Can good God do evil?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Age
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Age » Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:15 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:03 pm
-1- wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:14 am
Erm... if god is good, he won't do evil...in this case he is not omnipotent. His actions are curtailed by a whole set of activities.

If god is omnipotent, he will do both good and evil.
Indeed. Yin without Yang is a foolish notion.

Regards
DL
There can be yin with yang and still NO need to do some thing.

You do NOT have to do evil but you choose to, and 'you' can still exist.

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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Greatest I am » Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:30 pm

Age wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:58 am

By the way 'God' is not a "he".
What an incredible statement.

You know this as a fact, how?

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DL

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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Greatest I am » Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:36 pm

Age wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:13 pm

Scriptures are NOT clear,

Why do people who BELIEVE or DISBELIEVE God use the bible as though EVERY word in it is written directly from God, Itself, and then EVERY word means exactly whatever the person reading thinks or believes it means?
The scriptures I spoke of are quite clear.

Better than 70 % of Christians, one might even say 100%, claim that Jesus is real. They have to be reading at least some of the bible literally to reach that conclusion.

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DL

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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Greatest I am » Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm

Age wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:15 pm
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:03 pm
-1- wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:14 am
Erm... if god is good, he won't do evil...in this case he is not omnipotent. His actions are curtailed by a whole set of activities.

If god is omnipotent, he will do both good and evil.
Indeed. Yin without Yang is a foolish notion.

Regards
DL
There can be yin with yang and still NO need to do some thing.

You do NOT have to do evil but you choose to, and 'you' can still exist.
We do have to do what some will see as evil to survive.

That is rather a long story.

Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by putting forward their free will argument and placing all the blame on mankind.
That usually sounds like ----God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy. Such statements simply avoid God's culpability as the author and creator of human nature.

Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all do evil/sin by nature then, the evil/sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not do evil/sin. Can we then help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil and sin is all human generated and in this sense, I agree with Christians, but for completely different reasons. Evil is mankind’s responsibility and not some imaginary God’s. Free will is something that can only be taken. Free will cannot be given not even by a God unless it has been forcibly withheld.

Much has been written to explain evil and sin but I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created. Without intent to do evil, no act should be called evil.
In secular courts, this is called mens rea. Latin for an evil mind or intent and without it, the court will not find someone guilty even if they know that they are the perpetrator of the act.

Evil then is only human to human when they know they are doing evil and intend harm.

As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil, at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, you should see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us. Wherever it came from, God or nature, without evolution we would go extinct. We must do good and evil.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

This link speak to theistic evolution.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-new ... 66/?no-ist

If theistic evolution is true, then the myth of Eden should be read as a myth and there is not really any original sin.

Doing evil then is actually forced on us by evolution and the need to survive. Our default position is to cooperate or to do good. I offer this clip as proof of this. You will note that we default to good as it is better for survival.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBW5vdhr_PA

Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Regards
DL

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bahman
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by bahman » Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:29 pm

Age wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:11 am
bahman wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:41 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:59 am


The only definition of 'God' that you are providing is that 'God is good', and you say that a good person can do evil, so then I would say Yes a 'good God' has the ability to do evil.

Are you satisfied now?

I am, however, still unsure what argument you are actually seeking. I do not even know how you are defining the word 'evil' here.

From my perspective ALL people can do evil and ALL adult human beings do do 'evil'. Does that help you?

So, if human beings can do 'evil' and they only have the ability to create some things, then I would say a God (good or not), which has the ability to create ALL things, also could do 'evil', and I am sure there are some people who say that God does do some 'evil' things. However, to me, even though a 'good God' has the ability to do 'evil', but never actually does 'evil'.

So, and just to repeat to make clear, to answer your question; Yes a 'good God' has the ability to do evil.

However, whether a God (good or not) actually does do 'evil' or not can be and will be explained when the words 'God' and 'evil' are defined once and for all, for me.
God which I am aiming is the Catholic God who is the creator and goodness, buy goodness I mean that God always does good. I was wondering about a tension between goodness and freedom, by freedom I mean He has the ability to freely decide and do anything.
Look, God is NOT a "he".
I am referring to the Catholic God. They call God Him.
Age wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:11 am
Thee God that creates and is free, does, and is, just 'that'. The God that has the ability to freely decide and do anything, is just like how human beings have the ability to freely decide and do anything, with enough time, also

God always does good, human beings however do good AND bad.

Is there any thing else that you are looking for?
And what about the tension between goodness and freedom?

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bahman
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by bahman » Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:38 pm

seeds wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:12 am
seeds wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:35 pm
bahman wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:41 pm
God which I am aiming is the Catholic God...
If such is the case, then shouldn’t the title of your thread be:

Can the Catholic God do evil?
bahman wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:41 pm
God which I am aiming is the Catholic God who is the creator and goodness, buy [sic] goodness I mean that God always does good.
Do you mean to frame it as a God who “always” does good, or a God who “only” does good?

However, either way, when it comes to the Catholic God, then I would suggest that any Being who would create and then send a defenseless soul into a context of everlasting (eternal) torture in a dimension of reality called hell,...

...takes the definition of evilness to a whole new level.
bahman wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:46 pm
People say that Hell is a matter of choice. Some people want it over goodness of Heaven. How do you answer this?
First of all, I answer it by saying that the whole concept of hell is total nonsense.

Secondly...

(and just for the sake of addressing your question from the perspective of a horrifying thought experiment)

...I’d say that if the choice between heaven and hell is one that is truly up to the individual, then to be fair, the Catholic God should give that individual an actual glimpse of heaven first.

Then after allowing them to see the beauty of heaven, the Catholic God should then attach a chain to their feet and then dip them for 5 minutes into a vat of molten steel...

...(while making sure that they do not die, and that their sense of pain remains intact throughout the ordeal).

Now of course, I am being melodramatic about this, but in the highly doubtful instance that they weren’t driven completely insane during that 5 minute sampling of hell, what do you suppose their choice would be?

Thirdly, you seem to have missed the point about the absurdity of attributing any semblance of goodness to a Being (such as the Catholic God) who is capable and willing to inflict everlasting torture upon billions of defenseless souls.

It is literally infinitely worse, but assigning the quality of “goodness” to such a God is like saying that a serial murderer who savagely and sadistically tortures his victims before strangling them, is a good person because he treats his pet snake with kindness, or paints lovely landscape murals.

And lastly, but not leastly, if hell does indeed exist, then consider what a brazen lie it would be for the humans who made it to heaven to think that God and heaven represent the locus and source of “goodness” when, in fact,...

(and assuming they are not functioning at some bovine level of consciousness, plopping down heavenly cow pies in heavenly pastures)

...they have no choice but to conclude that all of the billions of humans being tortured in hell are actually their own mothers, and fathers, and sisters, and brothers, and wives, and husbands, and children, etc., etc.

I mean, would you not at this very moment attempt to move heaven and earth to save a loved one from some madman’s torture chamber?

So what happens to the heaven dwellers’ sense of outrage and disgust for someone who tortures others?

Again, this whole business of hell and punishment after death is total nonsense.
_______
I agree with all you stated. My problem is the tension between goodness and freedom. Do you agree that there is tension?

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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by attofishpi » Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:09 pm

bahman wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:27 pm
Does good God have the ability to do evil? If yes, is His evil act justifiable just because He is God?
Well that's justified then after i had an abortion and 'he' 'it' made me suffer more than Christ.

The irony is obvious - Christ came back alive and basically said 'hey you of little faith, look how God controls ALL life."

So why did that c^nt do what it did to me?

Was it justified, and vanquished its own evil?


NAH God is evil as the struggle for life as an unjust universe is evil.

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frosteagle
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by frosteagle » Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:09 pm

If the Devil does not exist, we would not know God. If Evil did not exist, we would not know good, just neutrality. From utilitarian ethical theory, absolute good is evil because it prevents good. If I assume God is real, he is evil because he is good because you cannot be good without being evil.

Skepdick
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Skepdick » Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:22 pm

frosteagle wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:09 pm
If the Devil does not exist, we would not know God. If Evil did not exist, we would not know good, just neutrality.
It doesn't solve anything. Even if we accept that both the Devil and God exist, we have no way of knowing who's the 'good' guy and who's the 'evil' guy without an innate moral compass.

What if God's is actually the evil guy trash-talking Satan in his self-published book?

All we know about Satan is hearsay.
Last edited by Skepdick on Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:28 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Greatest I am
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Greatest I am » Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:24 pm

frosteagle wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:09 pm
If the Devil does not exist, we would not know God. If Evil did not exist, we would not know good, just neutrality. From utilitarian ethical theory, absolute good is evil because it prevents good. If I assume God is real, he is evil because he is good because you cannot be good without being evil.
In a dualistic world, it could not be otherwise and the same condition applies to all of us who admit to having both good and evil sides.

It is a good thing that humans default to their good sides and not their evil sides.

Nature gives us both sides but knows that our survival is best served by cooperation/good instead of competition/evil.

We all have to do some evil though to survive. That is why we create hates biases the moment we create a love bias.

Regards
DL

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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Greatest I am » Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:29 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:22 pm
frosteagle wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:09 pm
If the Devil does not exist, we would not know God. If Evil did not exist, we would not know good, just neutrality.
It doesn't solve anything. Even if we accept that both the Devil and God exist, we have no way of knowing who's the 'good' guy who's the 'evil' guy?

What if Satan is the good guy and God's the evil guy trash-talking Satan in his self-published book?
Goth is not my thing but I like the words this guy puts out. Then again, I am one of the good Christians, a Gnostic Christian.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNcRXeCzpno

How can you say you have no way of knowing good from evil?

In general terms, do you not know what you like? Do you not know what you dislike?

I bet you do.

Pick any moral issue and I will walk you through it if you cannot land on it being good or evil.

Regards
DL

Skepdick
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Skepdick » Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:35 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:29 pm
How can you say you have no way of knowing good from evil?

In general terms, do you not know what you like? Do you not know what you dislike?
I edited my comment to make that exact point.

Without innate morality it's impossible to tell good from evil.

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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Skepdick » Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:39 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:29 pm
Pick any moral issue and I will walk you through it if you cannot land on it being good or evil.
But since you are offering - I'll take you up on the challenge.

We live in the world of autonomous/self-driving vehicles. We are already in a place where these vehicles can predict impact/accident as has happened with Tesla cars.

In the event of an unavoidable accident what should the self-driving car optimise for: protecting its occupants, or minimising casualties, even if it means killing its occupants?

e.g swerve on the sidewalk and kill 3 children, or swerve off the cliff and kill 2 passengers.

And to make it even more tricky. If cars with both algorithms existed - which one would you buy?

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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Greatest I am » Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:44 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:35 pm
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:29 pm
How can you say you have no way of knowing good from evil?

In general terms, do you not know what you like? Do you not know what you dislike?
I edited my comment to make that exact point.

Without innate morality it's impossible to tell good from evil.
Hmm. Language is a bitch.

We have an innate survival instinct. Because of how it works, we have decided to call what it produces morals.

That same survival instinct, if needs be, will do what we would call immoral.
It could then be said that our instincts are amoral and will guide us to survive with moral actions or immoral actions depending on the conditions at hand.

I know this is knit picking a bit. We are on the same page buddy.

Regards
DL

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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Greatest I am » Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:56 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:39 pm
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:29 pm
Pick any moral issue and I will walk you through it if you cannot land on it being good or evil.
But since you are offering - I'll take you up on the challenge.

We live in the world of autonomous/self-driving vehicles. We are already in a place where these vehicles can predict impact/accident as has happened with Tesla cars.

In the event of an unavoidable accident what should the self-driving car optimise for: protecting its occupants, or minimising casualties, even if it means killing its occupants?

e.g swerve on the sidewalk and kill 3 children, or swerve off the cliff and kill 2 passengers.

And to make it even more tricky. If cars with both algorithms existed - which one would you buy?
Good one.

The good/safety of the many, outweighs the good/safety of the few.

This might be the only moral tenet to be objective in an otherwise subjective list.

Governments and industry control robotic programming and experts are saying that the first law for robots is to not do anything to harm humans. In the scenario you posit, a computer would just crunch the numbers and end with what I just put above.

The algorithm that would save the 2 occupants while possibly killing three would likely be outlawed.

Regards
DL

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