Do we need consciousness?

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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bahman
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Do we need consciousness?

Post by bahman »

There are two sorts of minds: 1) Conscious and 2) Unconscious. The question is whether we even need conscious mind when the very important task like decision is made by unconscious mind (according to Libet's experiment).
Zelebg
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Re: Do we need consciousness?

Post by Zelebg »

bahman wrote: Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:42 pm There are two sorts of minds: 1) Conscious and 2) Unconscious. The question is whether we even need conscious mind when the very important task like decision is made by unconscious mind (according to Libet's experiment).
Yes, so we can learn, which is how we "make choices". In other words, yes, so we can have "free will".
roydop
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Re: Do we need consciousness?

Post by roydop »

bahman wrote: Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:42 pm There are two sorts of minds: 1) Conscious and 2) Unconscious. The question is whether we even need conscious mind when the very important task like decision is made by unconscious mind (according to Libet's experiment).
There is no need for the "I... (did, will, am, etc)". Actions based upon the "I" thought are what creates the illusion of the ego "your name here." The superconscious/universal mind (wave function) is what is in control, not the egoic thought-based mind.
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bahman
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Re: Do we need consciousness?

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Zelebg wrote: Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:50 am
bahman wrote: Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:42 pm There are two sorts of minds: 1) Conscious and 2) Unconscious. The question is whether we even need conscious mind when the very important task like decision is made by unconscious mind (according to Libet's experiment).
Yes, so we can learn, which is how we "make choices". In other words, yes, so we can have "free will".
How do you know that we need consciousness to learn? An AI is not conscious yet it learns.
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bahman
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Re: Do we need consciousness?

Post by bahman »

roydop wrote: Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:15 pm
bahman wrote: Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:42 pm There are two sorts of minds: 1) Conscious and 2) Unconscious. The question is whether we even need conscious mind when the very important task like decision is made by unconscious mind (according to Libet's experiment).
There is no need for the "I... (did, will, am, etc)". Actions based upon the "I" thought are what creates the illusion of the ego "your name here." The superconscious/universal mind (wave function) is what is in control, not the egoic thought-based mind.
There should be one conscious experience if there is a universal mind. That, however, is not true.
roydop
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Re: Do we need consciousness?

Post by roydop »

bahman wrote: Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:50 pm
roydop wrote: Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:15 pm
bahman wrote: Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:42 pm There are two sorts of minds: 1) Conscious and 2) Unconscious. The question is whether we even need conscious mind when the very important task like decision is made by unconscious mind (according to Libet's experiment).
There is no need for the "I... (did, will, am, etc)". Actions based upon the "I" thought are what creates the illusion of the ego "your name here." The superconscious/universal mind (wave function) is what is in control, not the egoic thought-based mind.
There should be one conscious experience if there is a universal mind. That, however, is not true.
You only believe it to not be true because you have not yet awoken. All of those thoughts are projecting an illusion. Achieve effortless thought free Awareness and you will see.
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bahman
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Re: Do we need consciousness?

Post by bahman »

roydop wrote: Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:43 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:50 pm
roydop wrote: Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:15 pm

There is no need for the "I... (did, will, am, etc)". Actions based upon the "I" thought are what creates the illusion of the ego "your name here." The superconscious/universal mind (wave function) is what is in control, not the egoic thought-based mind.
There should be one conscious experience if there is a universal mind. That, however, is not true.
You only believe it to not be true because you have not yet awoken. All of those thoughts are projecting an illusion. Achieve effortless thought free Awareness and you will see.
So, you can read my thoughts? I mean, if you can achieve a state of mind which you have universal consciousness then you are aware of everything including my thoughts.
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henry quirk
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Re: Do we need consciousness?

Post by henry quirk »

bahman wrote: Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:42 pm There are two sorts of minds: 1) Conscious and 2) Unconscious. The question is whether we even need conscious mind when the very important task like decision is made by unconscious mind (according to Libet's experiment).
https://mindmatters.ai/2019/09/was-famo
Zelebg
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Re: Do we need consciousness?

Post by Zelebg »

roydop wrote: Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:15 pm There is no need for the "I... (did, will, am, etc)".
"Need" only makes sense if there is a goal that need is relative to.

For example, we do need "self" in order to be sentient.

Actions based upon the "I" thought are what creates the illusion of the ego
How can you feel pain, desire, taste or smell, if there is no "you" to feel it?
Zelebg
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Re: Do we need consciousness?

Post by Zelebg »

bahman wrote: Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:47 pm
How do you know that we need consciousness to learn? An AI is not conscious yet it learns.
It's just the answer that makes most sense considering everything. If you mean neural networks type of AI, then you can consider the network itself to be subconsciousness and the learning input feed that goes into it as function of consciousness. Meaning that in the case of AI humans, in a way, provide their consciousness for it to learn.
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Re: Do we need consciousness?

Post by roydop »

Zelebg wrote: Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:50 pm
roydop wrote: Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:15 pm There is no need for the "I... (did, will, am, etc)".
"Need" only makes sense if there is a goal that need is relative to.

For example, we do need "self" in order to be sentient.

Actions based upon the "I" thought are what creates the illusion of the ego
How can you feel pain, desire, taste or smell, if there is no "you" to feel it?
I experience phenomena as if watching a movie, or as in a lucid dream. Sensations are experienced but there is a level of detachment from them. In the same way that one may react to a character in a movie being stabbed in the eye, there also exists the possibility to not be affected. But most people go to the movies to be affected. What I'm doing at this forum is standing up in the middle of the theater and reminding everyone that THIS is a movie.

Most don't believe. Imagine that.
roydop
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Re: Do we need consciousness?

Post by roydop »

bahman wrote: Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:39 pm
roydop wrote: Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:43 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:50 pm
There should be one conscious experience if there is a universal mind. That, however, is not true.
You only believe it to not be true because you have not yet awoken. All of those thoughts are projecting an illusion. Achieve effortless thought free Awareness and you will see.
So, you can read my thoughts? I mean, if you can achieve a state of mind which you have universal consciousness then you are aware of everything including my thoughts.
I'm not sure why you would assume this.

Again, you will not "get" what I'm relating to you until you can rest in thought free awareness.
Zelebg
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Re: Do we need consciousness?

Post by Zelebg »

roydop wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:24 pm I experience phenomena as if watching a movie, or as in a lucid dream.
Are you saying watching a movie doesn't seem to be subjective experience to you?
roydop
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Re: Do we need consciousness?

Post by roydop »

Zelebg wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2019 7:45 pm
roydop wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:24 pm I experience phenomena as if watching a movie, or as in a lucid dream.
Are you saying watching a movie doesn't seem to be subjective experience to you?
I'm saying that I experience this world as I would a movie.
commonsense
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Re: Do we need consciousness?

Post by commonsense »

bahman wrote: Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:42 pm There are two sorts of minds: 1) Conscious and 2) Unconscious. The question is whether we even need conscious mind when the very important task like decision is made by unconscious mind (according to Libet's experiment).
The question is do we need consciousness, but of primary importance is to know for what purpose, or goal, are we asking.

We do not need consciousness to survive.

It doesn’t take consciousness to learn that food relieves hunger, nor that a coconut tree contains food.

It doesn’t take consciousness to withdraw from a painful stimulus, to breathe, circulate blood, eliminate waste or procreate.

We need consciousness to enjoy living a good life.

Merely to survive falls short of our capabilities. Without consciousness we could not read a novel, paint a picture or compose a symphony.

We need consciousness to appreciate art, emotions, language and qualia in general.
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