Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

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Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:17 am

Dontaskme wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 8:32 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 8:24 am
Dontaskme wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 8:11 am


The principle is the most intelligent person can do the most stupid thing, e.g. believe in a person that is illusory.

I took my meds today, and came up with the above response..did you like it?
You took the wrong meds.
Prove a person exists as an empirical thing evidenced or believed to be real?
Use a video camera to record the empirical evidences in the following;
Get all your real empirical relatives with real empirical selves to stand on a railway track with an oncoming train at t1, then after the train has passed them [t2] you and others can differentiate what was their real empirical selves [t1] and is the real empirical selfless bodies [t2].
Your relatives did exist as real empirical selves at t1.
Therefore a person exists as a real empirical thing (self).
QED
  • Empirical evidence is the information received by means of the senses, particularly by observation and documentation of patterns and behavior through experimentation.
    -wiki
You can do the test as many times as you want.
You can also do the test on your own real empirical self!

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Dontaskme
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Re: Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Post by Dontaskme » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:44 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:17 am

You can do the test as many times as you want.
You can also do the test on your own real empirical self!
What self, you mean the one you call a person?

Are there two of you? did you invent another you?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou_shal ... aven_image

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Dontaskme
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Re: Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Post by Dontaskme » Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:00 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:17 am
  • Empirical evidence is the information received by means of the senses, particularly by observation and documentation of patterns and behavior through experimentation.
    -wiki
What is received is what perceives...what goes in is the same as what comes out.

The self's only existence looks like this > ....גם הרב יפתח סופר מביא את האמרה "והיו עיניך רואות את מוריך", ומסביר

Or like this > 超懶火柴人

Or like this > Image

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Post by Immanuel Can » Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:34 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 6:13 am
I don't have any direct evidence.

However I have provided how I inferred the above from facts listed above.
It wasn't a justifiable inference. It took generalized (and often incorrect) suppositions that there is an automatic relationship between age and senility, and tried to apply them to a specific case (Flew), in which strong evidence to the contrary (his book, his own explanations) already existed.

I see the inference you were hoping to make. It just has no justification in being made.
What I have researched is all religions [theistic and non-theistic] are reducible to the existential dilemma and existential crisis arising from the subliminal fear of death.
That's like a poor version of Freud's hypothesis. It's nothing new, and nothing that hasn't been rationally dispatched completely already.

Your claim there is one that should be open to empirical test. If you want to prove it, all you'd have to do is round up as many Christians as you could, and ask them "Were you converted as a result of an existential dilemma and existential crisis, because you were afraid of death?" Or alternately, ask them to tell you their conversion stories, and see if an "existential crisis" over "the fear of death" is the common factor.

In my own case, I can tell you that death was no part of my thinking. However, I'm just one; and while one is enough to disprove such a universal claim as you've made above about how salvation works, you will need others to really bury that idea. Go ahead. I invite you.

But I can already tell you, "fear of death" is not a big factor for many Christians. It might play some role for a few, but even for them won't be determinative. One can easily fear death, but turn to other kinds of consolation -- such as denying the Material world, or Gnostic enlightenment, or even the Atheist consolation that death ends all, so there's nothing to fear. Still, you should find out for yourself, instead of just making stuff up.
Do you have any idea what sort of weightage would the eschatological element bear within Christianity? If you are ignorant of it, you don't have much credibility to speak for Christianity?
"Eschatological element?" I know exactly what those words mean in a Christian context, but I have no idea what you think they mean. It seems to be something very odd indeed, given your sentence above. "Weightage"? "Bear"? Very ambiguous grammar, to be sure.

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Dontaskme
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Re: Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Post by Dontaskme » Fri Oct 25, 2019 5:52 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:17 am
Dontaskme wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 8:32 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 8:24 am

You took the wrong meds.
Prove a person exists as an empirical thing evidenced or believed to be real?
Use a video camera to record the empirical evidences in the following;
Get all your real empirical relatives with real empirical selves to stand on a railway track with an oncoming train at t1, then after the train has passed them [t2] you and others can differentiate what was their real empirical selves [t1] and is the real empirical selfless bodies [t2].
Your relatives did exist as real empirical selves at t1.
Therefore a person exists as a real empirical thing (self).
If the bodies have real empirical selves before the train hit...but then no empirical selves after the train hit...then those empirical selves couldn’t have been real if those selves just end up selfless.

If the empirical self can die and become empirically selfless...then the self cannot be real can it? How can that which dies be real?

Explain that ?

Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Sat Oct 26, 2019 5:33 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:34 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 6:13 am
I don't have any direct evidence.

However I have provided how I inferred the above from facts listed above.
It wasn't a justifiable inference. It took generalized (and often incorrect) suppositions that there is an automatic relationship between age and senility, and tried to apply them to a specific case (Flew), in which strong evidence to the contrary (his book, his own explanations) already existed.

I see the inference you were hoping to make. It just has no justification in being made.
What I have researched is all religions [theistic and non-theistic] are reducible to the existential dilemma and existential crisis arising from the subliminal fear of death.
That's like a poor version of Freud's hypothesis. It's nothing new, and nothing that hasn't been rationally dispatched completely already.

Your claim there is one that should be open to empirical test. If you want to prove it, all you'd have to do is round up as many Christians as you could, and ask them "Were you converted as a result of an existential dilemma and existential crisis, because you were afraid of death?" Or alternately, ask them to tell you their conversion stories, and see if an "existential crisis" over "the fear of death" is the common factor.

In my own case, I can tell you that death was no part of my thinking. However, I'm just one; and while one is enough to disprove such a universal claim as you've made above about how salvation works, you will need others to really bury that idea. Go ahead. I invite you.

But I can already tell you, "fear of death" is not a big factor for many Christians. It might play some role for a few, but even for them won't be determinative. One can easily fear death, but turn to other kinds of consolation -- such as denying the Material world, or Gnostic enlightenment, or even the Atheist consolation that death ends all, so there's nothing to fear. Still, you should find out for yourself, instead of just making stuff up.
If any one has any noticeable and persistent 'fear of death' then one is suffering from a mental illness, i.e. thanatophobia [death anxiety]and should consult a psychiatrist.
  • Death anxiety is anxiety caused by thoughts of death. One source defines death anxiety as a "feeling of dread, apprehension or solicitude (anxiety) when one thinks of the process of dying, or ceasing to 'be'".[1] Also referred to as thanatophobia (fear of death), death anxiety is distinguished from necrophobia, which is a specific fear of dead or dying people and/or things (i.e., fear of others who are dead or dying, not of one's own death or dying).

    Additionally, there is anxiety caused by death-recent thought-content,[3] which might be classified within a clinical setting by a psychiatrist as morbid and/or abnormal, which for classification pre-necessitates a degree of anxiety which is persistent and interferes with everyday functioning.[4][5] Lower ego integrity, more physical problems and more psychological problems are predictive of higher levels of death anxiety in elderly people perceiving themselves close to death.

    -wiki
Note the last sentence which would be applicable to Flew's case when he was near his eighties.

It is instinctive to fear death or the threat of death to ensure survival.
However self-conscious humans has evolved to suppress the fear of death so that the ordinary person is not paralyzed with fear of death that interferes with everyday functioning.

However the above suppression [like capping a bottle of coca-cola] has potential weakness and leakages.
If the weakness is severe, the person will end up with thanatophobia thus need to consult a psychiatrist.

While evolution is able to cap and prevent/reduce the persistent conscious fear of death, the conscious mind is also aware of the fact of mortality and thus the fear of death is triggered subconsciously and there is turmoil within the subconscious.

So for all humans there are very subtle leakages which manifest indirectly and subliminally as mild anxieties and psychological discomfort where one cannot pinpoint the source thus the existential crisis within [not consciously] and Angst.
This is where a belief is God is an instant balm to soothe the Angst.

Therefore in your case, just as the same with every human being, there is the subconscious fear of death [based of fact of mortality] churning with turmoil within your subconscious mind. Note the subconscious mind is 90% powerful and dominant while the conscious mind is only 10%.

The majority of humans cling to a God to soothe their subconscious mind. The non-theists seek non-theistic alternative to soothe the existential pains exuding subliminally from the subconscious mind.
Do you have any idea what sort of weightage would the eschatological element bear within Christianity? If you are ignorant of it, you don't have much credibility to speak for Christianity?
"Eschatological element?" I know exactly what those words mean in a Christian context, but I have no idea what you think they mean. It seems to be something very odd indeed, given your sentence above. "Weightage"? "Bear"? Very ambiguous grammar, to be sure.
Point is your thoughts are narrow and shallow as demonstrated in your ignorance between the 'conscious fear of death' and 'the subliminal fear of death' by bragging you don't have a conscious 'fear of death' which is natural anyway.
That is why you will not have the intelligence to subsume the the "Eschatological elements" into its major premises of the existential crisis as explained above.

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Dontaskme
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Re: Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Post by Dontaskme » Sat Oct 26, 2019 8:19 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 5:33 am
........
DAM asks Veritas Aequitas: If the empirical self can die and become empirically selfless...then the self cannot be real can it? How can that which dies be real?

Explain that ?
You cannot answer that can you?

"Where is the "empirical self " that is supposed to be REAL?

The "empirical self" that is always associated with the empirical body which is nothing but a play of cells constantly being created and destroyed in a regenerational but temporal type of flux existence. So where is the constant empirical REAL in that which has nowhere or nothing to cling to?

Truth or Reality is itself a concept. You yourself VA are stuck in the world of imaginary concepts. A world of make belief that you accuse others of doing.

You may have spent years and years becoming knowledgable about Islam and Buddhism among other religious ideas. And you may have mastered the art of putting your knowledge into a written readable high sounding worded language that appears to sound very plausable and genuine. Yet all your learning and your ability to be able to repeat and recite what you have read in books into written form on this forum is all but a useless pile of same old same ol blah blah blah junk made to appear impressive...when what really matters is the capacity to understand NONDUALITY as being the only reality that is real.

It seems obvious that you appear to have no real understanding of Nonduality at all, you just think your knowledge makes you believe you know what you are talking about, but it is clear you do not know anything at all about what you are talking about. You are just a parrot like everyone else, you are nothing special. All your knowledge is not even your own, this is the funny part, because we have no knowledge of our own, we were all born a blank slate when it comes to knowledge. Every born person is a plagiarizer of knowledge palmed off as their own.

It's ok if you choose to keep evading the issues I bring to the table, for that will just confirm more firmly that all your so called knowledge is fake especially when it comes to thinking you know what you are talking about, because no one knows what they are talking about including me...and that is the nature of talking apes, their language is all they have got in order to make any sense of their realities, it's what makes their animal self a human self. Humans are tubeworms wearing a Tuxedo that's the only difference, and that is an absolute FACT...the fictional world is the only fact known. No human being has ever been alive before, and for some, well they already believe that they have got ''ALL THIS FIGURED OUT''..What a joke!!
I mean really, are we all just obliged to go along with whatever KNOWLEDGE informs us?

It is just totally pompous and arrogant to cast people off as being mentally unstable just because they dare to challenge certain claims. But sometimes we all have to finally admit to ourselves that we have no real idea of what we are talking about except what is conveniently applicable to our own deluded models and beliefs that we have constructed and have accused others of doing same habit.





.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Post by Immanuel Can » Sat Oct 26, 2019 2:08 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 5:33 am
thanatophobia [death anxiety]and should consult a psychiatrist.
  • Death anxiety is anxiety caused by thoughts of death. ...
Wait, wait, wait...

That "death anxiety" exists, and that some people have it does not go one step toward proving either that a) it's why all Theists believe what they do, or b) that it's why, contrary to all he said, it's why Anthony Flew became a Deist.

Your argument is so bad it's the logical equivalent of saying, "Since cancer exists, everybody has it." Or it's like saying, "Since males exist, every human is a male."

That's about the weakest argument a person could possibly ever invent. :shock:

Really, you can't possibly expect that to stand.

surreptitious57
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Re: Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Post by surreptitious57 » Sat Oct 26, 2019 2:58 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
The empirical self that is always associated with the empirical body which is nothing but a play of cells constantly being created and destroyed in
a regenerational but temporal type of flux existence . So where is the constant empirical REAL in that which has nowhere or nothing to cling to ?
The only thing that is constant is Existence itself as everything else is indeed temporary
Things die then they transition into something else - this is simply how nature operates

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Dontaskme
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Re: Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Post by Dontaskme » Sat Oct 26, 2019 6:46 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 2:58 pm
Dontaskme wrote:
The empirical self that is always associated with the empirical body which is nothing but a play of cells constantly being created and destroyed in
a regenerational but temporal type of flux existence . So where is the constant empirical REAL in that which has nowhere or nothing to cling to ?
The only thing that is constant is Existence itself as everything else is indeed temporary
Things die then they transition into something else - this is simply how nature operates
Yes, and it does all of this amazingly well without a self or a brain.

.

surreptitious57
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Re: Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Post by surreptitious57 » Sat Oct 26, 2019 7:07 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Yes and it does all of this amazingly well without a self or a brain
Nature can function perfectly well without them because it is very adaptable indeed
We are just another organism to it - no more no less - nothing special about us at all

I like this because it is the perfect antidote to us thinking that we are somehow important in the grand scheme of things
We are actually no more or less important than any other living thing is - we are simply passing through and nothing else

Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Sun Oct 27, 2019 5:22 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 2:08 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 5:33 am
thanatophobia [death anxiety]and should consult a psychiatrist.
  • Death anxiety is anxiety caused by thoughts of death. ...
Wait, wait, wait...

That "death anxiety" exists, and that some people have it does not go one step toward proving either that a) it's why all Theists believe what they do, or b) that it's why, contrary to all he said, it's why Anthony Flew became a Deist.

Your argument is so bad it's the logical equivalent of saying, "Since cancer exists, everybody has it." Or it's like saying, "Since males exist, every human is a male."

That's about the weakest argument a person could possibly ever invent. :shock:

Really, you can't possibly expect that to stand.
It is stated "ALL humans has cancer cells in their body."
Also, ALL humans had dangerous and non-dangerous bacteria and viruses in their body
Thus any human has the potential to suffer from cancer or various diseases when their immunity is weaken due to various reasons.
Is this a weak argument?

Note in the above case, I was not specifically referring the "death anxiety" at the conscious level as the cause of for the majority of theists to cling to a good to soothe those anxieties.

My point with reference to the majority of theists is that the 'existential crisis' [triggered by the death anxiety] from the subconscious mind [subliminal] that manifest and exudes indirect untraceable anxieties and Angst.

For example, many people act in some situations without knowing the real reason why they are doing the act. The root cause can be subliminal as in subliminal advertising where a person think he is consciously making a decision to by a can of coke instead of pepsi while not being aware, that decision was affected by subliminal messages from advertising done be Coca-Cola.

In the animal world there are animals whose actions are controlled by zombie-parasites.
Note zombied-ants who "naturally" climbed up to the utmost tip of grasses in danger of being eaten by cows. The ants actions are actually controlled by parasites in their brain to enable the parasite to complete its life cycle.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vijGdWn5-h8

Humans' actions are also controlled by certain parasites.
Note the case of hydrophobia as controlled by the rabies virus. The person do not know why he has a sudden fear of water. Thus the person is zombied to fear water by a virus.
There are many of such event in humans.

The case of theism and theist is also similar to a zombied situation.
The subliminal existential crisis created a neural algorithm that is culiminated in desperate subliminal existential pains not felt consciously but exudes indirectly as Angst which force the theist to cling to a God as a security blanket.

The test of this security blanket is the degree of how desperate the average theists will cling to the security blanket.
Whenever there is a threat of that security blanket, normally a defense mechanism is triggered to defend it.
  • A defense mechanism is an unconscious psychological mechanism that reduces anxiety arising from unacceptable or potentially harmful stimuli.
    -wiki
Such a defense mechanism will do whatever is necessary to secure the 'security blanket' e.g. in your case, giving all sort of flimsy arguments based on faith and not reasoned out.
Note the accusation of [a]theist as bigots, racists, hate-speech, enforcement of blasphemy laws, controlling of free-speech, etc.
In the extreme the triggered defense mechanism will drive theists to kill those who are perceived as a threat to their security blanket.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Post by Immanuel Can » Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:24 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 5:22 am
Immanuel Can wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 2:08 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 5:33 am
thanatophobia [death anxiety]and should consult a psychiatrist.
  • Death anxiety is anxiety caused by thoughts of death. ...
Wait, wait, wait...

That "death anxiety" exists, and that some people have it does not go one step toward proving either that a) it's why all Theists believe what they do, or b) that it's why, contrary to all he said, it's why Anthony Flew became a Deist.

Your argument is so bad it's the logical equivalent of saying, "Since cancer exists, everybody has it." Or it's like saying, "Since males exist, every human is a male."

That's about the weakest argument a person could possibly ever invent. :shock:

Really, you can't possibly expect that to stand.
It is stated "ALL humans has cancer cells in their body."
Wait...wait...wait...

Now you're actually going to DEFEND that logic? :shock:

It's the same logic as, "Some humans are males, therefore all humans are males." Defend that proposition, if you can.
Is this a weak argument?
Unbelievably. Obviously.

Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:08 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:24 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 5:22 am
Immanuel Can wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 2:08 pm

Wait, wait, wait...

That "death anxiety" exists, and that some people have it does not go one step toward proving either that a) it's why all Theists believe what they do, or b) that it's why, contrary to all he said, it's why Anthony Flew became a Deist.

Your argument is so bad it's the logical equivalent of saying, "Since cancer exists, everybody has it." Or it's like saying, "Since males exist, every human is a male."

That's about the weakest argument a person could possibly ever invent. :shock:

Really, you can't possibly expect that to stand.
It is stated "ALL humans has cancer cells in their body."
Wait...wait...wait...

Now you're actually going to DEFEND that logic? :shock:

It's the same logic as, "Some humans are males, therefore all humans are males." Defend that proposition, if you can.
Can't you see your fallacy of hasty generalization form 'some' to 'all'?

My conclusion is based from 'ALL' to 'some'.
It is stated
"ALL humans has cancer cells in their body."
Also, ALL humans had dangerous and non-dangerous bacteria and viruses in their body
Thus any human has the potential to suffer from cancer or various diseases when their immunity is weaken due to various reasons.
Is this a weak argument?
Is this a weak argument?
Unbelievably. Obviously.
[/quote]
How so?
You gave no explanation.

It is proven by Science, when one's immunity of weaken, then one will likely succumb to bacteria, virus or cancer cells.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Is the Critique of Islam Islamophobic?

Post by Immanuel Can » Mon Oct 28, 2019 3:02 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:08 am
Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:24 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 5:22 am

It is stated "ALL humans has cancer cells in their body."
Wait...wait...wait...

Now you're actually going to DEFEND that logic? :shock:

It's the same logic as, "Some humans are males, therefore all humans are males." Defend that proposition, if you can.
Can't you see your fallacy of hasty generalization form 'some' to 'all'?
That's YOUR fallacy.

You went from "Some people have death-anxiety," to "All, including every Theist and Deist, was motivated by nothing but death anxiety." Put that way, the fallacy is very clear.
You gave no explanation.
Now I did.

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