Is morality objective or subjective?

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

surreptitious57
Posts: 3938
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by surreptitious57 » Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:20 pm

Skepdick wrote:
You are pre supposing the fact / opinion distinction
No presupposition at all since a fact and an opinion are entirely different truth categories according to their definitions
An opinion is simply a statement that is expressed as a truth statement even though it may be epistemologically invalid
A fact is an actual truth statement that is epistemologically valid because it has evidence or proof to demonstrate this
Therefore opinions are subjective and facts are objective so by default there is a very clear distinction between them

Skepdick
Posts: 3691
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Skepdick » Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:29 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:20 pm
No presupposition at all since a fact and an opinion are entirely different truth categories according to their definitions.
So ignore the definitions.

surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:20 pm
An opinion is simply a statement that is expressed as a truth statement even though it may be epistemologically invalid
A fact is an actual truth statement that is epistemologically valid because it has evidence or proof to demonstrate this
Therefore opinions are subjective and facts are objective so by default there is a very clear distinction between them
If what you said is correct you should have absolutely no problem demonstrating to me that the Sky is blue.

surreptitious57
Posts: 3938
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by surreptitious57 » Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:32 pm

Skepdick wrote:
now that you have invented two sets of distinctions ( fact / opinion - assertion / statement distinction ) you are making all sort of category errors
No invention at all because these terms all have very clear and specific definitions
A fact and an opinion as defined cannot ever have the same epistemological status
An assertion with sufficient evidence or proof is a fact and one without sufficient evidence or proof is an opinion

Skepdick
Posts: 3691
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Skepdick » Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:35 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:32 pm
No invention at all because these terms all have very clear and specific definitions
So undefine them.
surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:32 pm
A fact and an opinion as defined cannot ever have the same epistemological status
To a scientist (bar any methodical errors) they have exactly the same status.
surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:32 pm
An assertion with sufficient evidence or proof is a fact and one without sufficient evidence or proof is an opinion
I am hungry.

I have sufficient evidence for it. I can offer you none whatsoever.

Is my hunger a fact or an opinion?

surreptitious57
Posts: 3938
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by surreptitious57 » Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:42 pm

Skepdick wrote:
If what you said is correct you should have absolutely no problem demonstrating to me that the sky is blue
The sky is indeed blue because that is where it happens to fall on the electromagnetic spectrum
Intersubjective consensus through the rigorous application of the scientific method confirms this
Anyone who is visually impaired may see a different colour or none at at all but everyone else will see it as blue

surreptitious57
Posts: 3938
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by surreptitious57 » Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:46 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Is my hunger a fact or an opinion
Your hunger is a fact if your body actually requires food at that particular time
It cannot be your opinion if it is a fact so the answer to that would then be no

Skepdick
Posts: 3691
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Skepdick » Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:49 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:42 pm
The sky is indeed blue because that is where it happens to fall on the electromagnetic spectrum
The electromagnetic spectrum has no notion of "colors". it deals with wavelengths and it's continuous, not discrete.
surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:42 pm
Intersubjective consensus through the rigorous application of the scientific method confirms this
IF you axiomatically accept the SI units, then you could measure the wavelengths of the sky as being between 380nm and 500nm.

surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:42 pm
Anyone who is visually impaired may see a different colour or none at at all but everyone else will see it as blue
So what color would the sky be if all scientists were visually impaired?

Skepdick
Posts: 3691
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Skepdick » Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:50 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:46 pm
Your hunger is a fact if your body actually requires food at that particular time
It cannot be your opinion if it is a fact so the answer to that would then be no
And what about your rule that facts require "evidence" and "proof"?

I have no way to prove to you that I am hungry - why do you say that my hunger is a "fact" then?

You seem to be accepting my report on trust/faith.
Last edited by Skepdick on Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

surreptitious57
Posts: 3938
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by surreptitious57 » Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:51 pm

Skepdick wrote:
To a scientist ( bar any methodical errors ) they have exactly the same status
No scientist treats facts and opinions as epistemologically equivalent as you know very well
Even a non scientist knows [ or should know ] that they are two entirely different categories

User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 6808
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm

"o what color would the sky be if all scientists were visually impaired?"

Post by henry quirk » Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:54 pm

The quality we call blue is in the light, not our heads, so...

surreptitious57
Posts: 3938
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by surreptitious57 » Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:59 pm

Skepdick wrote:
The electromagnetic spectrum has no notion of colors . it deals with wavelengths and it is continuous not discrete
The distinction between colours can be made from observing the visible light of the electromagnetic spectrum
The human eye can make such distinctions even though the spectrum deals with wavelengths and is continuous

Skepdick
Posts: 3691
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Skepdick » Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:00 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:51 pm
No scientist treats facts and opinions as epistemologically equivalent as you know very well
You are still affirming the consequent. They are epistemologically equivalent UNTIL you categorise them.

Suppose your best friend makes two assertions: X and Y. The very reason to categorise such things is because there is some utility in doing so.

What is the utility in categorising X as an opinion, but Y as a fact?
surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:51 pm
Even a non scientist knows [ or should know ] that they are two entirely different categories
You have traversed the is-ought gap.

Skepdick
Posts: 3691
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Skepdick » Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:03 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:59 pm
The distinction between colours can be made from observing the visible light of the electromagnetic spectrum
OK, so how many colors are there on the electromagnetic spectrum?
surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:59 pm
The human eye can make such distinctions even though the spectrum deals with wavelengths and is continuous
Distinctions require discrete values.

surreptitious57
Posts: 3938
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by surreptitious57 » Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:04 pm

Skepdick wrote:
So what color would the sky be if all scientists were visually impaired
That would depend upon the degree of their impairment but it would not be intersubjective
Their impairment would invalidate any attempt at objectively assessing what the colour was

Skepdick
Posts: 3691
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: "o what color would the sky be if all scientists were visually impaired?"

Post by Skepdick » Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:05 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:54 pm
The quality we call blue is in the light, not our heads, so...
Blue
Blue
Blue
Blue

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests