Do we need consciousness?

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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Skepdick
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Re: Do we need consciousness?

Post by Skepdick »

commonsense wrote: Tue Nov 26, 2019 4:19 pm May I ask what stops dt from becoming zero? If limited, how can it also be without limitation? How can it be defined as indefinite?
In the Mathematical Universe? Nothing. Mathematics doesn't concern itself with the limits of reality.
In this Universe? Planck's constant
SteveKlinko
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Re: Do we need consciousness?

Post by SteveKlinko »

commonsense wrote: Tue Nov 26, 2019 4:19 pm May I ask what stops dt from becoming zero? If limited, how can it also be without limitation? How can it be defined as indefinite?
You should think about dt->0 as being the smallest number that is greater than Zero. It is the very definition of dt->0 that stops it from being Zero. You will never be able to fully conceive of such a thing but this is what it is.
commonsense
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Re: Do we need consciousness?

Post by commonsense »

Skepdick wrote: Tue Nov 26, 2019 5:48 pm
commonsense wrote: Tue Nov 26, 2019 4:19 pm May I ask what stops dt from becoming zero? If limited, how can it also be without limitation? How can it be defined as indefinite?
In the Mathematical Universe? Nothing. Mathematics doesn't concern itself with the limits of reality.
In this Universe? Planck's constant
Thanks. This is an excellent explanation.
commonsense
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Re: Do we need consciousness?

Post by commonsense »

SteveKlinko wrote: Tue Nov 26, 2019 6:27 pm It is the very definition of dt->0 that stops it from being Zero. You will never be able to fully conceive of such a thing but this is what it is.
Nothing could be truer. Thanks for putting this into perspective for me. Of course, it is the indefinite definition that gives me the most trouble. The definition is the very thing that makes the infinitesimal indefinite.
SteveKlinko
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Re: Do we need consciousness?

Post by SteveKlinko »

commonsense wrote: Tue Nov 26, 2019 8:02 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Tue Nov 26, 2019 6:27 pm It is the very definition of dt->0 that stops it from being Zero. You will never be able to fully conceive of such a thing but this is what it is.
Nothing could be truer. Thanks for putting this into perspective for me. Of course, it is the indefinite definition that gives me the most trouble. The definition is the very thing that makes the infinitesimal indefinite.
Yes it is. Just want to add that as dt->0 then 1/dt->00 and 1/dt is stopped from being Infinity because dt is stopped from being Zero.
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bahman
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Re: Do we need consciousness?

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SteveKlinko wrote: Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:22 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:27 pm I think that dt in the limit becomes zero. The way that it becomes zero is important, like 1/N.
But dt cannot ever be exactly zero because of the absurdities we have been discussing. Mathematicians talk about the way dt approaches Zero, but not the way dt becomes Zero.
dt could be, zero, something which is neither zero nor non-zero so-called infinitesimal, and finally finite. All events coincide on the same point if dt=0 (unless the number of events is infinite since 0*infinity could be finite). dt cannot be equal to zero since our reality doesn't look like this. dt cannot be infinitesimal since a number is either non-zero or zero. dt cannot be finite too since the reality doesn't look discrete. So we are left with the case inside parents!
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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: Do we need consciousness?

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

bahman wrote: Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:42 pm There are two sorts of minds: 1) Conscious and 2) Unconscious. The question is whether we even need conscious mind when the very important task like decision is made by unconscious mind (according to Libet's experiment).
We need what ever it is that we have, else we wouldn’t have it.
commonsense
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Re: Do we need consciousness?

Post by commonsense »

SpheresOfBalance wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:29 am
bahman wrote: Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:42 pm There are two sorts of minds: 1) Conscious and 2) Unconscious. The question is whether we even need conscious mind when the very important task like decision is made by unconscious mind (according to Libet's experiment).
We need what ever it is that we have, else we wouldn’t have it.
The appendix is obsolete. Eyebrows are not necessary. 1 kidney can do the work of 2.
Dimebag
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Re: Do we need consciousness?

Post by Dimebag »

commonsense wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2019 5:09 pm
SpheresOfBalance wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:29 am
bahman wrote: Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:42 pm There are two sorts of minds: 1) Conscious and 2) Unconscious. The question is whether we even need conscious mind when the very important task like decision is made by unconscious mind (according to Libet's experiment).
We need what ever it is that we have, else we wouldn’t have it.
The appendix is obsolete. Eyebrows are not necessary. 1 kidney can do the work of 2.
There is a difference between being optimally functional and able to survive. Technically we can get by without legs, but you don’t see many people opting to amputate. Eyebrows serve an important function of expression and communication. Sure, we can text each other, but you wouldn’t go ripping out your voice box in a hurry.
commonsense
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Re: Do we need consciousness?

Post by commonsense »

SpheresOfBalance wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:29 am
There is a difference between being optimally functional and able to survive. Technically we can get by without legs, but you don’t see many people opting to amputate. Eyebrows serve an important function of expression and communication. Sure, we can text each other, but you wouldn’t go ripping out your voice box in a hurry.
I’m just saying we don’t need whatever we have. Thank you for correcting me about eyebrows.
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henry quirk
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Re: Do we need consciousness?

Post by henry quirk »

commonsense wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:21 pm
SpheresOfBalance wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:29 am
There is a difference between being optimally functional and able to survive. Technically we can get by without legs, but you don’t see many people opting to amputate. Eyebrows serve an important function of expression and communication. Sure, we can text each other, but you wouldn’t go ripping out your voice box in a hurry.
I’m just saying we don’t need whatever we have. Thank you for correcting me about eyebrows.
I won't speak as to what we need, but -- in context -- I damn well need consciousness. Without it I wouldn't be me (which is a pretty grand thing to be).

and i need my eyebrows too...they divide my mug nicely (bald head & ugly face)
SteveKlinko
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Re: Do we need consciousness?

Post by SteveKlinko »

bahman wrote: Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:12 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:22 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:27 pm I think that dt in the limit becomes zero. The way that it becomes zero is important, like 1/N.
But dt cannot ever be exactly zero because of the absurdities we have been discussing. Mathematicians talk about the way dt approaches Zero, but not the way dt becomes Zero.
dt could be, zero, something which is neither zero nor non-zero so-called infinitesimal, and finally finite. All events coincide on the same point if dt=0 (unless the number of events is infinite since 0*infinity could be finite). dt cannot be equal to zero since our reality doesn't look like this. dt cannot be infinitesimal since a number is either non-zero or zero. dt cannot be finite too since the reality doesn't look discrete. So we are left with the case inside parents!
But the important thing with all this is that taking a Discrete Time axis and letting dt->0 does not give you a Continuous Time axis because of the absurdities when dt=0. The reality is that letting dt->0 might approach a Continuous Time axis and is an approximation of a Continuous Time axis, but it never really becomes a Continuous Time axis. A Continuous Time axis is something different than a Discrete Time axis.
Skepdick
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Re: Do we need consciousness?

Post by Skepdick »

SteveKlinko wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 2:44 pm A Continuous Time axis is something different than a Discrete Time axis.
It's the Mathematical distinction between the Integers and the Real Numbers.

The Number line represents Time.
SteveKlinko
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Re: Do we need consciousness?

Post by SteveKlinko »

Skepdick wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 4:35 pm It's the Mathematical distinction between the Integers and the Real Numbers.
Exactly.
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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: Do we need consciousness?

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

commonsense wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2019 5:09 pm
SpheresOfBalance wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:29 am
bahman wrote: Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:42 pm There are two sorts of minds: 1) Conscious and 2) Unconscious. The question is whether we even need conscious mind when the very important task like decision is made by unconscious mind (according to Libet's experiment).
We need what ever it is that we have, else we wouldn’t have it.
The appendix is obsolete. Eyebrows are not necessary. 1 kidney can do the work of 2.
To deny evolution, thus time is ridiculous.
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