DAM asked: "Is being born worth it - or is it better to have never been born?"

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Age
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Re: DAM asked: "Is being born worth it - or is it better to have never been born?"

Post by Age » Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:03 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:14 am
Age wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
There is no evidence for reincarnation but even if there was I would not want to come back in any form at all
When I die I want to stay dead forever never having to experience a single second of consciousness ever again
And especially if I had zero choice about the body and mind that I would be trapped inside of for all of its life
I am just curious as to why if any one feels and thinks this way that they continue to stay alive

If you NEVER want to experience consciousness again then WHY stay experiencing consciousness now
I have to stay alive so I am leaving it up to Mother Nature to decide when to take me from this life
WHY do you HAVE TO stay alive?

Nothing is forcing you to stay alive. So, if you truly do not like staying alive, then you do NOT 'have to'.
surreptitious57 wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:14 am
I have no problem with temporary consciousness but not for all of eternity as that is my idea of hell
But what if you and everyone "else" started living peacefully in harmony as One, with each "other", and you learned how to not suffer anymore and so felt Truly HAPPY, then would you like to live longer then you are going to now?

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Dontaskme
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Re: DAM asked: "Is being born worth it - or is it better to have never been born?"

Post by Dontaskme » Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:08 pm

Nick:

The problem becomes how to surrender the joys of suffering long enough to begin to understand? You prefer to condemn it as non existent.
There is no individual entity suffering, that's the non-existent I am refering to, not the unavoidable palpable suffering per-se, which is just a reaction to pain, be it mental or physical. Suffering the pains of being arises here and is felt deeply within every sentient creature with a nervous system...why does that suffering have to be a necessity for the human primate? Who is placing that condition upon the primate that they have to endure the suffering with a happy, happy, joy, joy behooved unconditional acceptance upon their hearts, in order to understand it?

What sort of a good God would opt for that life ..and who is going to be the guinea pig to test it out? if God doesn't create itself?

Please explain?

.

Nick_A
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Re: DAM asked: "Is being born worth it - or is it better to have never been born?"

Post by Nick_A » Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:19 pm

“The supernatural greatness of Christianity lies in the fact that it does not seek a supernatural remedy for suffering but a supernatural use for it.”
― Simone Weil



DaM
Again, why does the concept of evil need to be a neessity? something that needs to be understood so as to serve this necessity to be necessary?

Why is it necessary to suffer being alive?

What's good about that?
A very good question and coincides with your opening question if it would be better not to have been born. Since it isn’t our choice what are our options? Is suicide the best cure for suffering?

As I understand it God is simultaneously both one and three. God is ONE outside of the limitations of time and space and three serving the process of existence within time and space.

There are three essential forces within the ONE. The first affirms unity. The second affirms diversity or the infinity of fractions of the whole. The third is the force that connects them. God IS. God is ONE. The universe is a process taking place within creation that expresses the fractions of the whole at lawful levels of reality determined by the lawful vibratory frequencies of matter. Wholeness and fractions of the whole are a necessary part of unity within ISNESS. Existence is a necessity since the interacting three forces are a necessity.

The universe has to be imperfect since only the ONE beyond the limits of time and space can be the eternal unchanging. The universe is a machine within the eternal unchanging always changing serving the cyclical process of existence.

The mistake many make is to argue the universe from the perspective of results. The meaning and purpose of the universe is found in the process, not the results

There are two essential flows of forces which sustain our universe. The first is involution. This is the lawful flow of qualities of the essential three forces away from their source and forming the interacting fractions within creation. The second is evolution which is the return of the flow of forces back to their source. This is n eternal cycle.

Organic life on earth serves the process of involution. Man is the one exception. Man can serve both the process of involution and the process of conscious evolution as well. It is what makes life worth living in spite of the suffering we live within.

We have an essence we are born with and a personality we acquire. We revolt against the results of our personality and our essence dies with it.
John 12:

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
We can curse out the results of our personality that lives our life for us but do we have to destroy our essence and this kernel of life which has the potential to evolve and become a conscious part of universal meaning and purpose? Can we make conscious use of suffering rather than avoiding it?

I believe we can but it requires the second birth; a concept largely perverted in culture today. So like the lemmings humanity will largely just follow the path of self destruction.

Nick_A
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Re: DAM asked: "Is being born worth it - or is it better to have never been born?"

Post by Nick_A » Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:29 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:08 pm
Nick:

The problem becomes how to surrender the joys of suffering long enough to begin to understand? You prefer to condemn it as non existent.
There is no individual entity suffering, that's the non-existent I am refering to, not the unavoidable palpable suffering per-se, which is just a reaction to pain, be it mental or physical. Suffering the pains of being arises here and is felt deeply within every sentient creature with a nervous system...why does that suffering have to be a necessity for the human primate? Who is placing that condition upon the primate that they have to endure the suffering with a happy, happy, joy, joy behooved unconditional acceptance upon their hearts, in order to understand it?

What sort of a good God would opt for that life ..and who is going to be the guinea pig to test it out? if God doesn't create itself?

Please explain?

.
The seed of God is in us. Given an intelligent and hard-working farmer, it will thrive and grow up to God, whose seed it is; and accordingly its fruits will be God-nature. Pear seeds grow into pear trees, nut seeds into nut trees, and God seed into God.
—Meister Eckhart
I tried to explain the necessity of suffering in my previous post. You seem to deny this kernel of life Meister Eckhart refers to while I intuitively sense the value in recognizing it. For those like me the question becomes how to nurture it rather than deny it?

surreptitious57
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Re: DAM asked: "Is being born worth it - or is it better to have never been born?"

Post by surreptitious57 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:45 pm

Age wrote:
if no abuse was being done then ALL would be living happily in peace and harmony
Does abuse only apply to human beings or to every other living thing as well
Because you cannot exist without killing something and that would be abuse

surreptitious57
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Re: DAM asked: "Is being born worth it - or is it better to have never been born?"

Post by surreptitious57 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:50 pm

Age wrote:
But what if you and everyone else started living peacefully in harmony as One with each other and you learned
how to not suffer anymore and so felt Truly HAPPY then would you like to live longer then you are going to now
I still would not want to live any longer because for me harmony comes with death not life
I had a perfect existence before I was created and want to return to that place once again

Age
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Re: DAM asked: "Is being born worth it - or is it better to have never been born?"

Post by Age » Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:54 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:45 pm
Age wrote:
if no abuse was being done then ALL would be living happily in peace and harmony
Does abuse only apply to human beings or to every other living thing as well
EVERY thing
surreptitious57 wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:45 pm
Because you cannot exist without killing something and that would be abuse
But that is NOT abuse.

Age
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Re: DAM asked: "Is being born worth it - or is it better to have never been born?"

Post by Age » Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:59 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:50 pm
Age wrote:
But what if you and everyone else started living peacefully in harmony as One with each other and you learned
how to not suffer anymore and so felt Truly HAPPY then would you like to live longer then you are going to now
I still would not want to live any longer because for me harmony comes with death not life
So, even IF you could live in harmony 'you' would still prefer to be dead in harmony. That is fair enough.
surreptitious57 wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:50 pm
I had a perfect existence before I was created and want to return to that place once again
So why do you not return to that place now?

What are you waiting for?

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Lacewing
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Re: DAM asked: "Is being born worth it - or is it better to have never been born?"

Post by Lacewing » Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:03 pm

Dontaskme to bahman wrote: no one who is living ever had the choice of whether to live or not
How do you know this? How do you know that there wasn't some awareness and creative surge completely different than what you're aware of now?

And why are you acting so enraged about it? So you find yourself alive and you don't like it. Then use your amazing creativity and vision to recreate the dynamics of it. A shift in the image/presentation of it will likely shift the way you see and feel too. Think of the times you've been high on life. Think about how vast the range of experience can be, and how powerful you are to create Heaven or Hell. Now be conscious and choose.

You are not trapped anywhere. The experience of life can just as easily be a gift rather than a curse. You always have options. You are very powerful -- we are all very powerful in what we create. The universe is listening and will magnify your energy for you. I suggest, DAM, that right now you immerse yourself in the things that nurture you. It sounds like you're in a furious spin...and although that's totally fine on the stage, you seem rather miserable from it. So throw that script away and pick up a better one that you can enjoy. This temporary life will be over soon enough. What difference does it make whether there is some grand purpose? Live right now in the moment...whatever this moment may be. :D

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henry quirk
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Re: "Is being born worth it - or is it better to have never been born?"

Post by henry quirk » Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:04 pm

"So for you it's worth it..so how about living forever without ever dying, would that idea be of interest to you?"

If I'm healthy, clear-headed, capable, and free: sure, I'd give eternal life a shot.

Gotta have the option to change my mind, though, to say 'okay, I've had enough, takin' a dirt nap now'.

surreptitious57
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Re: DAM asked: "Is being born worth it - or is it better to have never been born?"

Post by surreptitious57 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:06 pm

Age wrote:
But that is NOT abuse
Why is killing something not abuse less it wants to be killed
How would one know if an animal wants to be killed anyway

surreptitious57
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Re: DAM asked: "Is being born worth it - or is it better to have never been born?"

Post by surreptitious57 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:10 pm

Age wrote:
So why do you not return to that place now
There is a block which prevents this from happening of my own free will
I therefore have to wait until Nature decides when it is time for me to go

Age
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Re: DAM asked: "Is being born worth it - or is it better to have never been born?"

Post by Age » Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:30 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:06 pm
Age wrote:
But that is NOT abuse
Why is killing something not abuse less it wants to be killed
Why is killing some thing abuse?

You would have to know the purpose of some thing, and know how to use it correctly, in order to know if you are abusing it or not.

Do you KNOW what the purpose is for things like; animals, including human beings, life, or even the purpose of the 'you'?

Until you do, then you would not know it you are using things correctly or incorrectly/abusively.
surreptitious57 wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:06 pm
How would one know if an animal wants to be killed anyway
Squeeze it's neck and see if it just stays still or if it fights and/or flights.

If the animal struggles and tries to get away, then that is a pretty good sign, enough evidence, and sufficient proof that it does NOT want to be killed.

Unless of course you have other explanation.

Age
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Re: DAM asked: "Is being born worth it - or is it better to have never been born?"

Post by Age » Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:31 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:10 pm
Age wrote:
So why do you not return to that place now
There is a block which prevents this from happening of my own free will
I therefore have to wait until Nature decides when it is time for me to go
What is that block?

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bahman
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Re: DAM asked: "Is being born worth it - or is it better to have never been born?"

Post by bahman » Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:33 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:46 pm
bahman wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:35 pm
Well, we live because we want to live.
Oh really!!
Who is this 'we' that wants to live? no one who is living ever had the choice of whether to live or not, that choice was made by someone else.
You are free to kill yourself if you believe that life doesn't worth living and if you think that death is permanent.
Dontaskme wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:46 pm
Therefore, the assumed 'we' that wants to live had no other choice but to live whether it wanted it or not, so to say 'we' live because we WANT to live is BULLSHIT.
I think that life could be harsh on someone but it is not bullshit.
Dontaskme wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:46 pm
NOW for the 'me' who is here living without ever having any choice in whether it WANTED to live or not, matters not, for it can now just choose to kill itself, which is just more suffering, especially for the one who now wants to kill itself because it's feeling so terrible that it's only way out of it's suffering is to just end it all, yes it can WANT that end, it can want to end it...but then, that's just creating even more suffering for the loved ones it leaves behind. So yeah, great idea, lets just create even more suffering, that'll fix the problem, it's like the darn suffering problem knows no end.
Killing oneself could be quite swift and without suffering if you use the right tools.
Dontaskme wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:46 pm
bahman wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:35 pm
The other side is death.
You mean the side where all that lives comes from? that just proves death is not the answer, in that death just gives birth to itself again.
No, I meant that there are two options to live or to die forever if such a thing exists.

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