Can good God do evil?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Skepdick
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Skepdick » Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:00 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:56 pm
Good one.

The good/safety of the many, outweighs the good/safety of the few.

This might be the only moral tenet to be objective in an otherwise subjective list.

Governments and industry control robotic programming and experts are saying that the first law for robots is to not do anything to harm humans. In the scenario you posit, a computer would just crunch the numbers and end with what I just put above.
That's how the general thinking goes.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:56 pm
The algorithm that would save the 2 occupants while possibly killing three would likely be outlawed.
However, you (chose? forgot?) to answer the final question. Given the choice of either algorithm, would you buy a car that doesn't put your safety first? ;)

seeds
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by seeds » Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:52 pm

bahman wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:38 pm
I agree with all you stated.
If you agree with all that I stated about the Catholic depiction of God, then can you not understand the problem with your thread title?

I mean, if your thread title is in reference to the Catholic God, and the Catholic God is apparently going to torture billions of defenseless souls for ETERNITY in a dimension of reality called hell,...

...then how can you begin with the premise (or assumption) that the Catholic God is good?

In other words, how can the Catholic God be used in a philosophical debate concerning a dilemma of how a “good” God could do something evil when, in fact, the Catholic God is allegedly going to perform an act of evilness that takes the definition of evilness to a level beyond our comprehension?
bahman wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:38 pm
My problem is the tension between goodness and freedom. Do you agree that there is tension?
I cannot understand your question. Please reframe it so that it makes more sense.
_______

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Immanuel Can » Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:05 pm

seeds wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:52 pm
bahman wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:38 pm
My problem is the tension between goodness and freedom. Do you agree that there is tension?
I cannot understand your question. Please reframe it so that it makes more sense.
_______
I don't think that's where the "tension" is at all, actually.

There is a "tension," I think; but that's not it. Because there's no way to know if "freedom" is "good" or "evil." "Freedom" for a good person is plausibly good. "Freedom" for an axe-murderer would certainly be bad for everyone else.

The real tension is between mercy and justice. And it seems from your comment that you would be inclined to think that a God judges would be bad; but how would a God who fails to judge be good? It's one thing to ask, "Why would God send some people to a lost eternity?" But it's quite another to ask, "How could God let HItler, Stalin, Dahmer, Bernardo, Ghengis Khan, Nero and Pol Pot off the hook"?

So it seems you've got God in quite a bind: if He does judge, your supposition is that He's too harsh. If He doesn't judge, the the obvious supposition is that He's condoning evil.

Isn't that the real tension?

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Greatest I am
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Greatest I am » Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:06 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:00 pm
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:56 pm
Good one.

The good/safety of the many, outweighs the good/safety of the few.

This might be the only moral tenet to be objective in an otherwise subjective list.

Governments and industry control robotic programming and experts are saying that the first law for robots is to not do anything to harm humans. In the scenario you posit, a computer would just crunch the numbers and end with what I just put above.
That's how the general thinking goes.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:56 pm
The algorithm that would save the 2 occupants while possibly killing three would likely be outlawed.
However, you (chose? forgot?) to answer the final question. Given the choice of either algorithm, would you buy a car that doesn't put your safety first? ;)
Yes. Always. I would outlaw the opposite computer. That is the natural choice for any human male.
If he is a real man that is.

If I had to make a rule for a computer that insures the best end for all humans, I would say that the first computer law is such that the computer always puts women and children first and kills more men to save women and children. All a computer is is a counting machine so it has to go by the numbers.

If you think in demographic terms as well, it is the scientifically sound thing to do.

Regards
DL

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Greatest I am
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Greatest I am » Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:10 pm

bahman wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:38 pm
[
_______
I agree with all you stated. My problem is the tension between goodness and freedom. Do you agree that there is tension?
[/quote]

Of course.

Goodness can be gaged and freedom is something impossible for humans. We are tribal.

Regards
DL

Age
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Age » Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:40 am

Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:30 pm
Age wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:58 am

By the way 'God' is not a "he".
What an incredible statement.

You know this as a fact, how?

Regards
DL
Because I KNOW what 'God' IS.

Age
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Age » Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:11 am

Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:36 pm
Age wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:13 pm

Scriptures are NOT clear,

Why do people who BELIEVE or DISBELIEVE God use the bible as though EVERY word in it is written directly from God, Itself, and then EVERY word means exactly whatever the person reading thinks or believes it means?
The scriptures I spoke of are quite clear.
If you say so. But, if you do, then you also MUST also be able to explain clearly what the scriptures actually mean as well.

So, when the scriptures that you speak of say quite clearly state that 'God' is a "he", then what do the scriptures quite clearly mean exactly?
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:36 pm
Better than 70 % of Christians, one might even say 100%, claim that Jesus is real.
Considering the word 'christian' is a definition for a follow of 'jesus christ', then I would say 100% is a closer figure. BUT, so what? What is the point you are trying to make here?

Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:36 pm
They have to be reading at least some of the bible literally to reach that conclusion.

Regards
DL
Are you at all aware that how 'you' literally read some thing can be very different from how "another" literally reads some thing? This is because you both have different definitions for the words that you both are reading. Now, if you were not at all aware of this before, then you are now.

So, when and if you are going to state some thing like: The scriptures clearly state some thing, and/or, the scriptures literally state some thing, then you will have to be very clear and very specific what you are actually referring to exactly, from YOUR perspective. Because I have NO idea how you 'literally' read things.

For example; you talked about some "noah's genocidal flood" as though you know exactly what that term, literally, means. You have also said that the scriptures that you speak of are quite clear. Would you now like to explain quite clearly what 'noah's genocidal flood', literally, means?

If you would not like to and do not, then I totally and completely understand WHY.
If, however, you would like to explain, then go right ahead.

You have also quite clearly written and stated;
Evil is not usually justifiable unless it leads to some greater good.

In the case of an Omnipotent god, who would have a great power of persuasion and still does evil, would always be wrong or unjustifiable.


And that:
This fact is why it is so hard to get a Christian to chat about the immoral actions of god like genocide and infanticide.

IF you really think it is so hard to get "another" to chat about this totally twisted version of some thing, then how about you starting the chat by EXPLAINING what 'genocide' and 'infanticide' exactly, which you are referring to. THEN I will discuss this FULLY with you.

And then, how OPEN or not 'you' really ARE will be SHOWN. Just may be the reason 'you' find it so hard to get "others" to chat about the immoral actions of God like genocide and infanticide is actually because of 'you', and your inabilities at the moment, to SEE things other than what you ALREADY BELIEVE is true and right.

We will just have to wait and SEE. I WILL discuss the above AND absolutely any thing else that you want. However, getting you CLOSED human beings to openly and honestly speak about things is much harder. WHEN you start to clarify what you are talking about, then we can proceed. Until you start saying what you actually mean, then this is the real reason WHY it is so hard to people, like 'you', adult human beings, to chat.

Age
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Age » Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:31 am

Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
Age wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:15 pm
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:03 pm


Indeed. Yin without Yang is a foolish notion.

Regards
DL
There can be yin with yang and still NO need to do some thing.

You do NOT have to do evil but you choose to, and 'you' can still exist.
We do have to do what some will see as evil to survive.
If you want to make a statement, claim it to be true like you have done here, and want it accepted and understood, then you have to give some examples, and then wait for clarifying questions.

Why do only 'some' see what 'you' do, to survive, as evil?
What do the "others" see?
What examples of 'evil' are you talking about here?
And, what does 'evil' actually mean, to you?

Until you start explaining, then your statement is clearly wrong and false, to me.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
That is rather a long story.
If it is worth sharing, then the earlier you start then the better.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
Can you help but do evil?
I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?
WHAT are you talking about here?

WHAT is THIS about, and what is it in relation to exactly?
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by putting forward their free will argument and placing all the blame on mankind.
Who cares what people who you label and call "christians" "are always trying to absolve"? If you want thee Truth, then stick to what you SEE and KNOW.

By the way WHO do you put the blame on for what 'you', human beings, do?
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
That usually sounds like ----God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy. Such statements simply avoid God's culpability as the author and creator of human nature.
Let us start by you clearly explaining WHAT 'human nature' IS exactly?

Then you explaining HOW God is culpable? Do you even think God is real?

Do you even think human beings have 'free will'?

Just maybe, as I stated earlier, it is 'you', and YOUR BELIEFS, that is STOPPING you from SEEING the actual Truth of things here.

How about you state your BELIEFS first, then it will become CLEAR to every one reading this WHY "it is so hard" for you to chat with "others" about these type of things?
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
Free will is only the ability to choose.
I agree. Are you saying that human beings do not have the ability to choose?

It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). [/quote]

Was that even being questioned?
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place.
Okay if you say so. So, why do we not LOOK AT this?

Again, what do 'you' propose is the 'nature' given to human beings by God?

The story of adam and eve can be simply explained, very easily. That is; to those who are OPEN to hearing and listening to it.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.
Okay. So you have concluded that God is capable. I say God is responsible for EVERY thing. So, now what do we do?

Do you want to keep following your own thoughts, assumptions and beliefs? Or, do you want to LISTEN to other perspectives of things?

If God is FULLY culpable, and thus also FULLY responsible, and God being omnipotent and ALL-knowing, then maybe just LISTENING to some thing else other than your own ASSUMPTIONS and BELIEFS, then you WILL learn HOW every thing can be corrected and put back onto the right path?
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
If all do evil/sin by nature then, the evil/sin nature is dominant.
WHY is this necessarily so?

If the logic to argue this is sound and valid, then, If all do good by nature, then the good nature is dominant.

Your logic and argument does not work.

By the way it could very easily be argued that ALL do good, but only some do evil/sin/bad.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
If not, we would have at least some who would not do evil/sin. Can we then help but do evil?
Yes.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
I do not see how. Do you?
Yes.

Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil and sin is all human generated and in this sense, I agree with Christians, but for completely different reasons. [/quote]

If you are at all interested I agree with ALL the truth in every thing and disagree with ALL the falsehoods in every thing.

Also what IS a 'gnostic christian naturalist' exactly?
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
Evil is mankind’s responsibility and not some imaginary God’s.
Okay. So now we will have to LOOK AT the above from another perspective.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
Free will is something that can only be taken. Free will cannot be given not even by a God unless it has been forcibly withheld.
Okay, if you say so. But how about 'free will' is just some thing human beings have?

By the way, to me, human beings having a 'free will' nature is completely equal to human beings also having a 'deterministic' nature. Both 'free will' and 'determined' are just naturally within human beings. This is just how they have evolved in creation.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
Much has been written to explain evil and sin but I see as a natural part of evolution.
Just about ALL that has been written to explain 'evil' and 'sin' is a misconstrued version of thee Truth of things.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil.
Perfect.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created. Without intent to do evil, no act should be called evil.
In secular courts, this is called mens rea. Latin for an evil mind or intent and without it, the court will not find someone guilty even if they know that they are the perpetrator of the act.

Evil then is only human to human when they know they are doing evil and intend harm.
Okay. For interest sake I just call this 'bad', compared to 'wrong'. To me, intending to hurt or harm is 'bad', while unintentionally doing hurt or harm is 'wrong'.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
'

Agreed. We can do one OR the other.

We do what we WANT and CHOOSE to do.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil, at all times.
'

Or, some one might be, or is 'trying to' be, cooperating with "others", while ALL of the "others" just are, or are 'trying to' be, competing with that one?

NOT EVERY one has to be doing what EVERY one ELSE is doing.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.
Why?

How is competing, or in your words "doing evil", keeping us from extinction. On first glance, to me, this seems absurd and a contradiction of terms.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.
So, to you, "We would likely go extinct without competition and evil".

Now, this is probably the biggest example of an attempt at 'trying to' "justify" one's obviously wrong and bad or evil behaviors that I have ever seen and heard.

The logic that was used to reason out, which led to this conclusion would make great reading. Would you like to share the logic and reasoning you used to arrive at such a conclusion?

But first let us just hear again what one human being uses as a "justification" for ALL human beings to just keep on doing evil: "We would likely go extinct without competition and evil. In other words: If you do not keep on competing with "others" and doing evil, then we would likely go extinct".

Do you pass on this "justified" piece of advice directly like this to the children you know?
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, you should see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us.
But I am NOT a believer in any thing other than; thee Real and True Self, which is able to accomplish any thing that It sets out to do.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
Wherever it came from, God or nature, without evolution we would go extinct.
Is there any difference between 'God' and 'Nature'?

What I SEE is; without evolution 'we', human beings, would not be HERE-NOW. But this is NOT to say; without evolution 'we', human beings, can STILL go extinct.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
We must do good and evil.
If you say we MUST do good and evil, then we MUST continue to do good AND 'evil'. Thank you for this "worldly and wise" piece of advice. I will use it as a "justification" EVERY time from now on for ALL the 'evil' I MUST continue to do.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue.
Nor on any other issue that I can SEE and have observed either. I agree there is NO conflict between Nature AND God on any thing.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
This is how things are and should be.
Is there any possibility that this is NOT how things are and should be on ALL of what you have written above? Or, are you just incapable of being wrong any where?
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.
To 'WHAT' competition.

I do NOT SEE that there HAS TO be competition ANY where. I have certainly NOT observed ANY reason for WHY there is competition nor a NEED for competition also. However, in saying that, I do observe adult human beings continuously competing, which is obviously leading tremendously to their downfall.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
This link speak to theistic evolution.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-new ... 66/?no-ist

If theistic evolution is true, then the myth of Eden should be read as a myth and there is not really any original sin.
But there IS original 'sin'.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
Doing evil then is actually forced on us by evolution and the need to survive.
As I have said previously; Human beings will 'try' absolutely any thing to align things with their ALREADY HELD BELIEFS and ASSUMPTIONS, and to 'try to' "justify" their wrong doings.

This here is another great example of the type of misbehavior used by the human being animal.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
Our default position is to cooperate or to do good.
So WHY do 'you' NOT stay on your default position, instead of deviating away from it?
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
I offer this clip as proof of this. You will note that we default to good as it is better for survival.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBW5vdhr_PA

Can you help but do evil?
No. I can always only do good and NOT do evil.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
I do not see how.
Okay. This might be because you LOOK AT things from your own assumptions and beliefs, and therefore you are NOT fully OPEN.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
Do you?
Yes. It is very easy to SEE how to NOT do evil. But there are some other things that you need to learn and know first.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Regards
DL
Who is distorted or twisted enough to think or believe that God is punishing them anyway?

Age
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Age » Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:37 am

bahman wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:29 pm
Age wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:11 am
bahman wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:41 pm

God which I am aiming is the Catholic God who is the creator and goodness, buy goodness I mean that God always does good. I was wondering about a tension between goodness and freedom, by freedom I mean He has the ability to freely decide and do anything.
Look, God is NOT a "he".
I am referring to the Catholic God. They call God Him.
I do NOT care what any one calls any thing. God IS what It IS. If you want to LOOK AT and SEE the Truth of things, then it helps if you speak thee Truth first.

Do some people call God a 'he'?

If yes, then so be it.
If no, then why call God a 'he'?

Is God a 'he'?

If yes, then how?
If no, then how do you know?

When you speak thee Truth, only thee Truth, and nothing but thee Truth, then you will HAVE thee Truth.
bahman wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:29 pm
Age wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:11 am
Thee God that creates and is free, does, and is, just 'that'. The God that has the ability to freely decide and do anything, is just like how human beings have the ability to freely decide and do anything, with enough time, also

God always does good, human beings however do good AND bad.

Is there any thing else that you are looking for?
And what about the tension between goodness and freedom?
'WHAT' "tension" between 'goodness' and 'freedom' are you talking about now?

I have NOT observed nor SEEN any so called "tension" between the two.

Age
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Age » Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:42 am

Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:24 pm
frosteagle wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:09 pm
If the Devil does not exist, we would not know God. If Evil did not exist, we would not know good, just neutrality. From utilitarian ethical theory, absolute good is evil because it prevents good. If I assume God is real, he is evil because he is good because you cannot be good without being evil.
In a dualistic world, it could not be otherwise and the same condition applies to all of us who admit to having both good and evil sides.

It is a good thing that humans default to their good sides and not their evil sides.

Nature gives us both sides but knows that our survival is best served by cooperation/good instead of competition/evil.

We all have to do some evil though to survive.
Will you provide any examples of this? And will you be OPEN enough to them NOT actually being 'evil' and/or them NOT actually being necessary for human beings survival?
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:24 pm
That is why we create hates biases the moment we create a love bias.

Regards
DL
I do NOT create a 'hate bias' if, and when, I create a 'love bias'. Unless, of course, you can SHOW otherwise.

Age
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Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Age » Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:44 am

Skepdick wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:35 pm
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:29 pm
How can you say you have no way of knowing good from evil?

In general terms, do you not know what you like? Do you not know what you dislike?
I edited my comment to make that exact point.

Without innate morality it's impossible to tell good from evil.
That is WHY innate MORAL KNOWING is ALREADY within.

'you' just NEED to be OPEN to hearing and seeing It.

Age
Posts: 3288
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Age » Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:58 am

Skepdick wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:39 pm
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:29 pm
Pick any moral issue and I will walk you through it if you cannot land on it being good or evil.
But since you are offering - I'll take you up on the challenge.

We live in the world of autonomous/self-driving vehicles. We are already in a place where these vehicles can predict impact/accident as has happened with Tesla cars.

In the event of an unavoidable accident what should the self-driving car optimise for: protecting its occupants, or minimising casualties, even if it means killing its occupants?

e.g swerve on the sidewalk and kill 3 children, or swerve off the cliff and kill 2 passengers.
Who are the people EXACTLY?

What diseases do the bodies have?

There are countless variables that NEED to be discussed FIRST, before you program a car to kill human beings.

WHY are 'you', human beings, making self-driving cars for anyway?

'you' could and did "walk out of africa", but now you appear to be just too lazy to even drive your own selves in motorized and air-conditioned vehicles relatively very short distances?

Why do 'you', human beings, not spend the same time and effort working out how you can STOP polluting the one and only home that you have and NEED, instead of working out how you can just stay connected on your devices while you get from one place to another, for example, without having to drive your self?
Skepdick wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:39 pm
And to make it even more tricky. If cars with both algorithms existed - which one would you buy?
Which one would you 'optimize' the car to do?

Which kind of car do you REALLY want? One that kills a few, or many? Or, only cares about you and NOT "others"?

But REALLY these are NOT REALLY 'moral issues' anyway. These are just choices about what one human being would do in a very specific circumstance. And, I might add, a very specific circumstance where not ALL of the variables are provided anyway, but just only a relatively small few are.

Age
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Age » Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:09 am

Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:56 pm
Skepdick wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:39 pm
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:29 pm
Pick any moral issue and I will walk you through it if you cannot land on it being good or evil.
But since you are offering - I'll take you up on the challenge.

We live in the world of autonomous/self-driving vehicles. We are already in a place where these vehicles can predict impact/accident as has happened with Tesla cars.

In the event of an unavoidable accident what should the self-driving car optimise for: protecting its occupants, or minimising casualties, even if it means killing its occupants?

e.g swerve on the sidewalk and kill 3 children, or swerve off the cliff and kill 2 passengers.

And to make it even more tricky. If cars with both algorithms existed - which one would you buy?
Good one.

The good/safety of the many, outweighs the good/safety of the few.

This might be the only moral tenet to be objective in an otherwise subjective list.

Governments and industry control robotic programming and experts are saying that the first law for robots is to not do anything to harm humans.
So, a robot could, for all intended purposes, harm earth, for example, without ever realizing or knowing that it is doing any thing to harm human beings?

If a human being accidentally forgets to program in an outcome for absolutely EVERY actual possible variable, then it does NOT matter what laws are made up. Governments, royalty, and industry has controlled 'you', human beings, with rules, laws, and fear for thousands of years, without much success. Continuing on that same path into robots may be even far less successful for yourselves.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:56 pm
In the scenario you posit, a computer would just crunch the numbers and end with what I just put above.

The algorithm that would save the 2 occupants while possibly killing three would likely be outlawed.

Regards
DL
Human beings just considering these stupid so called "trolley problems", without even considering the REALLY big and True picture, just shows how inconsiderate they really are. Most adult human beings have got to a stage that ALL they ever really consider and think about is themselves only.

I wonder when human beings will start SEEING that 'morality' does NOT revolve around human beings, and NEVER has, and start LOOKING AT this Truth?

Age
Posts: 3288
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Age » Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:17 am

Skepdick wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:00 pm
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:56 pm
Good one.

The good/safety of the many, outweighs the good/safety of the few.

This might be the only moral tenet to be objective in an otherwise subjective list.

Governments and industry control robotic programming and experts are saying that the first law for robots is to not do anything to harm humans. In the scenario you posit, a computer would just crunch the numbers and end with what I just put above.
That's how the general thinking goes.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:56 pm
The algorithm that would save the 2 occupants while possibly killing three would likely be outlawed.
However, you (chose? forgot?) to answer the final question. Given the choice of either algorithm, would you buy a car that doesn't put your safety first? ;)
We KNOW what YOUR answer IS.

Age
Posts: 3288
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Age » Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:28 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:05 pm
seeds wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:52 pm
bahman wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:38 pm
My problem is the tension between goodness and freedom. Do you agree that there is tension?
I cannot understand your question. Please reframe it so that it makes more sense.
_______
I don't think that's where the "tension" is at all, actually.

There is a "tension," I think; but that's not it. Because there's no way to know if "freedom" is "good" or "evil." "Freedom" for a good person is plausibly good. "Freedom" for an axe-murderer would certainly be bad for everyone else.
To 'you', human beings, who keep using the phrase 'good people or good person', just to let you KNOW there is NO such thing.

Saying; "a good person" is like saying "God is a he", both are just plain and clearly ABSURD and WRONG.

ALL people do some good and ALL people do some wrong. ALL people are equal in this regard. So, when, and IF, you STOP LOOKING AT each other as better or worse than "others", then you WILL start REALLY progressing and moving FORWARD.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:05 pm
The real tension is between mercy and justice. And it seems from your comment that you would be inclined to think that a God judges would be bad; but how would a God who fails to judge be good? It's one thing to ask, "Why would God send some people to a lost eternity?" But it's quite another to ask, "How could God let HItler, Stalin, Dahmer, Bernardo, Ghengis Khan, Nero and Pol Pot off the hook"?
Instead of LOOKING AT these people as bad or evil and 'you' each judging them yourselves, WHY NOT LOOK AT WHY they did what they did, and then you WILL KNOW how to prevent "others" growing up doing the same? If you truly judge behaviors as bad or evil, then do what it takes to PREVENT and STOP those behaviors. Sitting there in judgement, as though 'you' personally are some high and mighty one, while completely and utterly dumbfounded as to WHY human beings do what you do is NOT getting anywhere.

So it seems you've got God in quite a bind: if He does judge, your supposition is that He's too harsh. If He doesn't judge, the the obvious supposition is that He's condoning evil.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:05 pm
Isn't that the real tension?
If you say so. But, from my perspective, you are just 'trying to' "justify" your own BELIEFS.

By the way IF 'you', human beings, STOP, to find out WHY you have so misconstrued "eternity in hell" or "eternity in heaven" terms so WRONG, then you will get past this issue that 'you' have been stuck on for at least two thousands of years now.

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