Can good God do evil?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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seeds
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by seeds » Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:12 am

seeds wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:35 pm
bahman wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:41 pm
God which I am aiming is the Catholic God...
If such is the case, then shouldn’t the title of your thread be:

Can the Catholic God do evil?
bahman wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:41 pm
God which I am aiming is the Catholic God who is the creator and goodness, buy [sic] goodness I mean that God always does good.
Do you mean to frame it as a God who “always” does good, or a God who “only” does good?

However, either way, when it comes to the Catholic God, then I would suggest that any Being who would create and then send a defenseless soul into a context of everlasting (eternal) torture in a dimension of reality called hell,...

...takes the definition of evilness to a whole new level.
bahman wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:46 pm
People say that Hell is a matter of choice. Some people want it over goodness of Heaven. How do you answer this?
First of all, I answer it by saying that the whole concept of hell is total nonsense.

Secondly...

(and just for the sake of addressing your question from the perspective of a horrifying thought experiment)

...I’d say that if the choice between heaven and hell is one that is truly up to the individual, then to be fair, the Catholic God should give that individual an actual glimpse of heaven first.

Then after allowing them to see the beauty of heaven, the Catholic God should then attach a chain to their feet and then dip them for 5 minutes into a vat of molten steel...

...(while making sure that they do not die, and that their sense of pain remains intact throughout the ordeal).

Now of course, I am being melodramatic about this, but in the highly doubtful instance that they weren’t driven completely insane during that 5 minute sampling of hell, what do you suppose their choice would be?

Thirdly, you seem to have missed the point about the absurdity of attributing any semblance of goodness to a Being (such as the Catholic God) who is capable and willing to inflict everlasting torture upon billions of defenseless souls.

It is literally infinitely worse, but assigning the quality of “goodness” to such a God is like saying that a serial murderer who savagely and sadistically tortures his victims before strangling them, is a good person because he treats his pet snake with kindness, or paints lovely landscape murals.

And lastly, but not leastly, if hell does indeed exist, then consider what a brazen lie it would be for the humans who made it to heaven to think that God and heaven represent the locus and source of “goodness” when, in fact,...

(and assuming they are not functioning at some bovine level of consciousness, plopping down heavenly cow pies in heavenly pastures)

...they have no choice but to conclude that all of the billions of humans being tortured in hell are actually their own mothers, and fathers, and sisters, and brothers, and wives, and husbands, and children, etc., etc.

I mean, would you not at this very moment attempt to move heaven and earth to save a loved one from some madman’s torture chamber?

So what happens to the heaven dwellers’ sense of outrage and disgust for someone who tortures others?

Again, this whole business of hell and punishment after death is total nonsense.
_______

Age
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Age » Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:11 am

bahman wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:41 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:59 am
bahman wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:24 pm

No, I don't know. I am asking whether good God has the ability to do evil. I know that a good person can do evil because s/he is free. I am wondering if there is an argument about God.
The only definition of 'God' that you are providing is that 'God is good', and you say that a good person can do evil, so then I would say Yes a 'good God' has the ability to do evil.

Are you satisfied now?

I am, however, still unsure what argument you are actually seeking. I do not even know how you are defining the word 'evil' here.

From my perspective ALL people can do evil and ALL adult human beings do do 'evil'. Does that help you?

So, if human beings can do 'evil' and they only have the ability to create some things, then I would say a God (good or not), which has the ability to create ALL things, also could do 'evil', and I am sure there are some people who say that God does do some 'evil' things. However, to me, even though a 'good God' has the ability to do 'evil', but never actually does 'evil'.

So, and just to repeat to make clear, to answer your question; Yes a 'good God' has the ability to do evil.

However, whether a God (good or not) actually does do 'evil' or not can be and will be explained when the words 'God' and 'evil' are defined once and for all, for me.
God which I am aiming is the Catholic God who is the creator and goodness, buy goodness I mean that God always does good. I was wondering about a tension between goodness and freedom, by freedom I mean He has the ability to freely decide and do anything.
Look, God is NOT a "he".

Thee God that creates and is free, does, and is, just 'that'. The God that has the ability to freely decide and do anything, is just like how human beings have the ability to freely decide and do anything, with enough time, also

God always does good, human beings however do good AND bad.

Is there any thing else that you are looking for?

Age
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Age » Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:19 am

Greatest I am wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:39 pm
bahman wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:27 pm
Does good God have the ability to do evil? If yes, is His evil act justifiable just because He is God?
I am late but---

God is said to be able to do anything and that would include doing evil. To say no would be to restrict what an Omni-everything god can do. That is not really allowed.

History, if you believe the myth to be historical, which I do not, shows god as doing evil quite often.
This link sows a few examples for us to look at.

https://vimeo.com/7038401

Evil is not usually justifiable unless it leads to some greater good.

In the case of an Omnipotent god, who would have a great power of persuasion and still does evil, would always be wrong or unjustifiable.

This fact is why it is so hard to get a Christian to chat about the immoral actions of god like genocide and infanticide.

Regards
DL
I am NOT a christian but I am more than willing to chat about what you say are the immoral actions "of God".

We can start with 'genocide' and 'infanticide' if you like, and then move on from there. So, why do you say that these obviously done by human beings immoral actions are "of God"?

Age
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Age » Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:58 am

Greatest I am wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:50 pm
Age wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:03 pm

Does good God have the ability to do evil? The answer is just simply no.
You seem to be restricting what god can and can't do. Explain.
Of course a God has the ability to do any thing, which obviously includes evil. However, adding the word 'good' in front of the word 'God' is infering/making God as an ONLY good-doing thing. The placing of the word 'good' is what is restricting what God can and can not do.

For example, a 'good' person can not do evil or bad things because if they did, then they are obviously and simply not a good person.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:50 pm
Further, god is said to kill when he could just as easily cure, which is what Jesus said he came to do. Yahweh does the opposite.
What has God to said to kill?

God does not 'come' to do any thing. God is just doing HERE-NOW always.

Is 'Yahweh' God?
Greatest I am wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:50 pm
Is genocide good to you?
Who did genocide? Human beings or some other thing?

Adult human beings continually "trying to" blame some thing else for their own wrong doings, will never allow human beings to change for the better.

Genocide is obviously good, that is; to those human beings who want genocide and do do it.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:50 pm
Is killing when one can just as easily cure good or evil to you?

Regards
DL
You HAVE TO understand fully what 'God' IS in order to be able to fully understand HOW God operates.

Let us say that some thing cures your mum from an illness. Now, how much longer is your mum going to live for? Will she live forever or is she going to die (be killed by or from some thing) anyway?

Also, who would you like God or some thing to continually keep curing? Just your family members? Or your friends as well? What about your distant cousins and long lost friends? What about all the people you have worked with and went to school with? What about all of your country people? Do you want ALL people to be cured continually or just some?

If you only want some to be cured and NOT ALL, then is that a form of genocide in and of itself, on your part?

Understanding fully what 'God' IS exactly, and how It operates, NEEDS to be Truly understood, BEFORE questioning takes place about what God does and why It does what It does.

Age
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Age » Sun Sep 15, 2019 6:18 am

Greatest I am wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:40 pm
bahman wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:17 pm
Greatest I am wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:39 pm


I am late but---

God is said to be able to do anything and that would include doing evil. To say no would be to restrict what an Omni-everything god can do. That is not really allowed.

History, if you believe the myth to be historical, which I do not, shows god as doing evil quite often.
This link sows a few examples for us to look at.

https://vimeo.com/7038401

Evil is not usually justifiable unless it leads to some greater good.

In the case of an Omnipotent god, who would have a great power of persuasion and still does evil, would always be wrong or unjustifiable.

This fact is why it is so hard to get a Christian to chat about the immoral actions of god like genocide and infanticide.

Regards
DL
Do you agree with the definition of God is goodness? What does goodness mean this context?
No, I do not define god as goodness.

We live in a dualistic reality where we have both a good and evil side, a Yin and Yang side.

If we have the complimentary traits of good and evil, --- and we are created in god's image, --- then he too must have a Yin side to go with his Yang side.
But who makes up the image of 'God'?

IF human beings make an image of God being perfect and ALL good, then 'we' are created in that image, and vice-versa. We can also form an opposite image of God, in order to then 'try to'"justify" our own wrong doings. Also, we can do what you have done here and 'try to' twist things around, again in order to 'try to' "justify" our own wrong doings and misbehavior.

'we', human beings, have the ability to do any thing; right or wrong, good or bad.

The saying, 'We are created in God's image' is because we can create ourselves to be absolutely in any way 'we' want to be.

'we' can become better or we can become worse. We can become more God-like, or not.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:40 pm
That is why scriptures say that he created all things, good and evil, for his pleasure.

Regards
DL
WHY do, you think, the scriptures say this?

Age
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Age » Sun Sep 15, 2019 6:23 am

bahman wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:11 pm
Greatest I am wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:40 pm
bahman wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:17 pm

Do you agree with the definition of God is goodness? What does goodness mean this context?
No, I do not define god as goodness.

We live in a dualistic reality where we have both a good and evil side, a Yin and Yang side.

If we have the complimentary traits of good and evil, --- and we are created in god's image, --- then he too must have a Yin side to go with his Yang side.

That is why scriptures say that he created all things, good and evil, for his pleasure.

Regards
DL
Then why we are punished for doing evil? God Himself created evil.
What 'evil' do you propose God created. I do NOT see any. Also, who punishes you for doing evil?

I know God created a species with the freedom and ability to do whatsoever pleases them. If that species so chooses to do evil, then so be it. I just suggest expect consequences and best prepare for them.

Does that species need and/or want to be told 'what to do'?

Age
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Age » Sun Sep 15, 2019 6:28 am

bahman wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:46 pm
seeds wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:35 pm
bahman wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:41 pm
God which I am aiming is the Catholic God...
If such is the case, then shouldn’t the title of your thread be:

Can the Catholic God do evil?
bahman wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:41 pm
God which I am aiming is the Catholic God who is the creator and goodness, buy [sic] goodness I mean that God always does good.
Do you mean to frame it as a God who “always” does good, or a God who “only” does good?

However, either way, when it comes to the Catholic God, then I would suggest that any Being who would create and then send a defenseless soul into a context of everlasting (eternal) torture in a dimension of reality called hell,...

...takes the definition of evilness to a whole new level.
_______
People say that Hell is a matter of choice.
In regards to what exactly, and what 'hell' are they actually referring to?
bahman wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:46 pm
Some people want it over goodness of Heaven. How do you answer this?
ALL people are FREE to choose what they like and do not like, which they obviously do.

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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by -1- » Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:14 am

Erm... if god is good, he won't do evil...in this case he is not omnipotent. His actions are curtailed by a whole set of activities.

If god is omnipotent, he will do both good and evil.

Age
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Age » Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:38 am

seeds wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:12 am
seeds wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:35 pm
bahman wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:41 pm
God which I am aiming is the Catholic God...
If such is the case, then shouldn’t the title of your thread be:

Can the Catholic God do evil?
bahman wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:41 pm
God which I am aiming is the Catholic God who is the creator and goodness, buy [sic] goodness I mean that God always does good.
Do you mean to frame it as a God who “always” does good, or a God who “only” does good?

However, either way, when it comes to the Catholic God, then I would suggest that any Being who would create and then send a defenseless soul into a context of everlasting (eternal) torture in a dimension of reality called hell,...

...takes the definition of evilness to a whole new level.
bahman wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:46 pm
People say that Hell is a matter of choice. Some people want it over goodness of Heaven. How do you answer this?
First of all, I answer it by saying that the whole concept of hell is total nonsense.

Secondly...

(and just for the sake of addressing your question from the perspective of a horrifying thought experiment)

...I’d say that if the choice between heaven and hell is one that is truly up to the individual, then to be fair, the Catholic God should give that individual an actual glimpse of heaven first.

Then after allowing them to see the beauty of heaven, the Catholic God should then attach a chain to their feet and then dip them for 5 minutes into a vat of molten steel...

...(while making sure that they do not die, and that their sense of pain remains intact throughout the ordeal).

Now of course, I am being melodramatic about this, but in the highly doubtful instance that they weren’t driven completely insane during that 5 minute sampling of hell, what do you suppose their choice would be?

Thirdly, you seem to have missed the point about the absurdity of attributing any semblance of goodness to a Being (such as the Catholic God) who is capable and willing to inflict everlasting torture upon billions of defenseless souls.

It is literally infinitely worse, but assigning the quality of “goodness” to such a God is like saying that a serial murderer who savagely and sadistically tortures his victims before strangling them, is a good person because he treats his pet snake with kindness, or paints lovely landscape murals.

And lastly, but not leastly, if hell does indeed exist, then consider what a brazen lie it would be for the humans who made it to heaven to think that God and heaven represent the locus and source of “goodness” when, in fact,...

(and assuming they are not functioning at some bovine level of consciousness, plopping down heavenly cow pies in heavenly pastures)

...they have no choice but to conclude that all of the billions of humans being tortured in hell are actually their own mothers, and fathers, and sisters, and brothers, and wives, and husbands, and children, etc., etc.

I mean, would you not at this very moment attempt to move heaven and earth to save a loved one from some madman’s torture chamber?

So what happens to the heaven dwellers’ sense of outrage and disgust for someone who tortures others?

Again, this whole business of hell and punishment after death is total nonsense.
_______
It sure is total nonsense from the perspective that you just gave. But what 'heaven' and 'hell' really are, are nothing like what you have portrayed here.

Age
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Age » Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:58 am

-1- wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:14 am
Erm... if god is good, he won't do evil...in this case he is not omnipotent. His actions are curtailed by a whole set of activities.
Well it stands to reason that if God is being defined as some thing, then that is what God is.

So, are we talking about a 'good' God or an 'omnipotent' God? Or, just God
-1- wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:14 am
If god is omnipotent, he will do both good and evil.
Why do you say this?

Just because some thing is capable of doing something, then that in and of itself does not mean that it will do it. For example, you are capable of piloting a submarine, but that does not mean that you will ever do it.

By the way 'God' is not a "he".

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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Greatest I am » Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:56 pm

Age wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:19 am
Greatest I am wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:39 pm
bahman wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:27 pm
Does good God have the ability to do evil? If yes, is His evil act justifiable just because He is God?
I am late but---

God is said to be able to do anything and that would include doing evil. To say no would be to restrict what an Omni-everything god can do. That is not really allowed.

History, if you believe the myth to be historical, which I do not, shows god as doing evil quite often.
This link sows a few examples for us to look at.

https://vimeo.com/7038401

Evil is not usually justifiable unless it leads to some greater good.

In the case of an Omnipotent god, who would have a great power of persuasion and still does evil, would always be wrong or unjustifiable.

This fact is why it is so hard to get a Christian to chat about the immoral actions of god like genocide and infanticide.

Regards
DL
I am NOT a christian but I am more than willing to chat about what you say are the immoral actions "of God".

We can start with 'genocide' and 'infanticide' if you like, and then move on from there. So, why do you say that these obviously done by human beings immoral actions are "of God"?
LOL.

We will sure get far in our chat when you blame humans for Noah's genocidal flood.

We do not have that power.

You exemplify all those who run from an honest discussion on the morals of a god who can cure as easily as kill, yet chooses to kill en mass.

Thanks for showing your fear.

Regards
DL

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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Greatest I am » Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:02 pm

Age wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 6:28 am
[

ALL people are FREE to choose what they like and do not like, which they obviously do.
Scriptures are clear that we do not have a free will as god hardens the hearts of non-believers so that they do not believe and gives the grace to believe to those he wants to believe.

If you read your bible you will know this so I do not understand why you indicate that we have a free will.

Regards
DL

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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Greatest I am » Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:03 pm

-1- wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:14 am
Erm... if god is good, he won't do evil...in this case he is not omnipotent. His actions are curtailed by a whole set of activities.

If god is omnipotent, he will do both good and evil.
Indeed. Yin without Yang is a foolish notion.

Regards
DL

Age
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Age » Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:07 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:56 pm
Age wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:19 am
Greatest I am wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:39 pm


I am late but---

God is said to be able to do anything and that would include doing evil. To say no would be to restrict what an Omni-everything god can do. That is not really allowed.

History, if you believe the myth to be historical, which I do not, shows god as doing evil quite often.
This link sows a few examples for us to look at.

https://vimeo.com/7038401

Evil is not usually justifiable unless it leads to some greater good.

In the case of an Omnipotent god, who would have a great power of persuasion and still does evil, would always be wrong or unjustifiable.

This fact is why it is so hard to get a Christian to chat about the immoral actions of god like genocide and infanticide.

Regards
DL
I am NOT a christian but I am more than willing to chat about what you say are the immoral actions "of God".

We can start with 'genocide' and 'infanticide' if you like, and then move on from there. So, why do you say that these obviously done by human beings immoral actions are "of God"?
LOL.

We will sure get far in our chat when you blame humans for Noah's genocidal flood.
Was I made aware of and did I KNOW that you were talking about this specific 'genocide'?

Was I aware of ALL the things that you misconstrue and take literally from YOUR perspective.

You implied it is so hard to get some one to chat about things. I said I am more than willing to chat.

If I got you WRONG, then just correct me, and then we can move on.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:56 pm
We do not have that power.

You exemplify all those who run from an honest discussion on the morals of a god who can cure as easily as kill, yet chooses to kill en mass.

Thanks for showing your fear.

Regards
DL
Well you have started off by completely assuming me WRONG.

Now, IF you want to chat about some thing, then I will allow you to START it any way you like, and then I will chat with you. So go ahead.

Age
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Age » Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:13 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:02 pm
Age wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 6:28 am
[

ALL people are FREE to choose what they like and do not like, which they obviously do.
Scriptures are clear that we do not have a free will as god hardens the hearts of non-believers so that they do not believe and gives the grace to believe to those he wants to believe.

If you read your bible you will know this so I do not understand why you indicate that we have a free will.

Regards
DL
Scriptures are NOT clear, and NEVER have been hitherto, when this is written. If scriptures were CLEAR, then there would NOT need to be any discussions about them.

Why do people who BELIEVE or DISBELIEVE God use the bible as though EVERY word in it is written directly from God, Itself, and then EVERY word means exactly whatever the person reading thinks or believes it means?

If a person is NOT open to interpreting words differently than how they want to interpret them, then there is NO use in discussing any thing.

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