EVIL!!!!!!!!

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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surreptitious57
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by surreptitious57 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:55 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Atheism cannot get grounds to make the claim that God does not exist ...
it would have to leave that question as a possibility and that would be agnosticism not Atheism
Atheism is the non acceptance of Gods existence NOT the rejection of it [ they are not the same ]
Non acceptance of something is a skeptical position whereas rejection of it is basically a knowledge claim
Knowledge claims require evidence or proof to justify them while skeptical positions require nothing at all

Most atheists are agnostic atheists [ I am too ] - they do not believe in God but cannot disprove his existence
Only gnostic atheists will actually make the claim that God does not exist but they cannot support that claim

surreptitious57
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by surreptitious57 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:09 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
That also is premised on an assumption : namely that science can describe all that exists

But if that were true you could show me a beaker of morality - measure the length of a meaning - weigh identity in scales - give me a pound of soul
Morality and meaning and identity and soul as in personality or character are all mental constructs
Mental constructs are produced by the brain - the brain is a physical organ studied by neuroscience
Soul as in personality or character can also be studied by psychology

surreptitious57
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by surreptitious57 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:24 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Well what do you think of the scientific arguments for God
Can any of these so called scientific arguments actually produce a potentially falsifiable hypothesis pertaining to God
They cannot which renders them non scientific by default so science cannot investigate God and everyone knows this
Last edited by surreptitious57 on Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by Immanuel Can » Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:26 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:55 pm
Atheism is the non acceptance of Gods existence NOT the rejection of it [ they are not the same ]
Let me ask you this, if you suppose that: your "non-acceptance" of God...do you think rational others ought to think as you do about that, or are you only saying that you, yourself happen not to believe?

If you're saying "Just me," then your observation is trivial to others. It amounts to, "Surr57 happens, by accident, not to believe." However, if you think others should share you view (which I'm thinking you do), then you owe them reasons why. What would be your argument to them that belief in God is irrational?
Most atheists are agnostic atheists [ I am too
There's no such thing. "Atheist" means "no gods," and "agnostic" means "I don't know (about God or gods)." An "agnostic-Atheist" means "I don't know anything about whether or not the god or Gods in which I disbelieve exist." That's highly anti-intellectual, because it says that the speaker has made up his mind not only on no knowledge at all, but also while frankly admitting he doesn't know anything about what he's talking about. :shock:

Is anybody that nutty? Maybe. But not you, I hope.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by Immanuel Can » Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:32 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:24 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Well what do you think of the scientific arguments for God
Can any of these so called scientific arguments actually produce a potentially falsifiable hypothesis pertaining to God
Absolutely.

Take the Design Hypothesis, just for one of many: it starts with the simple point that either things are designed, or they're accidental. If you can prove all of creation is merely accidental, you'd falsify creation, which would falsify the idea of a Creator. Done.

The fact that the skeptic can't do that is no stroke against the Design Hypothesis. The terms of falsification have been given. What it means that non-design has really, really bad evidence, and can't mount a good counter case. But that just counts in favour of the Design view.

surreptitious57
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by surreptitious57 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:39 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
if you think others should share you view then you owe them reasons why . What would be your argument to them that belief in God is irrational
What others think is not my concern but to answer your question :

I think ALL belief is irrational because it is the acceptance of a proposition as a truth statement despite there being insufficient evidence
to actually support it - so for me it is belief itself that is the problem not the thing that is being believed - that actually matters much less
Yet despite this I fully support the fundamental right of any human being to believe whatever they want to regardless of how irrational it is

surreptitious57
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by surreptitious57 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:56 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Is anybody that nutty
Another thing to stick on your fridge door : most atheists are agnostic atheists
This is to say that they do not believe in God but cannot disprove his existence
God cannot be falsified so therefore no knowledge claim about him can be made

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Immanuel Can
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by Immanuel Can » Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:01 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:39 pm
I think ALL belief is irrational because it is the acceptance of a proposition as a truth statement despite there being insufficient evidence
to actually support it
That's actually not anybody else's definition of "belief." There's no part of the definition that requires there to be "insufficient evidence," and if there's not enough "to actually support it," then what it is is not a "belief" but a gratuitous delusion.

People actually use the word "belief" for all sorts of warranted situations. They say, "I believe it will rain, because the clouds are heavy and grey." Or they say, "I believe you have chicken pox because of the welts on your back," or "I believe you shouldn't give guns to criminals." None of that is unwarranted, in the least.
Yet despite this I fully support the fundamental right of any human being to believe whatever they want to regardless of how irrational it is
I would agree that people have a right to decide what they believe. But I would not say that makes all kinds of "belief" equal.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by Immanuel Can » Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:03 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:56 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Is anybody that nutty
Another thing to stick on your fridge door : most atheists are agnostic atheists
You mean, "Most Atheists are illiterate," or rather, "Atheists can't understand etymology"?

I guess I could add that.
God cannot be falsified so therefore no knowledge claim about him can be made
Did you completely ignore my argument about the Design Hypothesis? Why?

surreptitious57
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by surreptitious57 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:06 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Take the Design Hypothesis just for one of many : it starts with the simple point that either things are designed or they are accidental
This cannot be tested because its scientifically invalid so do you have an actual hypothesis that can be tested
No you dont so we can say that science cannot confirm or deny the existence of God or it already would have

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Immanuel Can
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by Immanuel Can » Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:07 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:39 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
if you think others should share you view then you owe them reasons why . What would be your argument to them that belief in God is irrational
What others think is not my concern
Perhaps. But your concern is whether what you believe is rational, necessary and based on reasons (which you can then give, of course) or is just a confession of personal confusion...which might be hard on you, but doesn't affect anybody else.

If you want anybody else to think your view has merit, then you're going to have to give them reasons to believe it.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by Immanuel Can » Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:10 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:06 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Take the Design Hypothesis just for one of many : it starts with the simple point that either things are designed or they are accidental
This cannot be tested because its scientifically invalid
That is decidedly not so. Design can be detected. There are criteria by which we recognize it.

But you only asked that it be falsifiable. I showed you how it is. Now where do you go with that?

surreptitious57
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by surreptitious57 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:11 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
People actually use the word belief for all sorts of warranted situations
Yes they do but you asked me not them so what they think is not actually relevant here
I do not use the word belief at all if I can avoid it and most of the time I do manage to

surreptitious57
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by surreptitious57 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:19 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Design can be detected
How can science determine that the Universe was designed or not designed
Even if it was it is not the remit of science to investigate ontological claims
Science just studies phenomena and nothing else

surreptitious57
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Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by surreptitious57 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:24 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
But you only asked that it be falsifiable . I showed you how it is . Now where do you go with that ?
Go absolutely nowhere with it because it is not actually falsifiable in practice
God created the Universe / God did not create the Universe is beyond science

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