My computer is sentient, you can not deny it!

So what's really going on?

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commonsense
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Re: My computer is sentient, you can not deny it!

Post by commonsense »

Belinda wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:13 pm
Skepdick wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 1:55 pm
Belinda wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:30 pm
Politically the more the individual is artificially bred and artificially programmed the less free he is to be guided by his sentience qualia. Reinforcement learning is infamous on account of indoctrination. You can train a computer as described by reinforcement learning but you cannot educate a computer because education involves acceptance of uncertainty.

At this juncture we encounter the difference between inductive and deductive logics. You can train an animal via inductive process related to cause and effect, but you cannot do this with an artificial intelligence because the sentience analogue of the AI is preset as to quantity and quality which makes its learning process faux-inductive.
So is slavery.
Computers are slaves to their programs.
commonsense
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Re: My computer is sentient, you can not deny it!

Post by commonsense »

commonsense wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:26 pm
Skepdick wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:34 am
commonsense wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:37 pm It is exactly because these assumptions cannot be proved true that the burden of proof lies on them.
You seem to be saying there are exceptions to the burden of proof, and in arguing so - attempting to shift it.

That is a logical fallacy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of ... n_of_proof
commonsense wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:37 pm However, it is not easy to convince someone to change their mind about what they see as status quo. Indeed, what they believe is status quo is simply what they believe to be the case.
Appealing to status quo is an 'argumentum ad populum' fallacy.
commonsense wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:37 pm Can you think of a practical and irrefutable way to shift the perceived burden to its rightful place?
What is its rightful place?

Intellectual honesty requires both sides of the coin. Confirming one's beliefs requires evidence. Disconfirming one's beliefs requires evidence also.
If you ignore the disconfirmation angle, you are making an error: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
Yes to all, but are there counter arguments?
Answered my own question. One could deploy the same fallacy against itself. Or in similar fashion, one against another. But exposing a fallacy for what it is should be all that is necessary to defeat it. Right?
Ginkgo
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Re: My computer is sentient, you can not deny it!

Post by Ginkgo »

Skepdick wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:00 pm
Ginkgo wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:17 am Well I guess that's the end of our discussion.
I am happy to continue as soon as you cure yourself from your religious dogma.
Nothing I have said thus far has anything to do with religion.
Skepdick
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Re: My computer is sentient, you can not deny it!

Post by Skepdick »

Ginkgo wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:23 am Nothing I have said thus far has anything to do with religion.
dogma noun a principle or set of principles laid down as incontrovertibly true.
religion noun a particular system of faith.
Skepdick wrote: What evidence would convince you that I am a philosophical zombie?
Ginkgo wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:41 am No evidence
You are dogmatic and your belief-system is based on faith. Therefore - religious.
Ginkgo
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Re: My computer is sentient, you can not deny it!

Post by Ginkgo »

Skepdick wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:32 am
Ginkgo wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:23 am Nothing I have said thus far has anything to do with religion.
dogma noun a principle or set of principles laid down as incontrovertibly true.
religion noun a particular system of faith.
Skepdick wrote: What evidence would convince you that I am a philosophical zombie?
Ginkgo wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:41 am No evidence
You are dogmatic and your belief-system is based on faith. Therefore - religious.
Nonsense, I don't have a dogmatic belief system, all my arguments are based on fact.
Skepdick
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Re: My computer is sentient, you can not deny it!

Post by Skepdick »

Ginkgo wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:56 am Nonsense, I don't have a dogmatic belief system, all my arguments are based on fact.
Enter cognitive dissonance.

If your "facts" are not falsifiable by new evidence/information - you are religious.
Ginkgo
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Re: My computer is sentient, you can not deny it!

Post by Ginkgo »

Skepdick wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:57 am
Ginkgo wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:56 am Nonsense, I don't have a dogmatic belief system, all my arguments are based on fact.
Enter cognitive dissonance.

If your "facts" are not falsifiable by new evidence/information - you are religious.
Of course they are falsifiable, but to date you have not produce and new evidence to disprove. All you have said is that you are a epistemic zombie( what ever that means).
The burden of proof is with you.
Skepdick
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Re: My computer is sentient, you can not deny it!

Post by Skepdick »

Ginkgo wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2019 1:05 am Of course they are falsifiable, but to date you have not produce and new evidence to disprove. All you have said is that you are a epistemic zombie.
The burden of proof is with you.
You want me to prove that I don't know if I am a philosophical zombie?

Sure. Explain to us how you go about proving a negative claim.
Last edited by Skepdick on Fri Nov 15, 2019 1:17 am, edited 2 times in total.
Ginkgo
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Re: My computer is sentient, you can not deny it!

Post by Ginkgo »

Skepdick wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2019 1:06 am
Ginkgo wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2019 1:05 am Of course they are falsifiable, but to date you have not produce and new evidence to disprove. All you have said is that you are a epistemic zombie.
The burden of proof is with you.
You want me to prove that I don't know if I am a philosophical zombie?

Sure. Explain to us how you go about proving a negative.
I want you to prove that you are a philosophical zombie.
Skepdick
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Re: My computer is sentient, you can not deny it!

Post by Skepdick »

Ginkgo wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2019 1:10 am I want you to prove that you are a philosophical zombie.
OK. What evidence would convince you that I am a philosophical zombie?

Tell me exactly what it is that you expect me to say or do that will convince you and I will see if I can do it.
Ginkgo
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Re: My computer is sentient, you can not deny it!

Post by Ginkgo »

Skepdick wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2019 1:10 am
Ginkgo wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2019 1:10 am I want you to prove that you are a philosophical zombie.
OK. What evidence would convince you that I am a philosophical zombie?

Tell me exactly what it is that you expect me to say or do that will convince you and I will see if I can do it.
I have an appointment so I will have to leave now. I will get back to our discussion at a later date.
Skepdick
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Re: My computer is sentient, you can not deny it!

Post by Skepdick »

commonsense wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:26 pm Yes to all, but are there counter arguments?
My counter-argument is a question.

Why are you burdening yourself proving anything to anybody but yourself?

And perhaps even: Why doesn't philosophy ever talk about the burden of disproof?
Ginkgo
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Re: My computer is sentient, you can not deny it!

Post by Ginkgo »

Skepdick wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2019 1:10 am
Ginkgo wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2019 1:10 am I want you to prove that you are a philosophical zombie.
OK. What evidence would convince you that I am a philosophical zombie?

Tell me exactly what it is that you expect me to say or do that will convince you and I will see if I can do it.
OK, you have convinced me that you are a philosophical zombie. So, what is it like to be a human with no subjective experience?
Skepdick
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Re: My computer is sentient, you can not deny it!

Post by Skepdick »

Ginkgo wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2019 11:35 am OK, you have convinced me that you are a philosophical zombie.
OK, great!

So you are rescinding your claim that philosophical zombies are fictitious then?
Ginkgo wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2019 11:35 am So, what is it like to be a human with no subjective experience?
Isn't that the leading question of ontology? What sort of answer are you expecting to hear?

This mode of being is all I know and all that I could possibly know. I can't tell you what it's like relative to any other modes of being - it's a question that has no meaningful answer.

Surely you remember me saying this?
Ginkgo wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:55 am You are projecting an ontology. The same error every logocentrist makes.
roydop
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Re: My computer is sentient, you can not deny it!

Post by roydop »

Zelebg wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:00 am What if I say a PC becomes conscious the moment you connect it with a monitor and it displays some content. Then I can say, look, there it is its qualia right there on the display, that's what it thinks, that's what it feels. It does not feel like we do in terms of pain and desire, but in terms of geometry of overlapping densities of magnetic and electric fields, however is that supposed to feel.

How can you deny this sentience?
Sentience is the substratum/reality on which the world manifests, it isn't produced.

A machine will not take itself to be separate from everything else (and therefore have an identity) until you are looking through it's camera.
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