Is morality objective or subjective?

[henry quirk]

"The thing you bite into is concrete, but it's not an "apple"."

Yeah, I know. 'apple' is the placeholder most english speakers assign to a particular thing of category of things. Change the placeholder and the thing remains the same (in the same way the quality we call color today and papaloo tomorrow remains the same).

#

"It's not in the light - it's in the way your brain processes the information from your retinas."

I process the information in the light apprehended by my eyes.

#

"Even IF qualia exist - they are entirely subjective. Qualia are about experiences. Colors are most definitely in your head."

Nope. The names, the assessments, the meaning I apply to the information in the light that I apprehend with my eyes is in my head, but the information, the quality, is in the light.

[Skepdick]

I don't need physics to know the coffee I'm drinkin' is real, exists, and exists independent of me. (like the quality in light we call color).

Coffee doesn't concern itself with its "realness", "existence" and "independence". Those are all human concepts.

They only exist in your head. Like color.

[Skepdick]

I process the information in the light apprehended by my eyes.

"Light" is not apprehended by your eyes. Photons strike your retina. This generates electrical impulses which your brain interprets. That is what you call "light".

Nope. The names, the assessments, the meaning I apply to the information in the light that I apprehend with my eyes is in my head, but the information, the quality, is in the light.

But "the light' is in your head! It's just the visible portion of the electromagnetic spectrum.

Other parts of the electromagnetic spectrum are "heat" - you don't see heat. You feel heat. With your skin.

[henry quirk]

"Coffee doesn't concern itself with its "existence"."

No, it just sits there, existing.

[Skepdick]

"Coffee doesn't concern itself with its "existence"."

No, it just sits there, existing.

Coffee doesn't concern itself with "sitting" either.

[henry quirk]

""Light" is not apprehended by your eyes. Photons strike your retina. This generates electrical impulses which your brain interprets. That is what you call "light"."

Half a dozen of one, six of the other.

#

"But "the light' is in your head!"

Nope, the model or reconstruction is in my head, the information I use to model or reconstruct is in the light, er, 'photons'.

[henry quirk]

"Coffee doesn't concern itself with its "existence"."

No, it just sits there, existing.

Coffee doesn't concern itself with "sitting" either.

coffee does nuthin' but exist (till i drink it and turn it to piss, then it's piss)

[Skepdick]

""Light" is not apprehended by your eyes. Photons strike your retina. This generates electrical impulses which your brain interprets. That is what you call "light"."

Half a dozen of one, six of the other.

It's the whole 9 yards actually. Because physicists aren't all that certain whether photons "exist".

Existence is tricky subject at the Quantum scale.

Nope, the model or reconstruction is in my head, the information I use to model or reconstruct is in the light, er, 'photons'.

But photons ARE "just a model". That's why it's called the Standard Model of Physics.

It may as well turn out that they don't actually exist, except as mathematical artefacts in our current understanding of the world.

[henry quirk]

and that heat exists even if i don't feel it, name it or know of it

the quality we call 'hotness' is in the heat, not my skin (and, of course, 'hotness' is also a quality possessed by certain women which, in context, absolutely can't exist without the women who possess it).

[Skepdick]

and that heat exists even if i don't feel it, name it or know of it

It doesn't... heat is energy transfer. If there's no body to transfer the energy to - there is no heat.

the quality we call 'hotness' is in the heat, not my skin

No, Henry. ALL qualities are in your head. By definition.

Physics deals only with quantities: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum

[henry quirk]

"Existence is tricky subject at the Quantum scale"

mebbe so, but between 'there' and 'here' (the human scale) the trickiness gets tamped down quite a bit.

#

"It may as well turn out that they don't actually exist, except as mathematical artefacts in our current understanding of the world."

Things exist, they exist independent of me; information about those things, intrinsic to those things, is conveyed to me by something. Big brains can rejigger the models as they like, apply whatever placeholders they like, but the foundation doesn't change (things exist, they exist independent of me; information about those things, intrinsic to those things, is conveyed to me by something).

[henry quirk]

"It doesn't... heat is energy transfer. If there's no body to transfer the energy to - there is no heat."

The information, the quality, most folks call 'hot' is in the thing, not me. My assessments, my measurements are in my head.

#

"No, Henry. ALL qualities are in your head. By definition."

No, Skep, the qualities, the information is in the thing external to me. I apprehend the info, I don't create it.

[Skepdick]

mebbe so, but between 'there' and 'here' (the human scale) the trickiness gets tamped down quite a bit.

Why? Because physics doesn't apply at human scale!

Things exist

What things, Henry? Isn't that precisely the question Physics is trying to answer?

, they exist independent of me; information about those things, intrinsic to those things, is conveyed to me by something.

Whatever information is conveyed to you - this is where "realism" falls apart.

Your eyes can process about 10^7 bits of information per second. A single strand of DNA contains 1.2*10^10 bits of information.

If the DNA of an apple was transfered to your brain via your eyes, it would take 15 minutes! And that's just one strand - what about the rest of the apple?!?

[Skepdick]

The information, the quality, most folks call 'hot' is in the thing, not me. My assessments, my measurements are in my head.

They ARE in your head - that's precisely the point I am making.

No, Skep, the qualities, the information is in the thing external to me. I apprehend the info, I don't create it.

The information is the information. Only a tiny fraction of a thing's information-identity makes its way to your perception via your senses.

If reality is made of information, your senses and brain do not have sufficient bandwidth/processing power to perceive it all.

What surfaces at your awareness is only about 2000 bits per second - that is less bandwidth than the dial-up modems we used to connect to the Internet in the 80s.

[henry quirk]

"Why? Because physics doesn't apply at human scale!"

Hell if I know.

Brief anecdote: I knew a fella who, like you was (mebbe still is) a big brain. He'd pontificate, after a few beers, on the illusory state of the world. One of his favorites was the one about matter bein' mostly empty space. When he did that, I'd smack the table hard with a fist, sayin' seems pretty fuckin' solid to me.

I know, at the deepest levels of Reality, things are queer, but up here, where I live, things aren't.

I can't explain the disparity, (you probably can: but, don't, cuz I don't care), but practically, as I move through the world, I don't have to.

#

"If the DNA of an apple was transfered to your brain via your eyes, it would take 15 minutes! And that's just one strand - what about the rest of the apple?!?"

Yeah, but I don't need all that information to recognize an apple, to eat an apple, to enjoy an apple. All I need is the lil bit of consistent, coherent, information that I get through my imperfect, finite senses, that I process in my marvelous, imperfect, finite, brain.

I don't need to dissect Reality to live in it, to successfully navigate it.