Information encoded on Black hole horizons is a mindnumbingly stupid idea

How does science work? And what's all this about quantum mechanics?

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Information encoded on Black hole horizons is a mindnumbingly stupid idea

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:09 am

uwot wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 1:39 pm
Atla wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 12:18 pm
Saying that information, an abstraction about physical stuff, is encoded in physical stuff, is a thinking error nothing more. It's nonsensical, it's impossible, it's crazy.
Well, if you take the view that the universe is made of some sort of 'stuff', (It's physical Jim, but not as we know it.) then information is anything that is true about that stuff.
Coupla quotes for ya:
“What we observe as material bodies and forces are nothing but shapes and variations in the structure of space.”
- Erwin Schrodinger.
“If you want to find the secrets of the universe, think in terms of energy, frequency and vibration.”
- Nikola Tesla
Atla wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 12:18 pm
They wanted to save the Second law of thermodynamics, but why? That too is crazy.
I think it's fairly obvious that if in some parts of the universe entropy is increasing, then in some other parts it must be decreasing...
Dangerous word 'obvious'. Much better to support a conviction with an argument. Better still, some evidence. So, what's your reason for making that assertion?
Atla wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 12:18 pm
...and that's what happens in Black holes. What would actually be inexplicable would be if the Second law indeed was universal.
If it were, then you would expect something like an expanding universe, cold background radiation, the milk in your coffee not leaping to one end of the cup...pretty much what we actually observe.
Atla wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 12:18 pm
Instead now many are arguing about whether the world is simulated or not. This looks like too much idiocy, so one has to ask, is the scientific progress somehow being derailed on purpose?
Nah. It's just that some physicists are no better at philosophy than some of the loons on this forum.
Atla wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 12:18 pm
The only actually interesting question here is whether "information" is lost in black holes or not. If the entire universe is entangled (which it probably is), then the answer is probably no. If it's not, then the answer is probably yes.
Are you sure you mean 'entangled', which has a specific meaning, rather than something like 'interconnected', which you can make a much better case for?
What we understand of the material bodies and forces is nothing but shapes and variations in the structure of space.

This is no different than saying:

0d point is mass.
1d line is volume as the projection of mass.
The line as composed of lines (or circle within circle) is density.

Under this state each line as composed of lines, and circles as composed of circles, necessitates why black holes are so dense.

gaffo
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Re: Information encoded on Black hole horizons is a mindnumbingly stupid idea

Post by gaffo » Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:28 am

Atla wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:13 am

It is irrelevant whether we, humans can track the info or not. And humans will probably never be able to monitor all the quantum fluctuations on the event horizon of a BH for quadrillions of years, so either way, info is lost for us, humans.
However if the universe is entangled (like one big 'wavefunction') then 'objectively' info may be never lost.
yes, agreed per BH's................so we are talking about other quantum universes now? why was i not told?


lol.

Atla
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Re: Information encoded on Black hole horizons is a mindnumbingly stupid idea

Post by Atla » Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:38 am

gaffo wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:28 am
so we are talking about other quantum universes now? why was i not told?


lol.
The hell are you talking about?
Nvm, it doesn't matter

Skepdick
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Re: Information encoded on Black hole horizons is a mindnumbingly stupid idea

Post by Skepdick » Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:44 am

gaffo wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:28 am
so we are talking about other quantum universes now? why was i not told?
Because it's just a conceptual/epistemic/linguistic mind-game?

The thing that Many worlds and Coppenhagen share in common is the "interpretation" part.

There is only one universe, irrespective of how we interpret it.
There is one universe, even if it's composed of multiverses.

People keep confusing what the universe is with what we say/think about it...

uwot
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Re: Information encoded on Black hole horizons is a mindnumbingly stupid idea

Post by uwot » Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:41 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:09 am
What we understand of the material bodies and forces is nothing but shapes and variations in the structure of space.

This is no different than saying:

0d point is mass.
Well it's different in that arguing that space has mechanical properties is not the same as treating mass as a mathematical value. It's basically the difference between Newton and Einstein.

Eodnhoj7
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Re: Information encoded on Black hole horizons is a mindnumbingly stupid idea

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:09 pm

uwot wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:41 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:09 am
What we understand of the material bodies and forces is nothing but shapes and variations in the structure of space.

This is no different than saying:

0d point is mass.
Well it's different in that arguing that space has mechanical properties is not the same as treating mass as a mathematical value. It's basically the difference between Newton and Einstein.
Mechanical properties, any machine, is taking abstractions and turning them into physical entities.
Mathematical values are functions, they have input/output and as such share a similar nature to the machine.

uwot
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Re: Information encoded on Black hole horizons is a mindnumbingly stupid idea

Post by uwot » Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:59 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:09 pm
Mechanical properties, any machine, is taking abstractions and turning them into physical entities.
Exactly. Schroedinger was alluding to his philosophical belief that space is a physical entity. That is the premise that Einstein based general relativity on - that 'spacetime' is a physical substance that is warped by mass and energy. The irony is that special relativity is premised on it being a void; much as Newton had argued.
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:09 pm
Mathematical values are functions, they have input/output and as such share a similar nature to the machine.
Fair enough. The difference is though that mathematics has no physical properties.

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Sculptor
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Re: Information encoded on Black hole horizons is a mindnumbingly stupid idea

Post by Sculptor » Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:10 pm

Atla wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 12:18 pm
Saying that information, an abstraction about physical stuff, is encoded in physical stuff, is a thinking error nothing more. It's nonsensical, it's impossible, it's crazy.
It makes perfect sense. Books, and the words you are currently trying to read are physical, yet they contain information.

They wanted to save the Second law of thermodynamics, but why? That too is crazy.
I think it's fairly obvious that if in some parts of the universe entropy is increasing, then in some other parts it must be decreasing; and that's what happens in Black holes. What would actually be inexplicable would be if the Second law indeed was universal.

Instead now many are arguing about whether the world is simulated or not. This looks like too much idiocy, so one has to ask, is the scientific progress somehow being derailed on purpose?

The only actually interesting question here is whether "information" is lost in black holes or not. If the entire universe is entangled (which it probably is), then the answer is probably no. If it's not, then the answer is probably yes.
What about BLACK HOLES?

Atla
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Re: Information encoded on Black hole horizons is a mindnumbingly stupid idea

Post by Atla » Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:15 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:10 pm
Atla wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 12:18 pm
Saying that information, an abstraction about physical stuff, is encoded in physical stuff, is a thinking error nothing more. It's nonsensical, it's impossible, it's crazy.
It makes perfect sense. Books, and the words you are currently trying to read are physical, yet they contain information.
You understand nothing as usual.

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Sculptor
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Re: Information encoded on Black hole horizons is a mindnumbingly stupid idea

Post by Sculptor » Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:27 pm

Atla wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:15 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:10 pm
Atla wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 12:18 pm
Saying that information, an abstraction about physical stuff, is encoded in physical stuff, is a thinking error nothing more. It's nonsensical, it's impossible, it's crazy.
It makes perfect sense. Books, and the words you are currently trying to read are physical, yet they contain information.
You understand nothing as usual.
Rubbish.
Your opening gambit was clearly false, which I challenged.
Fact is all information that is available to us is ALL "encoded" in the physical.

Then you followed up with some "back of a cereal packet" pseudo-scientific guff about "black holes" which was un-reference nonsense, then you accuse ME of understanding nothing!!
LOL

Eodnhoj7
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Re: Information encoded on Black hole horizons is a mindnumbingly stupid idea

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:34 pm

uwot wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:59 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:09 pm
Mechanical properties, any machine, is taking abstractions and turning them into physical entities.
Exactly. Schroedinger was alluding to his philosophical belief that space is a physical entity. That is the premise that Einstein based general relativity on - that 'spacetime' is a physical substance that is warped by mass and energy. The irony is that special relativity is premised on it being a void; much as Newton had argued.
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:09 pm
Mathematical values are functions, they have input/output and as such share a similar nature to the machine.
Fair enough. The difference is though that mathematics has no physical properties.

Ehhh...I wouldn't go that far either. That is why, while I am always bashing physics for contradictions it is right about alot. They contradictions I point out are only because of its current religious stance.

Information may in fact be encoded in the event horizon of black holes.

The reason I say this is a really simple premise, a paradox: If all is composed of matter and consciousness is composed of matter, and consciousness is information, then the black holes contain information at the event horizon.

A black hole, void, differs little from the subconscious (literally and metaphorically) which is also void, thus we are left with space being the underlying medium of expression both as we are left with the basic dualism of form and formless that underlies the physics of the black hole and the psychology of the mind.

So yeah we can study physics to learn logic and math, and vice versa. They are both variations of the same language of geometry. Geometry I use in an even simpler sense than what we are taught in school: the study of space.

You see where I am headed?

Thus to cycle back to what I said earlier, in a new configuration:

0d point space is the geometry of the black hole and subconsciousness.
1d linear space is the geometry of volume (light) and consciousness.





Eodnhoj7
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Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:18 am

Re: Information encoded on Black hole horizons is a mindnumbingly stupid idea

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:35 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:27 pm
Atla wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:15 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:10 pm

It makes perfect sense. Books, and the words you are currently trying to read are physical, yet they contain information.
You understand nothing as usual.
Rubbish.
Your opening gambit was clearly false, which I challenged.
Fact is all information that is available to us is ALL "encoded" in the physical.

Then you followed up with some "back of a cereal packet" pseudo-scientific guff about "black holes" which was un-reference nonsense, then you accuse ME of understanding nothing!!
LOL
Then we are left with there being different grades of what constitutes "physical".

Eodnhoj7
Posts: 6024
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:18 am

Re: Information encoded on Black hole horizons is a mindnumbingly stupid idea

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:36 pm

Atla wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:15 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:10 pm
Atla wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 12:18 pm
Saying that information, an abstraction about physical stuff, is encoded in physical stuff, is a thinking error nothing more. It's nonsensical, it's impossible, it's crazy.
It makes perfect sense. Books, and the words you are currently trying to read are physical, yet they contain information.
You understand nothing as usual.
Do you ever supply an argument, or do you plan on using a false means of testing (iq) as a fallacious authority?

Useless...Your boredom makes you boring to the rest of us.

Atla
Posts: 2732
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:27 am

Re: Information encoded on Black hole horizons is a mindnumbingly stupid idea

Post by Atla » Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:36 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:27 pm
Atla wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:15 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:10 pm

It makes perfect sense. Books, and the words you are currently trying to read are physical, yet they contain information.
You understand nothing as usual.
Rubbish.
Your opening gambit was clearly false, which I challenged.
Fact is all information that is available to us is ALL "encoded" in the physical.

Then you followed up with some "back of a cereal packet" pseudo-scientific guff about "black holes" which was un-reference nonsense, then you accuse ME of understanding nothing!!
LOL
Excellent, then you can explain how information is "encoded" in, say, a photon.
In fact you can be the first human to do so.

Atla
Posts: 2732
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:27 am

Re: Information encoded on Black hole horizons is a mindnumbingly stupid idea

Post by Atla » Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:38 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:36 pm
Atla wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:15 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:10 pm

It makes perfect sense. Books, and the words you are currently trying to read are physical, yet they contain information.
You understand nothing as usual.
Do you ever supply an argument, or do you plan on using a false means of testing (iq) as a fallacious authority?

Useless...Your boredom makes you boring to the rest of us.
What I said about information is fact, I also opened a topic about it on the forum btw.
Not my fault that you guys are clueless about the basics.

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