Information encoded on Black hole horizons is a mindnumbingly stupid idea

How does science work? And what's all this about quantum mechanics?

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Atla
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Re: Information encoded on Black hole horizons is a mindnumbingly stupid idea

Post by Atla » Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:26 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:15 pm
You do understand that you are expressing a point of view relative to you, thus of course it will always be true to "you"
Not how it works.
Then explain it since, according to you, you know it all.
Answer the question: How do you define the abstract vs concrete distinction? Define it.
Not my job to educate people about the basics.
Look it up on the Wiki and come back in a year when you've overhauled your worldview accordingly.
You said you where here for two years...not decades...and what makes you so special? I am broad minded, and last time I checked...I am not seeing your unified theory being spoken here...so you are flea to most people.
Of course I'm not talking about my unified theory here or elsewhere. There is an unexpected, pretty dark turning point up ahead that you probably won't reach.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Information encoded on Black hole horizons is a mindnumbingly stupid idea

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:33 pm

Atla wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:26 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:15 pm
You do understand that you are expressing a point of view relative to you, thus of course it will always be true to "you"
Not how it works.

There goes the repetitive mumbling again.
Then explain it since, according to you, you know it all.
Answer the question: How do you define the abstract vs concrete distinction? Define it.
Not my job to educate people about the basics.
Then you dont know them and are lying to everyone here when you say you do know them.


Look it up on the Wiki and come back in a year when you've overhauled your worldview accordingly.
So you learned everything from wiki then? You do no people just come in and create pages...which kind of means your academic ground is negated in the face of mass opinion taking over encyclopedias.

You said you where here for two years...not decades...and what makes you so special? I am broad minded, and last time I checked...I am not seeing your unified theory being spoken here...so you are flea to most people.
Of course I'm not talking about my unified theory here or elsewhere. There is an unexpected, pretty dark turning point up ahead that you probably won't reach.

I dont know, I have been talking about points all the time. You are pretty much saying your theory is intrinsically empty.

Me personally, I think you can't handle criticism...I mean I ask you to define the "abstract vs concrete" distinction and you keep point elsewhere and then say I am changing subjects.

Define: abstract vs. concrete.

You flop around like a dying fish.

Atla
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Re: Information encoded on Black hole horizons is a mindnumbingly stupid idea

Post by Atla » Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:36 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:33 pm
Atla wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:26 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:15 pm
You do understand that you are expressing a point of view relative to you, thus of course it will always be true to "you"
Not how it works.

There goes the repetitive mumbling again.
Then explain it since, according to you, you know it all.
Answer the question: How do you define the abstract vs concrete distinction? Define it.
Not my job to educate people about the basics.
Then you dont know them and are lying to everyone here when you say you do know them.


Look it up on the Wiki and come back in a year when you've overhauled your worldview accordingly.
So you learned everything from wiki then? You do no people just come in and create pages...which kind of means your academic ground is negated in the face of mass opinion taking over encyclopedias.

You said you where here for two years...not decades...and what makes you so special? I am broad minded, and last time I checked...I am not seeing your unified theory being spoken here...so you are flea to most people.
Of course I'm not talking about my unified theory here or elsewhere. There is an unexpected, pretty dark turning point up ahead that you probably won't reach.

I dont know, I have been talking about points all the time. You are pretty much saying your theory is intrinsically empty.

Me personally, I think you can't handle criticism...I mean I ask you to define the "abstract vs concrete" distinction and you keep point elsewhere and then say I am changing subjects.

Define: abstract vs. concrete.

You flop around like a dying fish.
Actually your replies are getting even more illogical than before.
Anyway here's a starter for you:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstract_and_concrete

But I don't expect that you'll have more success grasping it than Timeseeker.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Information encoded on Black hole horizons is a mindnumbingly stupid idea

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:55 pm

Atla wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:36 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:33 pm
Atla wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:26 pm

Not how it works.

There goes the repetitive mumbling again.



Not my job to educate people about the basics.
Then you dont know them and are lying to everyone here when you say you do know them.


Look it up on the Wiki and come back in a year when you've overhauled your worldview accordingly.
So you learned everything from wiki then? You do no people just come in and create pages...which kind of means your academic ground is negated in the face of mass opinion taking over encyclopedias.



Of course I'm not talking about my unified theory here or elsewhere. There is an unexpected, pretty dark turning point up ahead that you probably won't reach.

I dont know, I have been talking about points all the time. You are pretty much saying your theory is intrinsically empty.

Me personally, I think you can't handle criticism...I mean I ask you to define the "abstract vs concrete" distinction and you keep point elsewhere and then say I am changing subjects.

Define: abstract vs. concrete.

You flop around like a dying fish.
Actually your replies are getting even more illogical than before.
And there you go again mumbling gibberish.
Anyway here's a starter for you:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstract_and_concrete

But I don't expect that you'll have more success grasping it than Timeseeker.
Actually it clarified nothing at all quite frankly. And I will tell you why, it does no define what this connection it's without making assumptions.

"Abstract objects have no physical references while physical objects do".

Here is a simple question: is a reference physical or abstract? In simpler terms is a "connection" physical or abstract?

The line is blurred and this whole argument, as empirically existing as a screen page and as an abstraction at the same time, kind of hinges on an undefined word.


They give a chart of abstractions and concrete objects but it makes no sense.

A car as a memory is an abstraction, five as a quantity of space is concrete.

Numbers do not exist without counting phenomena, all phenomena exist as forms, thus numbers are concrete. An object being formed, such as a car, cannot exist without an abstraction (engineering plans)...thus all physical object is we form are abstractions as well.

Not to mention all physical objects existing as abstractions in the memory.

Skepdick
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Re: Information encoded on Black hole horizons is a mindnumbingly stupid idea

Post by Skepdick » Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:24 am

Atla wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:36 pm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstract_and_concrete

But I don't expect that you'll have more success grasping it than Timeseeker.
You are projecting your own ignorance here.

The type-token distinction concretises the abstract-concrete distinction in formal language theory. This stuff would've been covered in your first lecture on Object-Oriented programming.

You claim to have studied computer science - personally, I think you are lying, but I guess I'll never know the truth.
If you aren't lying though - you really should ask for your money back.

Atla
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Re: Information encoded on Black hole horizons is a mindnumbingly stupid idea

Post by Atla » Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:50 am

And both of you failed as usual. But I'm confident that eventually - maybe in a year or two - you can sort this issue out, after which you'll be able to take your first baby steps in philosophy.

uwot
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Re: Information encoded on Black hole horizons is a mindnumbingly stupid idea

Post by uwot » Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:48 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 7:40 pm
uwot wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 7:34 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:34 pm
...while I am always bashing physics for contradictions it is right about alot. They contradictions I point out are only because of its current religious stance.
The religious beliefs of physicists are entirely their own business, but they make no difference to how the universe behaves. Ultimately, physics is the study of what the universe and its constituents, broadly speaking matter and forces, are observed to do. If there is any disagreement about that, physicists can do the experiments and measurements themselves. The disagreements and contradictions start when people argue about what the universe, matter and forces are and why they do what they do. Any theory that isn't ruled out by the evidence could be true, and as any physicist worth their salt knows, there are a lot of different theories. For example:
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:34 pm
Information may in fact be encoded in the event horizon of black holes.
The point being that if that were so, what difference would it make to what physicists observe? If none, then it is simply a philosophical position that some physicists will find interesting, others will think ridiculous and not a few think a waste of time.
It is simple, they are right because the definitions they provide are contexts and contexts are always right and wrong.

Right "and" wrong.

Do you see where I am going?
I think it would help if you broke down physics into its main constituents.
1. Observation/measurement.
Some behaviour stirs the interest. One or more physicist examines it. In this context, physicists don't really define anything; they just explain the behaviour fairly literally - what happens and how much.
2. Mathematical modelling.
Having done a load of measurements, they look for patterns to see if there is some general rule. If they find one, they may be able to define it in mathematical terms which are already broadly accepted; force, energy, charge, mass, spin and so on.
Or:
3. Physical/philosophical modelling.
Having decided that there is no current context in which the mathematical model can be explained, they may introduce a new concept to account for some variable or constant that pops up in the mathematical model. Quite often though, they will skip this part, because it makes no difference to the accuracy of the mathematical model.
I suspect it is the 3rd part you take issue with. It is very confusing because if you take every model literally, it does lead to contradictions. Notoriously Einstein's model of empty space is contradicted by his model of a homogeneous spacetime, which in turn is contradicted by the particulate model of quantum mechanics. This gets armchair philosophers hopelessly befuddled and shooting off batshit theories they believe can reconcile the contradictions, or railing at 'physics' for being so contrary. While they do that, physicists get on with using relativity and quantum mechanics, because they work.

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Sculptor
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Re: Information encoded on Black hole horizons is a mindnumbingly stupid idea

Post by Sculptor » Sun Oct 20, 2019 1:18 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:35 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:27 pm
Atla wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:15 pm

You understand nothing as usual.
Rubbish.
Your opening gambit was clearly false, which I challenged.
Fact is all information that is available to us is ALL "encoded" in the physical.

Then you followed up with some "back of a cereal packet" pseudo-scientific guff about "black holes" which was un-reference nonsense, then you accuse ME of understanding nothing!!
LOL
But I think it obvious that information IS "encoded" physically. This is also true of brain structure, computer memory and even the day to day thoughts and ideas.
Even sound waves are physical.

Then we are left with there being different grades of what constitutes "physical".

Skepdick
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Re: Information encoded on Black hole horizons is a mindnumbingly stupid idea

Post by Skepdick » Sun Oct 20, 2019 1:58 pm

Atla wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:50 am
And both of you failed as usual. But I'm confident that eventually - maybe in a year or two - you can sort this issue out, after which you'll be able to take your first baby steps in philosophy.
On the contrary. I think I have mastered Philosophy. Let me show you...

You just lost a philosophical argument. The rest of this conversation is merely us working towards your acceptance of this fact.

Skepdick
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Re: Information encoded on Black hole horizons is a mindnumbingly stupid idea

Post by Skepdick » Sun Oct 20, 2019 2:04 pm

uwot wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:48 pm
I suspect it is the 3rd part you take issue with. It is very confusing because if you take every model literally, it does lead to contradictions.
Naturally. The "law" of non-contradiction has been worshiped as a deity by Philosophy for a very long time.

It has been assumed as a fundamental property of Truth, or rather the presence of a contradiction signifies the absence of Truth.

It's a heuristic. Like all heuristics - taken too far, it backfires.

Atla
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Re: Information encoded on Black hole horizons is a mindnumbingly stupid idea

Post by Atla » Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:13 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 1:58 pm
Atla wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:50 am
And both of you failed as usual. But I'm confident that eventually - maybe in a year or two - you can sort this issue out, after which you'll be able to take your first baby steps in philosophy.
On the contrary. I think I have mastered Philosophy. Let me show you...

You just lost a philosophical argument. The rest of this conversation is merely us working towards your acceptance of this fact.
Cute :D

uwot
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Re: Information encoded on Black hole horizons is a mindnumbingly stupid idea

Post by uwot » Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:10 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 2:04 pm
The "law" of non-contradiction has been worshiped as a deity by Philosophy for a very long time.
Well yeah, some philosophers take that 'law' as a given.
Skepdick wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 2:04 pm
It has been assumed as a fundamental property of Truth, or rather the presence of a contradiction signifies the absence of Truth.
By those same philosophers, certainly.
Skepdick wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 2:04 pm
It's a heuristic. Like all heuristics - taken too far, it backfires.
Yup. It's just a principal that if triggered, suggests there is something afoot. The thing is there is no single philosophy that all philosophers adhere to. This crude model is your own heuristic, which I think you have taken too far.

Skepdick
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Re: Information encoded on Black hole horizons is a mindnumbingly stupid idea

Post by Skepdick » Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:42 pm

uwot wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:10 pm
The thing is there is no single philosophy that all philosophers adhere to. This crude model is your own heuristic, which I think you have taken too far.
In so far as any philosophy accepts the LNC as an incontrovertible principle - I paint them with the same brush.

Not all philosophers adhere to it, but majority of humans do. For as long as philosophers are humans, statistically - that's as good as any heuristic can hope for.

uwot
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Re: Information encoded on Black hole horizons is a mindnumbingly stupid idea

Post by uwot » Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:45 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:42 pm
In so far as any philosophy accepts the LNC as a principle - I paint them with the same brush.

Not all philosophers adhere to it, but majority do. Statistically - that's as good as any heuristic can hope for.
So where do you get your statistics from?

Skepdick
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Re: Information encoded on Black hole horizons is a mindnumbingly stupid idea

Post by Skepdick » Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:46 pm

uwot wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:45 pm
Skepdick wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:42 pm
In so far as any philosophy accepts the LNC as a principle - I paint them with the same brush.

Not all philosophers adhere to it, but majority do. Statistically - that's as good as any heuristic can hope for.
So where do you get your statistics from?
The human population. Of which (I assume) philosophers are a representative sample.

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