The hype about Self Driving Cars goes beyond Overconfidence and into the realm of outright Fraud. Things like Rain, Snow, Nighttime, Detours, Hand Signals from Cops, etc. are not workable in any Generalized way yet. Maybe they can make it work in various special situations but I don't think there will be Generalized Self Driving Cars in the lifetime of anyone alive today.Dimebag wrote: ↑Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:20 am Self driving cars are not yet at the level of human perception and have a long way to go. Road markings must be universal or they can’t tell where the lane is, some can’t see humans waiting at road crossings - Uber failed here. AI development’s greatest Achilles heel is the over confidence and lack of humility within those making it. They see human perception as an engineering problem, but it is firstly a philosophical and neuroscience problem. Understand first, then create.
Do we need consciousness?
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Re: Do we need consciousness?
Re: Do we need consciousness?
SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:39 pm Motion does not require Consciousness but intelligent maneuvering around in a complicated world sure does.
I guess you are still making up your mind on this, eh?SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:35 pm Self Driving Cars are doing Intelligent Maneuvering, but no Consciousness is involved.
Re: Do we need consciousness?
How long?
You mean like humans get confused by inconsistent/ambiguous road signs?
Or how humans take a while to unlearn habits when going from a left-hand-drive to a right-hand-drive system/vehicle?
You mean like how humans have inattentional blindness, night blindness and blind spots in our limited field of view which often the cause of accidents?
AI skeptics' greatest Achilles heel is the under confidence and excessive pride in human irreplaceability.
You have this backwards. There are no such things as "philosophical problems". Everything is an engineering problem. Towards the goal of inventing AI having neuroscientific "understanding" of the brain is worth nothing if you can't teach this 'knowledge' to a machine.
Long after we have AI that does all the mundane tasks humans hate doing, philosophers will continue to philosophize whether it is conscious or not.
Neither the world, nor engineers will actually care about the answer.
Last edited by Skepdick on Wed Nov 13, 2019 3:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Do we need consciousness?
It's not always as simple as you would like it. The Self Driving Car itself does not have Consciousness but the Programmers and Engineers that designed the Software sure do have Consciousness. It is the Software that manifests the Intelligence that the Conscious Designers created. You have to read and remember all the facts here.Skepdick wrote: ↑Wed Nov 13, 2019 1:35 pmSteveKlinko wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:39 pm Motion does not require Consciousness but intelligent maneuvering around in a complicated world sure does.I guess you are still making up your mind on this, eh?SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:35 pm Self Driving Cars are doing Intelligent Maneuvering, but no Consciousness is involved.
Re: Do we need consciousness?
Steve, if manouvering intelligently requires consciousness, how can an unconscious robot manouvre intelligently?SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Wed Nov 13, 2019 2:12 pm The Self Driving Car itself does not have Consciousness
In science - this is called falsification. You theory is junk.
Here are the facts, Steve.SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Wed Nov 13, 2019 2:12 pm but the Programmers and Engineers that designed the Software sure do have Consciousness. It is the Software that manifests the Intelligence that the Conscious Designers created. You have to read and remember all the facts here.
There was a point in your life when you didn't know how to drive a car. Somebody had to teach you how to do it.
There was a point in the robot's life it didn't know how to drive a car either. The programmers taught it how to do it.
Somebody (we call them 'driving instructors') installed the "how to drive a car" software (knowledge) in your head. Still, you were pretty terrible at first, Steve. The instructor only gave you the basics - once you passed the driving test, you were allowed to improve your driving skills (develop your own knowledge) on public roads.
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Re: Do we need consciousness?
If there is a situation in which intelligent maneuvering occurs—“Self Driving Cars are doing Intelligent Maneuvering”—without involving Consciousness—“but no Consciousness is involved,” then it follows that consciousness is not always required.Skepdick wrote: ↑Wed Nov 13, 2019 1:35 pmSteveKlinko wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:39 pm Motion does not require Consciousness but intelligent maneuvering around in a complicated world sure does.I guess you are still making up your mind on this, eh?SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:35 pm Self Driving Cars are doing Intelligent Maneuvering, but no Consciousness is involved.
If consciousness is not always required, it is not required.
If consciousness is not required, then the OP’s question has been answered—no—thus overriding the earlier statement to the contrary.
However, if consciousness is not required in all situations, this does not prove that a machine doesn’t possess consciousness.
Re: Do we need consciousness?
Any motion requires consciousness whether it is intelligent or not. My argument: Consider a change in a system, A to B. A and B cannot coexist since there would be no change, therefore, A has to vanishes before a B emerges. There is however nothing when A vanishes and nothing cannot possibly turn into B, therefore, there must exist a conscious being, mind, which experiences A and causes B.SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:53 pmWhen a Venus Flytrap snaps down and catches a fly there is a lot of Motion but I'm guessing very little Consciousness involved in that action.bahman wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:54 pmWhat is the need for any idea when any decision is made unconsciously? That is a valid question since any idea is a conscious phenomenon. Motion, of course, needs consciousness. I have an argument for that.SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:39 pm
Motion does not require Consciousness but intelligent maneuvering around in a complicated world sure does.
Re: Do we need consciousness?
Yeah. You got it.Skepdick wrote: ↑Wed Nov 13, 2019 1:35 pmSteveKlinko wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:39 pm Motion does not require Consciousness but intelligent maneuvering around in a complicated world sure does.I guess you are still making up your mind on this, eh?SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:35 pm Self Driving Cars are doing Intelligent Maneuvering, but no Consciousness is involved.
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Re: Do we need consciousness?
The programmers did not Teach the Car how to do anything, rather they Infused the Car with the algorithms to drive. You can't really say that the Car Knows how to drive anymore than you can say your Thermostat in your home knows how to keep the temperature regulated.Skepdick wrote: ↑Wed Nov 13, 2019 2:22 pmSteve, if manouvering intelligently requires consciousness, how can an unconscious robot manouvre intelligently?SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Wed Nov 13, 2019 2:12 pm The Self Driving Car itself does not have Consciousness
In science - this is called falsification. You theory is junk.
Here are the facts, Steve.SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Wed Nov 13, 2019 2:12 pm but the Programmers and Engineers that designed the Software sure do have Consciousness. It is the Software that manifests the Intelligence that the Conscious Designers created. You have to read and remember all the facts here.
There was a point in your life when you didn't know how to drive a car. Somebody had to teach you how to do it.
There was a point in the robot's life it didn't know how to drive a car either. The programmers taught it how to do it.
Somebody (we call them 'driving instructors') installed the "how to drive a car" software (knowledge) in your head. Still, you were pretty terrible at first, Steve. The instructor only gave you the basics - once you passed the driving test, you were allowed to improve your driving skills (develop your own knowledge) on public roads.
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Re: Do we need consciousness?
I'm not quite following this. Let me ask: What kind of change in the system are you referring to?bahman wrote: ↑Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:01 pmAny motion requires consciousness whether it is intelligent or not. My argument: Consider a change in a system, A to B. A and B cannot coexist since there would be no change, therefore, A has to vanishes before a B emerges. There is however nothing when A vanishes and nothing cannot possibly turn into B, therefore, there must exist a conscious being, mind, which experiences A and causes B.SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:53 pmWhen a Venus Flytrap snaps down and catches a fly there is a lot of Motion but I'm guessing very little Consciousness involved in that action.
Re: Do we need consciousness?
Think of a billiard ball moving on the table from one position to another. This is a change.SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:21 pmI'm not quite following this. Let me ask: What kind of change in the system are you referring to?bahman wrote: ↑Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:01 pmAny motion requires consciousness whether it is intelligent or not. My argument: Consider a change in a system, A to B. A and B cannot coexist since there would be no change, therefore, A has to vanishes before a B emerges. There is however nothing when A vanishes and nothing cannot possibly turn into B, therefore, there must exist a conscious being, mind, which experiences A and causes B.SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:53 pm
When a Venus Flytrap snaps down and catches a fly there is a lot of Motion but I'm guessing very little Consciousness involved in that action.
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Re: Do we need consciousness?
Wouldn’t a melting ice cube be a better example? After all, the billiard ball per se is unchanged even though its location in space has changed. Or is it fair to say that it’s location is one of the attributes that belong to it, and therefore it has changed its state as well?bahman wrote: ↑Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:05 pmThink of a billiard ball moving on the table from one position to another. This is a change.SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:21 pmI'm not quite following this. Let me ask: What kind of change in the system are you referring to?bahman wrote: ↑Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:01 pm
Any motion requires consciousness whether it is intelligent or not. My argument: Consider a change in a system, A to B. A and B cannot coexist since there would be no change, therefore, A has to vanishes before a B emerges. There is however nothing when A vanishes and nothing cannot possibly turn into B, therefore, there must exist a conscious being, mind, which experiences A and causes B.
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Re: Do we need consciousness?
So then you are looking at reality as being a series of freeze frames. The frame at State A appears then disappears and then the frame at State B appears and disappears etc. It's a Speculation that could be true. Nobody knows. Seems easier to just assume continuous movement without all the appearing and disappearing.bahman wrote: ↑Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:05 pmThink of a billiard ball moving on the table from one position to another. This is a change.SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:21 pmI'm not quite following this. Let me ask: What kind of change in the system are you referring to?bahman wrote: ↑Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:01 pm
Any motion requires consciousness whether it is intelligent or not. My argument: Consider a change in a system, A to B. A and B cannot coexist since there would be no change, therefore, A has to vanishes before a B emerges. There is however nothing when A vanishes and nothing cannot possibly turn into B, therefore, there must exist a conscious being, mind, which experiences A and causes B.
Re: Do we need consciousness?
The driving instructors didn't teach you how to do anything. Rather they infused you with the algorithms to drive.SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:16 pm The programmers did not Teach the Car how to do anything, rather they Infused the Car with the algorithms to drive.
Of course I can say it. I am saying it.SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:16 pm You can't really say that the Car Knows how to drive anymore than you can say your Thermostat in your home knows how to keep the temperature regulated.
If you can drive a car, then I can say "Steve knows how to drive a car".
If a robot can drive a car, then surely we can the same thing. "The AI knows how to drive a car"
An algorithm is the same thing as know-how. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know-how
Transferring know-how from the driving instructor's head into yours it's "teaching".
Transferring know-how from the programmer's head into the computer's memory - it's also teaching.
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Re: Do we need consciousness?
If you add a book to a Library does it mean that the Library has gotten Smarter with the knowledge and information from the book? Inanimate objects do not learn. Designers like to Anthropomorphize what Computers do but this is just a convention of Speech. Less technical people are fooled into believing that Computers are more like Humans than they are. Does the thermostat in your home "Know" how to keep the temperature regulated? Or is it actually something else when talking about Inanimate objects?Skepdick wrote: ↑Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:48 amThe driving instructors didn't teach you how to do anything. Rather they infused you with the algorithms to drive.SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:16 pm The programmers did not Teach the Car how to do anything, rather they Infused the Car with the algorithms to drive.
Of course I can say it. I am saying it.SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:16 pm You can't really say that the Car Knows how to drive anymore than you can say your Thermostat in your home knows how to keep the temperature regulated.
If you can drive a car, then I can say "Steve knows how to drive a car".
If a robot can drive a car, then surely we can the same thing. "The AI knows how to drive a car"
An algorithm is the same thing as know-how. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know-how
Transferring know-how from the driving instructor's head into yours it's "teaching".
Transferring know-how from the programmer's head into the computer's memory - it's also teaching.