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:32 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 12:00 am
I don't know what a "good guy" is, if there is no standard of objective "goodness."
don't be silly, good is objective, and we are both good fellows.

you know this!
I'm just pointing out that you're implying we both have an objective standard of what makes somebody "good." But in a purely accidentally-created universe, there would be no such standard. Whatever exists would be neither "good" nor "bad." Those terms would not merely be subjective -- they would have no real meaning at all.
you sold out to Saul's views
There's no "selling out." There are only those who listen and those who don't.
James, Your God's Son's brother stated rightly that "Faith without works is dead".
He did. And he's right. But you need to notice what he says: what is dead without works? Faith. Why is faith important? Because only faith saves. Works are good, but are only the evidence of the faith that a person already has...you can see this when James writes, "show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” (James 2:18)
but you guys ignore jesus' brother's book, choosing Saul's letters and related.
Not at all. As you can see, they actually agree.
but i'm an athiest born to burn forever and so not worthy to learn from..............
This is not something I said. I try to learn from everybody. I read the great Atheists far more often than I read theologians, actually; but somewhat less than I read the Bible itself, of course.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 12:00 am How do we suppose, then, that what we assess as "good works" ought to come up to His standard?
that is the Beam-speck standard of perfection and silly and not obtainable.
You're right: it's not humanly obtainable. But that's because we're all sinners, not because the standard's wrong.
Jame's Christianity, Judiasm and Islam are ok with striving to be "Good enough" as good enough for salvation.
James wouldn't agree. But you're right about (at least modern) Judaism and Islam. Humanist religion also says that. Mankind has a desire to bring the standard of "good enough" within their reach. The question is not whether or not they want it: it's whether they can have what they want.

Jesus Himself said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life: no man comes to the Father (God) but by me." So all the works aren't going to amount to salvation for anyone.
if that is not good enough for your God, or Saul's God, so be it.
I suppose that sort of fatalistic response would be necessary -- if God had not created a better way. But He has.
thanks for reply BTW
You're most welcome. And thank you for your thoughts too.
Thanks for reasoned reply - and mostly agree with it.

BTW - I'm not a moral-relativist, and glad you are not either.

oh, and your quote "by Jesus" was by what the author of Gospel of John said Jesus said.

Jesus offered not surviving record of his sayings personally (may not have been literate either - we don't know one way or other - illiteracy is a sad fact, even today in a 1st world nation there are too many that are so (I had the fortune to have good parents to help me as a dyslexic kid to learn literacy) - I know of two folks around my age in a First world (or so they say - though i do see my state as backsliding these last 30 yrs or so) State, in a frist world nation, who lack my parents, and so though empoyed to the best of thier ability, are doomed to low wage jobs via thier illiteracy.

both folks are smart, just "lost the train" to learn to read in primary school (after that window of past it becomes nearly immossible to learn to read later - esp when they due to self-shame, hid it from all they know later.

I'm a good guy, they saw this, and so confided in me your plight. prior to a decade ago i assumed illiteracy in America was around 1-percent, but now suspect it is around 10-percent. this is outragious and i blame our education system as a failure to allow it!

---------

I like Gospel of Mark the most, in it your Jesus is the most human, and so i can relate to him as me.

Matt/Luke in between.

John's Christ is more robot and human, has all the answers, and so i do not relate to that version of your Christ in any way. He too perfect, and me not being so - cannot relate to Him.

thanks for reply Sir.
gaffo
Posts: 3476
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: I'm a Theist

Post by gaffo »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:10 am
The only teaching about a man in Hell that we have on this subject is in Luke 16:19-31. It's the story of the rich man and Lazarus. I invite you to consider it.


I read Luke decades ago and am fully aware of your reference.

I reject it theologically if you God is just.

if he were Just, he would allow repentence from Hell, your Luke reference says God's mercy is only for the living, not the dead that repent.

if so, so be it. I can't make an immoral God a moral one.

- you're the Christian, you close that circle and maintain a "moral and loving" (to only the living appearently) God it you can.

Good luck.

IMO either your Luke reference is wrong theologically, or its correct and your God as an Asshole - giving men immortal souls, but not letting them repent and know Him after there death here on Earth.


Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:10 am
The Gnostics don't believe that, actually...it's the Calvinists who do. And they don't believe in free will. I do.

I have read many works over the decades concerning Gnostics (there were both Christian and Jewish forms) - both camps affirmed the concept of The Elect.

and yes i know about Calvinism, but my post was refering to the Gnostic (which you seem to know less about than myself if i may conjecture upon).


- snipped the rest of your post.............

thanks for Reply Sir!
gaffo
Posts: 3476
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: I'm a Theist

Post by gaffo »

BardoXV wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:42 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:10 am
gaffo wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 3:02 am will your God save me from Hell or let me burn forever in Hell as a Christian (formerly Athiest as a mortal).

asking you Sir.
Answering you: we have not one single example in Scripture of a soul going from Hell to Heaven. Not one. But we do find explicit teaching that lost is forever. So one can decide to believe what God says about that, or not...but to be wrong about this is to lose one's soul, so it's not a thing to hover in uncertainty about.
Actually we do have one example, according to our creed Jesus went to hell and on the 3rd day was resurrected then later ascended to heaven.

yes -peter2 - i refered to it yesterday.

but that only saved the lost souls in Hell that lived prior to 0 AD.

-----------

all nonchristians born since 2000 yrs ago are fucked, until or unless Jebus decends to Hell later to save us born to burn non believers.

BTW, i hope He does - soon, next year, next millinium/etc.........so when i find myself in Hell (like Moses did) - Jesus will give me the Good News (like He did Moses) - and allow my salvation upon my repentance knowing prior i was worm Athiest unworthy of saving while a mortal worm.

.............

But the "Bible" has been "Walled off" so if there are future Prophets that write about a 2/3/40th/etc future return to Hell by the Son of God, those works will be deem heresy and not allowed into the Canon.

so i'm fucked, Christ will not return to Hell a 2/3/40th time in the future to save me (though he did to others like me - but good for them to have been born 2000 yrs ago and not too late for Salvation, as you and i have been).

oh well, I await Hell.......................FOREVER.

so be it.
Last edited by gaffo on Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:38 am, edited 3 times in total.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 9074
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: I'm a Theist

Post by Immanuel Can »

BardoXV wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:42 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:10 am
gaffo wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 3:02 am will your God save me from Hell or let me burn forever in Hell as a Christian (formerly Athiest as a mortal).

asking you Sir.
Answering you: we have not one single example in Scripture of a soul going from Hell to Heaven. Not one. But we do find explicit teaching that lost is forever. So one can decide to believe what God says about that, or not...but to be wrong about this is to lose one's soul, so it's not a thing to hover in uncertainty about.
Actually we do have one example, according to our creed Jesus went to hell and on the 3rd day was resurrected then later ascended to heaven.
Well, the "went to Hell" part of that is debated -- it occurs in some creeds, but is not easy to substantiate Biblically-- but yes to the resurrection.
gaffo
Posts: 3476
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: I'm a Theist

Post by gaffo »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:35 am
BardoXV wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:42 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:10 am
Answering you: we have not one single example in Scripture of a soul going from Hell to Heaven. Not one. But we do find explicit teaching that lost is forever. So one can decide to believe what God says about that, or not...but to be wrong about this is to lose one's soul, so it's not a thing to hover in uncertainty about.
Actually we do have one example, according to our creed Jesus went to hell and on the 3rd day was resurrected then later ascended to heaven.
Well, the "went to Hell" part of that is debated -- it occurs in some creeds, but is not easy to substantiate Biblically-- but yes to the resurrection.

its not debated bubba.


Its in peter2, peter2 is in the Canon.

so your picking and choosing shows you are not honest about the Bible you profess to affirm as Truth.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 9074
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: I'm a Theist

Post by Immanuel Can »

gaffo wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:22 am if he were Just, he would allow repentence from Hell, your Luke reference says God's mercy is only for the living, not the dead that repent.
Right. That's what it says.

But your term "immoral" is surely unjustified. It's quite moral to give people a chance to choose. It's also moral to respect the choice they make, if you do. But there is never any moral requirement that people should be allowed to change their minds forever. That idea is, in fact, in no moral code I know.

But be very careful what you say about God, even if you find there's something you don't understand or don't like about what He says. Jesus Himself said, " But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment." (Matt. 12:36)

Personally, I don't mind if you want to insult me; I'm bulletproof. But I don't want you to hurt yourself on account of trying to challenge me, by speaking things for which you will have to answer. You may not suppose you will, but I wouldn't want to make myself the occasion of something bad happening to you; so forgive me if I do not engage with that.
I have read many works over the decades concerning Gnostics (there were both Christian and Jewish forms) - both camps affirmed the concept of The Elect.
They use it very differently from the Calvinists, though. They use it as a synonym for "the enlightened." But the way you were using it was more like the Calvinist way...to refer to a particular group allegedly fatalistically chosen by God for salvation.

However, I'm neither Gnostic nor Calvinist, so I have a completely different view of that.
and yes i know about Calvinism, but my post was refering to the Gnostic (which you seem to know less about than myself if i may conjecture upon).
I suspect you'd be unwise to conjecture upon that.
thanks for Reply Sir!
You're most welcome, as always.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 9074
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: I'm a Theist

Post by Immanuel Can »

gaffo wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:40 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:35 am Well, the "went to Hell" part of that is debated -- it occurs in some creeds, but is not easy to substantiate Biblically-- but yes to the resurrection.
its not debated bubba.
That being said, you'll have a hard time explaining this, then: https://zondervanacademic.com/blog/did- ... -into-hell

Sure looks like a debated point to me.
gaffo
Posts: 3476
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: I'm a Theist

Post by gaffo »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:46 am
gaffo wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:22 am if he were Just, he would allow repentence from Hell, your Luke reference says God's mercy is only for the living, not the dead that repent.
Right. That's what it says.
Yes i know.
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:46 am Personally, I don't mind if you want to insult me.
Well that says you are a better man than me, i always mind being insulted.

and why i don't insult others.

have i insulted you in some way? are you saying i have?

if so, show me and i will apologies to you for my invective.

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:46 am
I have read many works over the decades concerning Gnostics (there were both Christian and Jewish forms) - both camps affirmed the concept of The Elect.
They use it very differently from the Calvinists, though. They use it as a synonym for "the enlightened." But the way you were using it was more like the Calvinist way...to refer to a particular group allegedly fatalistically chosen by God for salvation.

you are wrong in this count, i know Gnosticism moreso than you (IMO), yes "the enlightened" is correct, but that were born with the ability to become so.

others lack the ability to become enlightened and so Gnostics were Determinists.
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:46 am
and yes i know about Calvinism, but my post was refering to the Gnostic (which you seem to know less about than myself if i may conjecture upon).
I suspect you'd be unwise to conjecture upon that.
you would be correct, i do not have knowledge of Calvinism (unlike Gnosticism) and so will not disscuss thier theology - but love learning, so welcome to learn more about them from someone that knows about them.


thanks for Reply Sir!
You're most welcome, as always.
[/quote]
gaffo
Posts: 3476
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: I'm a Theist

Post by gaffo »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:49 am
gaffo wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:40 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:35 am Well, the "went to Hell" part of that is debated -- it occurs in some creeds, but is not easy to substantiate Biblically-- but yes to the resurrection.
its not debated bubba.
That being said, you'll have a hard time explaining this, then: https://zondervanacademic.com/blog/did- ... -into-hell

Sure looks like a debated point to me.
the litteral "decending into hell" may not be peter2, but the intend/thought of that is.

the fact is peter2 was written in 120 AD, when Christians were first formed as an organized group and folks were thinking "what about old Joe? he as a nice grandpappy, does he go to hell forever for having died before Christ showed up here on Earth to give me and my brothers and sisters the good news"

it was a concern, from folks that did not like the idea of them mon and dad going to hell forever, just for having been born too early for salvation.

the author addressed the concern by saying Jesus preach the good news to those in hell.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 9074
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: I'm a Theist

Post by Immanuel Can »

gaffo wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 3:08 am have i insulted you in some way? are you saying i have?
No, you've been very fair to me. I was just saying it was a safe thing to do, rather than taking on God. I have learned to be careful what I say about Him, and always try to encourage people to be careful not to cross over from questioning (which is fine) to blasphemy (which is not okay -- and will inevitably out badly for them). So out of concern for people I like, I try to tell them to be careful on that score.
i know Gnosticism moreso than you (IMO),
Possibly. It's not beyond chance. But if that's true, you must know a very great deal about it then.
yes "the enlightened" is correct, but that were born with the ability to become so.
Yes. That would be the right take on it.
others lack the ability to become enlightened and so Gnostics were Determinists.
Some were. Some were not. Some thought that you could become enlightened through the disciplines of the "Illuminated Ones." Others thought you just had to be lucky.
i do not have knowledge of Calvinism (unlike Gnosticism) and so will not disscuss thier theology - but love learning, so welcome to learn more about them from someone that knows about them.
They're basically just Determinists. Whereas Materialists say we are pre-determined by physical forces, Calvinists say God did the same job, essentially. I think both are wrong.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 9074
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: I'm a Theist

Post by Immanuel Can »

gaffo wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 3:15 am the litteral "decending into hell" may not be peter2, but the intend/thought of that is.
Well, that's the debated point.
User avatar
SpheresOfBalance
Posts: 5530
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:27 pm
Location: On a Star Dust Metamorphosis

Re: I'm a Theist

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

Theists of the day are fools. Holding on to the diatribe of such a long time past. As if they could actually know it. :lol: It just goes to show how deeply embedded their fear is. It certainly becomes easy, the further removed they are from the actual facts of the matter. Truth blurred in the annals of time. :lol: Denial becomes easy, out of sight...
gaffo
Posts: 3476
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: I'm a Theist

Post by gaffo »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 3:32 am
gaffo wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 3:08 am have i insulted you in some way? are you saying i have?
No, you've been very fair to me. I was just saying it was a safe thing to do, rather than taking on God. I have learned to be careful what I say about Him, and always try to encourage people to be careful not to cross over from questioning (which is fine) to blasphemy (which is not okay -- and will inevitably out badly for them). So out of concern for people I like, I try to tell them to be careful on that score.
thanks for clarify you were talklng me "Blasphening" against God and not you.

i thank you for helping understand your point about insulting (to whom - Him and not you).

i try not to insult folks a like, and i like you, but i do get hot headed rarely, and if i do, and insult you in the future, point it out (if I do not do see it and correct myself and mea culpa - point out i'm being a dick to you, and i will self reflect and appologize to you (for the record you have shown me the upmost respect and one man to another of goodwill - so i have no complants).

But do call me out if a stumble and lower myself to a level below what i wish (and give me a kick to my nutts - i may deserve it) - I will thank you later ;-).

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 3:32 am
i know Gnosticism moreso than you (IMO),
Possibly. It's not beyond chance. But if that's true, you must know a very great deal about it then.
yes "the enlightened" is correct, but that were born with the ability to become so.
Yes. That would be the right take on it.
others lack the ability to become enlightened and so Gnostics were Determinists.
Some were. Some were not. Some thought that you could become enlightened through the disciplines of the "Illuminated Ones." Others thought you just had to be lucky.
yes i do have a prety high knowledge of Gnostcism (its not just one religion - but 100+ sects each different, but all similar in central mindset) - all of them are of course extinct now, the Catholic Church removed the last sect around 1200 in Spain (via that fellow that said "kill them all and let God sort them out). Aberginians(sp)?

I just have a general interest in "thinking about stuff" - religions of the world (dead and living), and history as well as philospophy (and of course Politics too).


i do not have knowledge of Calvinism (unlike Gnosticism) and so will not disscuss thier theology - but love learning, so welcome to learn more about them from someone that knows about them.
They're basically just Determinists. Whereas Materialists say we are pre-determined by physical forces, Calvinists say God did the same job, essentially. I think both are wrong.
I've asked you many times now - but you prefer your anonemnity(sp) - where are you from? Canada has been my guess since last year, but you could be UK, Ausie, or Kiwi - for some reason i've always leaned toward CA via your posts.

thanks for reply!
Post Reply