The Subconscious Fear of Death - the Root of Theism

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Veritas Aequitas
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Re: The Subconscious Fear of Death - the Root of Theism

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Nov 02, 2019 2:31 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:15 am My explanation above is very rational.
Nah, not so much. :wink:
Agree? if disagree, why?
Disagree. Because this argument is so very bad that it could be used to argue for absolutely anything....even arguments as silly as this one (which I can't believe you bothered to try to make rational, actually.)
"Why do people use household forks? Because of fear of death. I know they think it's to keep their hands clean, and to pick up food -- but they just don't know, because subconsciously, they want to have a weapon in their hands to fight off the Grim Reaper, in case he shows up.

My explanation above is very rational."
:D

There's nothing rational about this pattern of argument. When an argument works for every possible proposition equally, then it 'works' for nothing in particular. But anyone can see that.
My original response;
viewtopic.php?p=431061#p431061
I explained in detail how all human actions are reducible to the three main drives of a human being.

Your is not a proper counter argument.
Give me the details on why my points on each example you provided are not valid?
You're only objecting because you fear death. And losing a logical argument would make you feel mortal. I know you think you have a point, but subconsciously, you just fear death. And I can prove it, because the subconscious exists, and because fear of death exists. So you're just afraid.

My explanation is very rational. :D
I have not deny as with ALL humans, DNA wise my brain/mind is embedded with an instinctual fear of death, i.e. to avoid premature death. Therefore, yes, subconsciously there is a subliminal 'fear of death' within my subconscious mind.

However in my case, I have relied upon my other faculties to modulate the manifestation of unease, anxieties, Angst, and the likes, arising from the above subliminal fear of death.
In your case, you had desperately cling to an illusion [God] to relieve the emerging unease, anxieties, Angst, and the likes, arising from the above subliminal fear of death.

I have explained, by default of nature with an inherent program, I do not fear death consciously, if any, it is only momentarily.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: The Subconscious Fear of Death - the Root of Theism

Post by Immanuel Can »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:00 am Your is not a proper counter argument.
Give me the details on why?
I disagree. The whole form of your argument was fallacious. It was an argument so bad it can easily be reproduced and parodied, but nothing can be done to salvage it.
However in my case, I have relied upon my other faculties
So you imagine that you alone have the self-control to "rely upon other faculties," but Antony Flew didn't, and neither does anybody else? :shock: And you don't think that's just a little hubristic?
In your case, you had desperately cling to an illusion to relieve the emerging unease, anxieties, Angst, and the likes, arising from the above subliminal fear of death.

I can only tell you I find this not only completely wrong, but also quite risible. Sorry, it's just not my case. And I have Flew's own testimony that it wasn't his either, and the testimonies of many others that it was not theirs.

I can see you love your theory so much you're not going to give it up. Too bad it's just wrong. That's all one can say.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: The Subconscious Fear of Death - the Root of Theism

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Scott Mayers wrote: Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:19 pm The OP is partly correct. The 'fear' if anything, is about ANY suffering. We don't 'know' death from being within it except as second-hand experience of losing those we knew personally who have died. The 'fear' is not necessarily of death but of suffering. This is what the suicidal person is opting to rid themselves of ....their suffering.
Note my edited argument;
P1 To ensure one survive with the will-to-live one has avoid death.
P2 To avoid death, one has to fear death [subliminally or consciously].
C3 Therefore to survive with the will-to-live, one has to fear death [subliminally or consciously].
  • P1. To survive with the will-to-live, one has to fear death [subliminally or consciously]. C3 above
    P2. To fear and avoid death, all human are programmed with pain circuits.
    P3. The pain circuits generate a feeling of sufferings.
From the above, to fear and avoid death preceded sufferings.
So fear is of death, that give rise to sufferings.
To avoid sufferings, the theists cling to a God [illusory] who promises escape from permanent death to eternal life.
This promise of eternal life immediately relieves them of sufferings [Angst].

A person who committed suicide did not do it due to sufferings but rather his will-to-live was weakened due to mental issues with the neural circuit. Thus the person has lost his will-to-live and to counter the sufferings like the majority.

All human actions are reducible to 3 basic grounds in the following order and priority;
  • 1. Subliminal fear of death in the subconscious mind - note, not conscious mind.
    2. The drive to procreate and produce the next generation
    3. The drive for morality and wisdom [philosophy-proper].
Check whether any of your other proposals can bypass the above?
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: The Subconscious Fear of Death - the Root of Theism

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:12 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:00 am Your is not a proper counter argument.
Give me the details on why?
I disagree. The whole form of your argument was fallacious. It was an argument so bad it can easily be reproduced and parodied, but nothing can be done to salvage it.
Show me line by line where my argument is fallacious?
I have already explained why your change from theists [majority] to [a]theists [minority] don't work.
However in my case, I have relied upon my other faculties
So you imagine that you alone have the self-control to "rely upon other faculties," but Antony Flew didn't, and neither does anybody else? :shock: And you don't think that's just a little hubristic?
It is not me alone.

Note I mentioned the following in the OP;
OP wrote:This is where Buddhism-proper comes in to dig into the ultimate root cause, i.e. identify the subliminal fear of death as reflected in the Buddha Story and introduce the effective solutions as propounded by the Buddha in the 4NT and 8FP with its core principles.
Note there are other spiritual paths that introduce similar solutions
.

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:12 am
In your case, you had desperately cling to an illusion to relieve the emerging unease, anxieties, Angst, and the likes, arising from the above subliminal fear of death.

I can only tell you I find this not only completely wrong, but also quite risible. Sorry, it's just not my case. And I have Flew's own testimony that it wasn't his either, and the testimonies of many others that it was not theirs.

I can see you love your theory so much you're not going to give it up. Too bad it's just wrong. That's all one can say.
In the case of theists, they are like a drowning person in the middle of the wide and deep ocean cling desperately to branch just enough to keep them afloat where the slightest negative change will send them drowned.
This is why at the EXTREME, theists will kill those who are perceive as a threat to their faith [security blanket] where the ultimate root cause is the subliminal fear of death.
You and Flew may be at the other end of the extreme with no tendency for evil and violent acts, but the ultimate root cause is the same.

I have justified my argument [hypothesis] with sound justifications.
Since we are in a philosophy forum, simply brushing off my argument is not proper. What is proper is you bring your counter arguments which I look forward to, nothing personal.
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Re: The Subconscious Fear of Death - the Root of Theism

Post by Age »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:41 am
Age wrote: Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:49 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:15 am
The driving force of life is
A. - ensuring the continuation of the species, in this case human species.

This driving force is supported by two main driving forces, i.e.
  • 1. To avoid premature death to perform 2, thus the fear of death [more subliminal than conscious].

    2. To procreate and produce the next generations.

    3. To act rationally, morally and wisely
Thus give me any human act and I can reduced them to 1, 2 or 3 above to facilitate the continuation of the human species.
Smoking tobacco.
When a person first tried smoking tobacco, there is an element of curiosity or going with the crowd, etc.
These activities are reducible to the fear of death.
Curiosity is a trait that is positive in discovering greater knowledge to avoid death, which is trigger subliminally by the fear of death.
Going with a the crowd is also positive to survival to avoid death.

When the person is addicted to tobacco [nicotine] that has an immediate effect in soothing the unease and anxieties that emerged from the subliminal fear of death.

Suicide is due to damage in the normal neural wiring that drive a person to survive at all costs.

However theistic and ideological suicide bombers are different.
A theistic suicide bomber is first driven by an existential crisis [from subliminal fear of death] to cling to a theistic ideology that promise eternal life, thus soothe the existential crisis.
An ideological theist is one who has entered into a contract with God to comply with the contractual terms stipulated by God, in exchange for a promise of eternal life.
Thus where the contractual terms included the offer to be martyred, i.e. by suicide bomber and that earthly life is secondary, the theist is merely doing his divine duty in accordance to the terms of the contract.
So, this is your so called "logic" here "veritas aequitas", and correct me if I am wrong. You say, the act of 'smoking tobacco', which is a known cause of premature death, is done "to avoid a premature death", correct?

Also, your ability to twist absolutely any thing around in order to 'try to' coincide with, and maintain, your pre-existing BELIEFS never ceases to amaze me.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: The Subconscious Fear of Death - the Root of Theism

Post by Immanuel Can »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Nov 03, 2019 4:59 am I have already explained why your change from theists [majority] to [a]theists [minority] don't work.
You explained very illogically, then; because Deists are a vanishingly small minority, far smaller than Atheists, even...and yet you expected your argument to explain Antony Flew.

If minorities don't count, and therefore you get to excuse Atheism, then you also have to excuse the Deists. But as it is, the argument is just bad. It might well be the case that some minority does, indeed, fear death and let that motivate all their decisions. So being a minority will not exempt them, if that is true; but it will also not convict them, if it is false.

In short, your "explanation" is so bad it can't really count for any group. To show it true, you would need sociological proof, not speculations.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:12 am
In your case, you had desperately cling to an illusion to relieve the emerging unease, anxieties, Angst, and the likes, arising from the above subliminal fear of death.

I can only tell you I find this not only completely wrong, but also quite risible. Sorry, it's just not my case. And I have Flew's own testimony that it wasn't his either, and the testimonies of many others that it was not theirs.

I can see you love your theory so much you're not going to give it up. Too bad it's just wrong. That's all one can say.
In the case of theists, they are like a drowning person in the middle of the wide and deep ocean cling desperately to branch just enough to keep them afloat where the slightest negative change will send them drowned.
I can see it's somehow important to you to be able to think that. I suppose, maybe, it is your reason for being able to tell yourself that they are not healthy individuals psychologically, and thus their differences with you are not something you have to take seriously. And I can get why you'd want to think that, if that's the case...it's very comforting.

I can only say that it remains untrue, no matter how comforting you're finding it to think.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: The Subconscious Fear of Death - the Root of Theism

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

A relevant post to the above;
henry quirk wrote: Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:24 pm A. DNA wise all humans are programmed to strive to survive with a will-to-live at all costs.

Humans want to live.

P1 To ensure one survive with the will-to-live one has avoid death.

To live, a human must avoid dying.

P2 To avoid death, one has to fear death [subliminally or consciously].

To avoid dying, a human must want to live.

C3 Therefore to survive with the will-to-live, one has to fear death [subliminally or consciously].

Therefore to live, a human must want to live.
Your P2 To avoid dying, a human must want to live.
is circular.

To avoid dying humans are programmed with various sub-programs, e.g. the impulse to breathe, the hunger drive, the need for security, etc. Then we have fundamental instinctual fears and emotional fear. There are many other sub-program algorith that drive the human to avoid deaths.

My P2 included only 'fear of death' as a supporting premise that it is this fear of death that drive humans to religions [theistic and non-theistic].

Thus my argument [note changes],
  • A. DNA wise all humans are programmed to strive to survive with a will-to-live at all costs till the inevitable or an instinctual trade off.

    P1 To ensure one survive with the will-to-live one has avoid death.

    P2 To avoid death, one is programmed to fear death [subliminally or consciously].

    C3 Therefore to survive with the will-to-live, one has to fear death [subliminally or consciously].
I mentioned above;
My P2 included only 'fear of death' as a supporting premise that it is this fear of death that drive humans to religions [theistic and non-theistic].

The above conclusion is a premise to the root cause of all religions [theistic and non-theistic].
  • 1. To survive with the will-to-live, one is programmed instinctively to fear death
    2. The instinctive fear of death generate terrible existential pains.
    3. Religions provide instant relief to the existential pains
    4. Therefore the root cause of religions is from the programmed fear of death.
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Re: The Subconscious Fear of Death - the Root of Theism

Post by Age »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:32 am A relevant post to the above;
henry quirk wrote: Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:24 pm A. DNA wise all humans are programmed to strive to survive with a will-to-live at all costs.

Humans want to live.

P1 To ensure one survive with the will-to-live one has avoid death.

To live, a human must avoid dying.

P2 To avoid death, one has to fear death [subliminally or consciously].

To avoid dying, a human must want to live.

C3 Therefore to survive with the will-to-live, one has to fear death [subliminally or consciously].

Therefore to live, a human must want to live.
Your P2 To avoid dying, a human must want to live.
is circular.

To avoid dying humans are programmed with various sub-programs, e.g. the impulse to breathe, the hunger drive, the need for security, etc. Then we have fundamental instinctual fears and emotional fear. There are many other sub-program algorith that drive the human to avoid deaths.

My P2 included only 'fear of death' as a supporting premise that it is this fear of death that drive humans to religions [theistic and non-theistic].

Thus my argument [note changes],
  • A. DNA wise all humans are programmed to strive to survive with a will-to-live at all costs till the inevitable or an instinctual trade off.

    P1 To ensure one survive with the will-to-live one has avoid death.

    P2 To avoid death, one is programmed to fear death [subliminally or consciously].

    C3 Therefore to survive with the will-to-live, one has to fear death [subliminally or consciously].
I mentioned above;
My P2 included only 'fear of death' as a supporting premise that it is this fear of death that drive humans to religions [theistic and non-theistic].

The above conclusion is a premise to the root cause of all religions [theistic and non-theistic].
  • 1. To survive with the will-to-live, one is programmed instinctively to fear death
    2. The instinctive fear of death generate terrible existential pains.
    3. Religions provide instant relief to the existential pains
    4. Therefore the root cause of religions is from the programmed fear of death.
As I have said earlier, you will twist any thing around to fit in with you pre-existing beliefs.

One does NOT 'have to' "fear death" to just want to keep living and surviving.

Having a will-to-live does NOT necessitate a fear-of-death at all.

One can just accept death, as being a natural part of life, and can just keep wanting to live without ever fearing death at all.

The fact is there is NOTHING to fear any way. So fearing death is NOT necessary to just having the will to live.

Choosing to live, over choosing to die, is NOT because of a fear of death but rather because deep down most people KNOW which one is far more exhilarating. So, most choose to keep on living.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: The Subconscious Fear of Death - the Root of Theism

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Age wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:53 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:32 am A relevant post to the above;
henry quirk wrote: Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:24 pm A. DNA wise all humans are programmed to strive to survive with a will-to-live at all costs.

Humans want to live.

P1 To ensure one survive with the will-to-live one has avoid death.

To live, a human must avoid dying.

P2 To avoid death, one has to fear death [subliminally or consciously].

To avoid dying, a human must want to live.

C3 Therefore to survive with the will-to-live, one has to fear death [subliminally or consciously].

Therefore to live, a human must want to live.
Your P2 To avoid dying, a human must want to live.
is circular.

To avoid dying humans are programmed with various sub-programs, e.g. the impulse to breathe, the hunger drive, the need for security, etc. Then we have fundamental instinctual fears and emotional fear. There are many other sub-program algorith that drive the human to avoid deaths.

My P2 included only 'fear of death' as a supporting premise that it is this fear of death that drive humans to religions [theistic and non-theistic].

Thus my argument [note changes],
  • A. DNA wise all humans are programmed to strive to survive with a will-to-live at all costs till the inevitable or an instinctual trade off.

    P1 To ensure one survive with the will-to-live one has avoid death.

    P2 To avoid death, one is programmed to fear death [subliminally or consciously].

    C3 Therefore to survive with the will-to-live, one has to fear death [subliminally or consciously].
I mentioned above;
My P2 included only 'fear of death' as a supporting premise that it is this fear of death that drive humans to religions [theistic and non-theistic].

The above conclusion is a premise to the root cause of all religions [theistic and non-theistic].
  • 1. To survive with the will-to-live, one is programmed instinctively to fear death
    2. The instinctive fear of death generate terrible existential pains.
    3. Religions provide instant relief to the existential pains
    4. Therefore the root cause of religions is from the programmed fear of death.
As I have said earlier, you will twist any thing around to fit in with you pre-existing beliefs.

One does NOT 'have to' "fear death" to just want to keep living and surviving.

Having a will-to-live does NOT necessitate a fear-of-death at all.
I did not state 'fear of death' is the ONLY means to keep living and surviving.
The fear of death is one inherent instinct to avoid death, and fear is one instinct to avoid death.
One can just accept death, as being a natural part of life, and can just keep wanting to live without ever fearing death at all.

The fact is there is NOTHING to fear any way. So fearing death is NOT necessary to just having the will to live.

Choosing to live, over choosing to die, is NOT because of a fear of death but rather because deep down most people KNOW which one is far more exhilarating. So, most choose to keep on living.
You are ignorant of what 'fear' really represents;
  • Fear processing in the brain
    Many experiments have been done to find out how the brain interprets stimuli and how animals develop fear responses. The emotion, fear, has been hard-wired into almost every individual, due to its vital role in the survival of the individual. Researchers have found that fear is established unconsciously and that the amygdala is involved with fear conditioning.
Whether you like it or not, all humans will be instinctively, upon reception of the relevant stimuli [internally or externally] triggered with fears unconsciously as one of the means to avoid death.
surreptitious57
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Re: The Subconscious Fear of Death - the Root of Theism

Post by surreptitious57 »

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
In the case of theists they are like a drowning person in the middle of the wide and deep ocean cling desperately to branch just enough to keep them afloat where the slightest negative change will send them drowned

This is why at the EXTREME theists will kill those who are perceive as a threat to their faith [ security blanket ]
where the ultimate root cause is the subliminal fear of death
Your first statement is false because many theists retain their belief while suffering far more than just the slightest negative change
Indeed it is that belief that actually helps rather than hinders them when they are suffering that much

Extremists kill because they are psychologically disturbed but this is not exclusive to only those of faith
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Re: The Subconscious Fear of Death - the Root of Theism

Post by surreptitious57 »

Age wrote:
Having a will to live does NOT necessitate a fear of death at all

One can just accept death as being a natural part of life and can just keep wanting to live without ever fearing death at all

The fact is there is NOTHING to fear any way So fearing death is NOT necessary to just having the will to live
There is nothing to fear about death because that is not a state one can actually experience
Because of this and because of its inevitability the logical position is to simply accept death
And so I have no fear of death at all as that to me would simply be a waste of mental energy
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: The Subconscious Fear of Death - the Root of Theism

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

surreptitious57 wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:04 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
In the case of theists they are like a drowning person in the middle of the wide and deep ocean cling desperately to branch just enough to keep them afloat where the slightest negative change will send them drowned

This is why at the EXTREME theists will kill those who are perceive as a threat to their faith [ security blanket ]
where the ultimate root cause is the subliminal fear of death
Your first statement is false because many theists retain their belief while suffering far more than just the slightest negative change
Indeed it is that belief that actually helps rather than hinders them when they are suffering that much
It is the belief in God which is like a man in deep water suddenly found branch then grabbing on to the branch that saved him from drowning but only just enough to enable to keep his head above water.
Some theists may be grabbing to a larger branch than the rest.
This is why those grabbing a smaller branch will even kill if another is trying to take the branch away.
Extremists kill because they are psychologically disturbed but this is not exclusive to only those of faith
All extremist killers must be dealt with.
This is a religious forum so we keep it to those of faith.

Yes, religious extremist killed because they are psychological disturbed.
But what is critical is whether they are influenced directly by their religious texts or not.
From my research, the ideology of Islam is the ONLY religion that command their believers to war against and kill non-Muslims.
Therefore we should get rid of the ideology of Islam and there will be no more religious driven evil and violent acts.

Other religious extremists [Buddhism, Christianity, Jainism, etc.] killed because they are psychologically disturbed via the their own free will and evil nature. Their killing has nothing to do with the religion itself because the religious never command believer to kill non-believers.
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Re: The Subconscious Fear of Death - the Root of Theism

Post by Age »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:26 am
surreptitious57 wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:04 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
In the case of theists they are like a drowning person in the middle of the wide and deep ocean cling desperately to branch just enough to keep them afloat where the slightest negative change will send them drowned

This is why at the EXTREME theists will kill those who are perceive as a threat to their faith [ security blanket ]
where the ultimate root cause is the subliminal fear of death
Your first statement is false because many theists retain their belief while suffering far more than just the slightest negative change
Indeed it is that belief that actually helps rather than hinders them when they are suffering that much
It is the belief in God which is like a man in deep water suddenly found branch then grabbing on to the branch that saved him from drowning but only just enough to enable to keep his head above water.
Some theists may be grabbing to a larger branch than the rest.
This is why those grabbing a smaller branch will even kill if another is trying to take the branch away.
Extremists kill because they are psychologically disturbed but this is not exclusive to only those of faith
All extremist killers must be dealt with.
This is a religious forum so we keep it to those of faith.

Yes, religious extremist killed because they are psychological disturbed.
But what is critical is whether they are influenced directly by their religious texts or not.
From my research, the ideology of Islam is the ONLY religion that command their believers to war against and kill non-Muslims.
Therefore we should get rid of the ideology of Islam and there will be no more religious driven evil and violent acts.

Other religious extremists [Buddhism, Christianity, Jainism, etc.] killed because they are psychologically disturbed via the their own free will and evil nature. Their killing has nothing to do with the religion itself because the religious never command believer to kill non-believers.
To me, killing non-believers, in the koran, is NOT an evil nor violent act.

The ideology of islam is to be peaceful, and to be a muslim is just to be a follower of, or be led by, peace. The command in the koran to 'war' against those who are non-muslim, or non-followers of peace, is to 'kill' those who do not follow peace. To 'kill' is to just kill of the 'person' who does not follow peace, which is a completely non violent and non evil act. This just involves helping these people to change, for the better.
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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk »

"To me, killing non-believers, in the koran, is NOT an evil nor violent act."

The non-believer (me) disagrees.

#

"This just involves helping these people to change, for the better."

The unbeliever (me) who is pretty satisfied with the way he is, sez: mind your own business, bud. You wanna take a knee to ALLAH, then by all means, take a knee. Me: I don't wanna, don't haffta, ain't gonna.

This applies across the board, to anything you care to name. We don't haffta like each other, or understand each other, or agree with each other, we may think the other other is just friggin' crazy, but: as long as we leave each other be, we shouldn't have any problems, yeah?
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Re: Age

Post by Age »

henry quirk wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2019 5:05 pm "To me, killing non-believers, in the koran, is NOT an evil nor violent act."

The non-believer (me) disagrees.

What are (you) non-believing in exactly?

#

"This just involves helping these people to change, for the better."

The unbeliever (me)

But what are (you) unbelieving exactly?

who is pretty satisfied with the way he is, sez: mind your own business, bud.

So, you think you can tell me what to do, but you expect me to not tell you what to do, is this correct?

If yes, then this would be rather contradictory and hypocritical.

If no, then do not tell me what to do.

You wanna take a knee to ALLAH, then by all means, take a knee. Me: I don't wanna, don't haffta, ain't gonna.

You have obviously absolutely misinterpreted and misunderstood ME completely. But do not feel to bad about it. Not one of ('you'), human beings, have interpreted (me) and understood (me) properly and correctly yet.

This applies across the board, to anything you care to name. We don't haffta like each other, or understand each other, or agree with each other, we may think the other other is just friggin' crazy, but: as long as we leave each other be, we shouldn't have any problems, yeah?
But I Truly like (and love) EVERY one, I Truly understand EVERY one, and what it is that we ALL Truly agree with, is what what leads to True PEACE, I do NOT think ANY one is crazy, and; as long as WE unite together, instead of leaving each other be, then there is NO problem at all.

The reason WHY ('you'), human beings are having ALL of the problems that you do is because ('you') do not like each other, do not understand each other, do not agree with each other, and think that each other are frigging crazy. This is also WHY ALL of ('you'), human beings are having all the troubles that you with each other. Thus the reason WHY some of you want to carry weapons, and commit evil and violent acts towards one another.
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