DAM asked: "Is being born worth it - or is it better to have never been born?"

[Ferdi]

What is your concept/definition of your "infinite"?
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Infinite is THIS right here and NOW minus the definition.

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I am lost with your reply. Your “THIS right here and NOW” is this Philosophy site, and please enlighten me about how to deduct “the definition”.

[Dontaskme]

What is your concept/definition of your "infinite"?

I am lost with your reply. Your “THIS right here and NOW” is this Philosophy site, and please enlighten me about how to deduct “the definition”.

Apologies for being vague.

Yes, I agree this right here and now is the philosphy site.

In answer to your question .... ''What is your concept/definition of your "infinite"?

My conceptual definition of the 'infinite' would go something like... this philosophy site is being this right here and now, it's an infinite potential revealed. And that prior to knowledge that this right here and now is the philosophy site .. was just the potential of that ''knowledge'' to be actualised, to become known.

Prior to the knowledge of said statement there is infinite potential prior to becoming anything - of which upon knowing becomes infinite potential revealed as actuality aka KNOWN.
In contrast nothing can be said of this absolute here and now knowing nature. And so THIS right here and NOW not-knowing unborn nature of INFINITY must be revealed as a conceptual definition, in other words what is perceived becomes known, but only as a perception.

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[jayjacobus]

Reality fluctuates between 1 state and 1 space and infinite time and infinite space. A person's soul exists in 1 state and 1 space. Every other part of reality exists in different states and different spaces within infinity. The soul that exists in 1 state and 1 space can perceive different parts of infinity if and only if data from the states within infinite space arrive at 1 time and 1 space which they do because the brain (which is in a position in infinity) brings them to the soul.

The fluctuation between 1 state and 1 space and infinite states and infinite spaces creates time. 1 state and 1 space is in conflict with infinite states and infinite space. The conflict is never resolved because 1 is absolute and infinity is also absolute. We exist between the two.

Too difficult?

[jayjacobus]

Reality fluctuates between 1 state and 1 space and infinite time and infinite space. A person's soul exists in 1 state and 1 space. Every other part of reality exists in different states and different spaces within infinity. The soul that exists in 1 state and 1 space can perceive different parts of infinity if and only if data from the states within infinite space arrive at 1 time and 1 space which they do because the brain (which is in a position in infinity) brings them to the soul.

The fluctuation between 1 state and 1 space and infinite states and infinite spaces creates time. 1 state and 1 space is in conflict with infinite states and infinite space. The conflict is never resolved because 1 is absolute and infinity is also absolute. We exist between the two.

Too difficult?

I need to modify this. We actually exist in infinite space and each of us has a location in infinite space. We cannot all exist in 1 space. The above applies only to the conflict between 1 state and infinite states. That seems right.

[Ferdi]

Reality fluctuates between 1 state and 1 space and infinite time and infinite space. A person's soul exists in 1 state and 1 space. Every other part of reality exists in different states and different spaces within infinity. The soul that exists in 1 state and 1 space can perceive different parts of infinity if and only if data from the states within infinite space arrive at 1 time and 1 space which they do because the brain (which is in a position in infinity) brings them to the soul.

The fluctuation between 1 state and 1 space and infinite states and infinite spaces creates time. 1 state and 1 space is in conflict with infinite states and infinite space. The conflict is never resolved because 1 is absolute and infinity is also absolute. We exist between the two.

Too difficult?

I need to modify this. We actually exist in infinite space and each of us has a location in infinite space. We cannot all exist in 1 space. The above applies only to the conflict between 1 state and infinite states. That seems right.

We exist in an infinite space; infinity includes infinitely small, penetrating all. Our ideas of dimensions of space and time do not apply to infinity; inherently beyond our grasp.
About a person’s “soul”; it is what drives us, “being” here, our presence, conscience and free will, enables us to make some choices.
When watching a birth we see the arrival of a fully grown alive fetus. It may not have life yet but will be awaiting the arrival of its “life”. Some manipulations from the attending expert may reveal that “life” has suddenly entered. The baby “has come to life”, but where did that “life” come from ? Does life just come from the infinity of space in our room? Similarly, while observing a peacefully dying person, life can be seen to be still present until, at some instant, we can “see” that the person’s life has departed. That “life” must have returned to the infinity of space in our room.
Lives come and go all the time, but where from and where to ? It is obvious that there must be an origin and a destination for all those lives. To me that is INFINITY !
Is being born worth it? To be worthwhile, it requires a purpose. But no purpose is instilled and because it is not obvious, a plethora of beliefs has evolved. We can readily produce beliefs but we can’t see the source nor the destination of life and we can only guess about its purpose. One may go in raptures about some beautiful earthly scenes but they are readily overshadowed by bad weather. Trees are beautiful but money does not grow on trees and we are not “constructed” for eating and digesting trees. We have to work to get food. Forced laboring is not a joy. If there is no purpose, there is no need to be born.
Birth has been imposed on us by nature and with our naturally inbred urge to have sex we are imposing it on our off-spring. It is not our reasoned objective but an inborn urge that creates more humans.
Our planet is basically a ball of fire, bursting at the seams, cruel for life. Oh yes, it is lovely when the sun shines in spring, but greedy, careless and misguided people have caused overcrowding and “pollution” of the environment. We must stop breeding and change our bad actions.

[jayjacobus]

Birth has been imposed on us by nature and with our naturally inbred urge to have sex we are imposing it on our off-spring. It is not our reasoned objective but an inborn urge that creates more humans.
Our planet is basically a ball of fire, bursting at the seams, cruel for life. Oh yes, it is lovely when the sun shines in spring, but greedy, careless and misguided people have caused overcrowding and “pollution” of the environment. We must stop breeding and change our bad actions.

Purpose depends on the person making his/her judgment and that person's criteria and perspective. Some people live a charmed life and still have a negative perspective. Other people have been seriously harmed but keep picking themselves back up. Is that a mystery or is that understandable because we are all different? I'm going to side with the person who picks himself back up. He/she gets my vote and is a worthwhile model for me to work toward.

Have I lead a charmed life? Not even close but I learned from my troubles and now I am more capable of dealing with trouble and thank goodness for that. Goodness is a perspective that you might try on.

[Ferdi]

Purpose depends on the person making his/her judgment and that person's criteria and perspective. Some people live a charmed life and still have a negative perspective. Other people have been seriously harmed but keep picking themselves back up. Is that a mystery or is that understandable because we are all different? I'm going to side with the person who picks himself back up. He/she gets my vote and is a worthwhile model for me to work toward.
Have I lead a charmed life? Not even close but I learned from my troubles and now I am more capable of dealing with trouble and thank goodness for that. Goodness is a perspective that you might try on.

I appreciate your perspective of Goodness but from my long life on 2 sides of the globe, with a good education but starting as a labourer with just a few $’s in my pocket, I managed to climb the ladder by becoming dedicated, not to the $, but to a profession. It seems naive to rely on the goodness of others; it is wishful thinking. The world’s harsh reality is evident from any news-media session. Let me note: solong as OPEC is allowed to set the world’s oil price, the rules of the jungle will apply.

[jayjacobus]

Purpose depends on the person making his/her judgment and that person's criteria and perspective. Some people live a charmed life and still have a negative perspective. Other people have been seriously harmed but keep picking themselves back up. Is that a mystery or is that understandable because we are all different? I'm going to side with the person who picks himself back up. He/she gets my vote and is a worthwhile model for me to work toward.
Have I lead a charmed life? Not even close but I learned from my troubles and now I am more capable of dealing with trouble and thank goodness for that. Goodness is a perspective that you might try on.

I appreciate your perspective of Goodness but from my long life on 2 sides of the globe, with a good education but starting as a labourer with just a few $’s in my pocket, I managed to climb the ladder by becoming dedicated, not to the $, but to a profession. It seems naive to rely on the goodness of others; it is wishful thinking. The world’s harsh reality is evident from any news-media session. Let me note: solong as OPEC is allowed to set the world’s oil price, the rules of the jungle will apply.

I do know that people think as you do. I don't and my thinking is good for me to have.

[Lacewing]

When watching a birth we see the arrival of a fully grown alive fetus. It may not have life yet but will be awaiting the arrival of its “life”. Some manipulations from the attending expert may reveal that “life” has suddenly entered. The baby “has come to life”, but where did that “life” come from ? Does life just come from the infinity of space in our room? Similarly, while observing a peacefully dying person, life can be seen to be still present until, at some instant, we can “see” that the person’s life has departed. That “life” must have returned to the infinity of space in our room.
Lives come and go all the time, but where from and where to ? It is obvious that there must be an origin and a destination for all those lives. To me that is INFINITY !

I like the way you've described this Ferdi.

Yes, there is a difference between an organic vessel and the "liveness" that animates and fills that vessel.

I think of liveness as something like a creative breath of the infinite -- which doesn't come from or go anywhere "else" (because human ideas of time and space really don't apply). And there is no one or no thing "breathing", rather it's just perfect energy naturally manifesting and revolving in infinite ways. Beautiful!

[Ferdi]

I do know that people think as you do. I don't and my thinking is good for me to have.

I am puzzled by your comment. Like each of us, you are free to think what you like, but how do you "know what people think" other than those relatively few you may have been in contact with?
I look for facts.

[Ferdi]

When watching a birth we see the arrival of a fully grown alive fetus. It may not have life yet but will be awaiting the arrival of its “life”. Some manipulations from the attending expert may reveal that “life” has suddenly entered. The baby “has come to life”, but where did that “life” come from ? Does life just come from the infinity of space in our room? Similarly, while observing a peacefully dying person, life can be seen to be still present until, at some instant, we can “see” that the person’s life has departed. That “life” must have returned to the infinity of space in our room.
Lives come and go all the time, but where from and where to ? It is obvious that there must be an origin and a destination for all those lives. To me that is INFINITY !

I like the way you've described this Ferdi.

Yes, there is a difference between an organic vessel and the "liveness" that animates and fills that vessel.

I think of liveness as something like a creative breath of the infinite -- which doesn't come from or go anywhere "else" (because human ideas of time and space really don't apply). And there is no one or no thing "breathing", rather it's just perfect energy naturally manifesting and revolving in infinite ways. Beautiful!

I see a difference between the chemical assemblies of lifeless matter and that of matter with life: micro-life, plants, animals with humans at the top of the pecking order.

[Dontaskme]

We exist in an infinite space; infinity includes infinitely small, penetrating all. Our ideas of dimensions of space and time do not apply to infinity; inherently beyond our grasp.
About a person’s “soul”; it is what drives us, “being” here, our presence, conscience and free will, enables us to make some choices.
When watching a birth we see the arrival of a fully grown alive fetus. It may not have life yet but will be awaiting the arrival of its “life”. Some manipulations from the attending expert may reveal that “life” has suddenly entered. The baby “has come to life”, but where did that “life” come from ? Does life just come from the infinity of space in our room? Similarly, while observing a peacefully dying person, life can be seen to be still present until, at some instant, we can “see” that the person’s life has departed. That “life” must have returned to the infinity of space in our room.
Lives come and go all the time, but where from and where to ? It is obvious that there must be an origin and a destination for all those lives. To me that is INFINITY !

The human being is just a sophisticated version of a tubeworm, it's got no more meaning or purpose other than the function of every other living functioning creature.

Knowledge of birth and death is a fictional story arising within the sentience self aware creature that is unique to the human being who believes it has a mind. But on closer inspection it can be seen that the mind of knowledge informs only the illusion of separation aka the dream of being within a space-time duality, in that concepts known are known by NOT-A-THING known, and that the mind is the only APPARENT divider of reality. . albeit illusory. Concepts aka knowledge is that which mind is identified with within it's own illusory constructed world of separation as existing in and of itself...but is NOT

However, there is no mind in reality. There is no reality, for infinity never happens/happened except in the illusory dream of separation that is the apparent mind of things, aka imagination. Therefore in the context of illusory knowledge: That which lives never dies, and That which dies never lives. Except in this illusory conception, within the dream of separation no thing is dreaming. You are THAT and so AM I

If there is knowledge of a human birth then that same knowledge that knows human birth can be used to stop human birth from coming into existence. Knowledge can allow the peace of the unborn to remain unborn, this is simply known because knowledge of the born cannot be known without it's opposite unborn. So the unborn are not missing out on anything at all by not being born. The unborn cannot desire what they have no knowledge of. To bring the unborn into existence knowing what is already known is a violation of the unborns peace. By knowingly creating new lives is sentencing them to death and a life of suffering to boot. Knowledge is suffering. If you had prior knowledge of your entire life existence before you were born would you agree to it? and yet we impose that existence on every new life we choose to recreate. Anything in reality that has knowledge of itself will be born to suffer that same knowledge.

"I was waiting for something extraordinary to happen, but as the years wasted on nothing ever did unless I caused it…" – Charles Bukowski

Infinity never happens/happened. Life is a dream dreamt by no one full stop.

The human model of infinity is inseparable from the figment of self-deception.

As philosopher John N. Gray pointed out “ humans cannot live without their illusions”.

For those whose illusions sustain them through life, in that they will replace one illusion with another as long as there is the desire to believe their illusion is real.

.

[Lacewing]

I see a difference between the chemical assemblies of lifeless matter and that of matter with life

Makes sense. Do you see it ALL as energy...in a multitude of forms and states?

[Age]

When watching a birth we see the arrival of a fully grown alive fetus. It may not have life yet but will be awaiting the arrival of its “life”. Some manipulations from the attending expert may reveal that “life” has suddenly entered. The baby “has come to life”, but where did that “life” come from ? Does life just come from the infinity of space in our room? Similarly, while observing a peacefully dying person, life can be seen to be still present until, at some instant, we can “see” that the person’s life has departed. That “life” must have returned to the infinity of space in our room.
Lives come and go all the time, but where from and where to ? It is obvious that there must be an origin and a destination for all those lives. To me that is INFINITY !

I like the way you've described this Ferdi.

Yes, there is a difference between an organic vessel and the "liveness" that animates and fills that vessel.

I think of liveness as something like a creative breath of the infinite -- which doesn't come from or go anywhere "else" (because human ideas of time and space really don't apply). And there is no one or no thing "breathing", rather it's just perfect energy naturally manifesting and revolving in infinite ways. Beautiful!

I see a difference between the chemical assemblies of lifeless matter and that of matter with life: micro-life, plants, animals with humans at the top of the pecking order.

Are you saying you see plants as matter with life, but the fetus in the womb as lifeless matter?

What examples do you observe as lifeless matter?

To me, ALL matter is with life, as it is alive. To me there is absolutely nothing in the Universe that is not alive and living.

Within infinity there could not be some things with life and some with none. Other than through a human being made up distinction, where would the separation between life and no life lay?

[surreptitious57]

Within infinity there could not be some things with life and some with none

What is your definition of life and non life / within infinity could non life become life