Hi ! Mohamed - Morocco

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Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Hi ! Mohamed - Morocco

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Sun Sep 01, 2019 5:00 am

mohamedtaqi wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 1:04 pm
I hope you see the picture , it is difficult to convey it ... it is a mix of deontological kantian ethics and evolution.
I leveraged on Kant for my views on Morality and Ethics which is not exactly deontological but rather it is system-based morality and ethics.

Note my OP here;
OUGHT from IS is Possible
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=27245

and

WHAT WOULD KANT SAY ABOUT ABORTION ?
viewtopic.php?p=422293#p422293

Mohamed,
understand you are [a]theist and agnostic [not very common with Arab] and that [imo] is true sign you are evolving and progressing as a good human being.
What are your views on the other 'Mohamed' of the Quran and Islam.

I agree with Stoicism which is similar to Buddhism [non-theistic]. I believe there are greater avenues in Buddhism where the similar principles can be put into practiced more efficiently as one can note from the popularity of Buddhism.
  • Stoicism and Buddhism are two remarkably similar philosophies that were created independently thousands of miles apart.
    Buddhism was founded in present-day Nepal around 500 B.C and Stoicism began in Athens, Greece around 300 B.C. They both advocate seeking happiness from an internal source, so that the ups and downs of life will not be your masters. As philosopher and author Nassim Taleb once wrote on the similarities between the two: “A Stoic is a Buddhist with attitude.”
    https://dailystoic.com/stoicism-buddhism/
I believe Stocism [300 B.C] was influenced greatly by the earlier Buddhism [500 B.C] as there were a lot of traffic between Western India and Eastern Greece and surrounding areas. Thomas Mc Evilley argued Greek Philosophy was first influenced by Hindu Philosophy and the reversed [more organized then] happened later.

https://archive.org/details/TheShapeOfA ... ht/page/n3


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXBygl-ox5Q&t=63s

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mohamedtaqi
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Re: Hi ! Mohamed - Morocco

Post by mohamedtaqi » Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:01 pm

I leveraged on Kant for my views on Morality and Ethics which is not exactly deontological but rather it is system-based morality and ethics.

Note my OP here;
OUGHT from IS is Possible
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=27245
Thank you for elaborating, I will take some time to read your thread.
understand you are [a]theist and agnostic [not very common with Arab] and that [imo] is true sign you are evolving and progressing as a good human being.
What are your views on the other 'Mohamed' of the Quran and Islam.
I am not Arab, I am a berber and my native language is Tamazight (not Arabic) . But I take it that Arab here means born between Morocco and Iraq. But I will answer as someone who is raised as a Muslim (and who society expects to follow Islam).

But regarding Arab countries, there are many atheits and agnostics since the Arab spring , questions started to be discussed. I do not know whether there were that much atheists before the arab spring or they started to reject religion after the arab spring. But personally, I was nonreligious since 16 years or so (now I am 30) .

I do not think personally that history is a reliable source of knowledge, I mean academic and sometimes archaeology-based history. Let alone the history and evolution of Islam which is so short on evidence to support what we read in Qur'an, Hadeeth (Mohamed's teachings) and Seerah (Mohamed's biography).

So, regarding the historical Mohamed , I do not know him personally, I do not even know whether he exists or not, or at least : I do not know whether he exists as we know him from Seerah and Hadeeth (which are not reliable scientific resources as they rely on anecdotal evidence).

BUT, whoever is the founder of Islam and author of the Qur'an : I surely agree with him when he says that parents are to be respected, that we have to help the poor and give charity...etc.

And I surely disagree with him on subjects such as cutting off a thief's hands or killing apostates ( I am considered an apostate according to Islam, apostates who converted to Islam and who from non-muslim parents are to be executed after giving them a chance for three days, but apostates from Muslim parents are to be executed without any other chance of repentance), this is utter cruelty and savagery.

I am just grateful Morocco does not apply Sharia Law, otherwise I would be dead a long time ago.

Regarding Islam and science, well although there are faint claims of scientific miracles of the Qur'an (which are not actually miracles, believe me I read Arabic and know that this is a big lie, Qur'an is poetic, emotional and beautiful compared to other books, but there are no scientific miracles whatsoever). Actually, I think that the guy got it wrong many times, either in Hadeeth or Qur'an.

So, I do not know whether Mohamed exists or not (same for Jesus, Moses, Abraham and the other guys) ... But I disagree on 95% (or more) of the matters discussed in the scriptures (in moral matters), and I disagree with 100% of the scientific claims.

That's it.
I believe Stocism [300 B.C] was influenced greatly by the earlier Buddhism [500 B.C] as there were a lot of traffic between Western India and Eastern Greece and surrounding areas. Thomas Mc Evilley argued Greek Philosophy was first influenced by Hindu Philosophy and the reversed [more organized then] happened later.

I like Buddhism , but again, this is a religion, and when I say religion, it cannot go without claims that need scientific and empirical evidence to back them. Buddhism is based on introspection and self-experience , that is : to think (or actually, not to think , to be passively engaged in thinking) on one's own thoughts during meditation in order to get in touch with a higher state of awareness that comes with the absence of thoughts.

I agree that all this makes me feel good, meditation works on psychological, physical and emotional levels : it is good for our brains, muscles, heart...etc.

But these good practices come with a set of metaphysical claims about reality and the mind (I mean metaphysical in the sense of philosophical branch of metaphysics, and not in the sense of the supernatural).

And these claims tend to be idealist (or at least categorized as idealism) in both metaphysics and philosophy of mind. But again, I cannot but take these idealistic claims with a grain of salt. I cannot just say that : Well practice is good, meditation feels great, I am confortable, therefore : matter does not exist, the whole Universe is just consciousness .

I can nevertheless benefit from these practices (that's why I am a stoic, and I like buddhism), but I do not buy any claims regarding the nature of reality, and introspection is not a reliable method for studying these matters.

Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Hi ! Mohamed - Morocco

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:57 am

Agree with most of your points, except to comment on the following;
mohamedtaqi wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:01 pm
BUT, whoever is the founder of Islam and author of the Qur'an : I surely agree with him when he says that parents are to be respected, that we have to help the poor and give charity...etc.
Yes, the Quran does exhort one to be good to parents, bethren, kins, but that is only if they are Muslims. The Quran has a whole load of verses on ethics exhorting one to be good, [SLH; salih] [Ayn-Ra-Fa] Ma'ruf, but they are only applicable to Muslims.

As for non-Muslims, note;
  • 9:23. O ye [Muslims] who believe! Choose not your fathers nor your brethren for friends [WLY; awliyāa] if they take pleasure in disbelief [l-kuf'ra; as infidels] rather than faith [AMN; l-īmāni]. Whoso of you [Muslims] taketh them [infidels] for friends [WLY: awliyāa], such [Muslims] are wrong doers [ZLM: l-ẓālimūna] [sinful].

    29:8. We have enjoined on man kindness [HSN: ḥus'nan] to parents; but if they [your parents] strive [JHD: Jāhadāka] to make thee join with Me - that [partners, gods of infidels] of which thou hast no knowledge, - then obey them [parents] not. Unto Me is your return and I shall tell you what ye used to do.

    58:22. Thou wilt not find folk [Muslims] who believe in Allah and the Last Day loving [WDD: wadda] those [infidels] who oppose [HDD: ḥādda] Allah and His messenger: even though they [infidels] be their fathers or, their sons or their brethren or their clan.
I can nevertheless benefit from these practices (that's why I am a stoic, and I like buddhism), but I do not buy any claims regarding the nature of reality, and introspection is not a reliable method for studying these matters.
Buddhist is fundamentally non-theistic. It is true there are some schools of Buddhism which has various views on reality, e.g. the Store Consciousness and absolute reality of the Yogacara School.
However I believe Buddhism-proper is represented by the Rangtong School which simply focus on sunyata as pure emptiness without any reference to an absolute reality.

I see
Buddhism's 4NT-8FP as a Life Problem Solving Technique.
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=25193&hilit=four+Noble+truth

I agree with Buddhist philosophy but I am NOT a Buddhist officially.

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mohamedtaqi
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Re: Hi ! Mohamed - Morocco

Post by mohamedtaqi » Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:59 pm

As for non-Muslims, note;
9:23. O ye [Muslims] who believe! Choose not your fathers nor your brethren for friends [WLY; awliyāa] if they take pleasure in disbelief [l-kuf'ra; as infidels] rather than faith [AMN; l-īmāni]. Whoso of you [Muslims] taketh them [infidels] for friends [WLY: awliyāa], such [Muslims] are wrong doers [ZLM: l-ẓālimūna] [sinful].

29:8. We have enjoined on man kindness [HSN: ḥus'nan] to parents; but if they [your parents] strive [JHD: Jāhadāka] to make thee join with Me - that [partners, gods of infidels] of which thou hast no knowledge, - then obey them [parents] not. Unto Me is your return and I shall tell you what ye used to do.

58:22. Thou wilt not find folk [Muslims] who believe in Allah and the Last Day loving [WDD: wadda] those [infidels] who oppose [HDD: ḥādda] Allah and His messenger: even though they [infidels] be their fathers or, their sons or their brethren or their clan.

Actually it is complicated and it is not straightforward as it may seem in translations. I am nonreligious, and I agree that Qur'an is just a man-made book, but believe me : When Qur'an is translated, most of the nuances that are related to the Arabic language are lost, so most of the text seems even harsher and more aggressive. Let me clarify what I mean :

The first Ayah indeed says that you ought not take them for Awliyaa , it is translated as friend, but the meaning is different : Awliyaa means "who belong to the same team, army, country...etc", and NOT friends as one may understand. It is possible to visit one's parents in this regards, obey them, help them, and do them good without making them as Awliyaa .

This roughly means : "Do them good and obey them when it comes to all matters, except if they ask you to join the enemy of Muhammed, then do not obey them.". Qu'ran also says in 60:8

Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly.


Allah only forbids you from those who fight you because of religion and expel you from your homes and aid in your expulsion - [forbids] that you make allies of them. And whoever makes allies of them, then it is those who are the wrongdoers.


See? it is complicated ,the author of the Qur'an is surely one of the most unskilled authors I have ever seen ... You can find whatever suits your needs in that scripture. But if you look at it without bias , you will find that there are good verses, bad verses and verses you cannot quite grasp.

https://quran.com/60

surreptitious57
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Re: Hi ! Mohamed - Morocco

Post by surreptitious57 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:25 am

barbarianhorde wrote:
Me personally I have had to develop my own philosophical logic in order to change well really in order to survive
I had been an avid student of philosophy for basically my whole life even though before I was I9 I didnt call it philosophy
but no thinker ever had the kind of impact on me that caused me to truly alter my world

But once I discovered my own way of integrating all models and ideas I worked with everything changed
No single branch of philosophy has a monopoly on wisdom and so it is important not to become too dependent on any one
That can lead to dogmatism and the uncritical acceptance of a particular system of thought to the exclusion of all others

What should determine whether a philosophy is adopted or not is its practical or moral application not its historical legacy
Furthermore human beings are constantly evolving and this organic state should also be reflected in how one thinks as well

Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Hi ! Mohamed - Morocco

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:20 am

mohamedtaqi wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:59 pm
As for non-Muslims, note;
9:23. O ye [Muslims] who believe! Choose not your fathers nor your brethren for friends [WLY; awliyāa] if they take pleasure in disbelief [l-kuf'ra; as infidels] rather than faith [AMN; l-īmāni]. Whoso of you [Muslims] taketh them [infidels] for friends [WLY: awliyāa], such [Muslims] are wrong doers [ZLM: l-ẓālimūna] [sinful].

29:8. We have enjoined on man kindness [HSN: ḥus'nan] to parents; but if they [your parents] strive [JHD: Jāhadāka] to make thee join with Me - that [partners, gods of infidels] of which thou hast no knowledge, - then obey them [parents] not. Unto Me is your return and I shall tell you what ye used to do.

58:22. Thou wilt not find folk [Muslims] who believe in Allah and the Last Day loving [WDD: wadda] those [infidels] who oppose [HDD: ḥādda] Allah and His messenger: even though they [infidels] be their fathers or, their sons or their brethren or their clan.

Actually it is complicated and it is not straightforward as it may seem in translations. I am nonreligious, and I agree that Qur'an is just a man-made book, but believe me : When Qur'an is translated, most of the nuances that are related to the Arabic language are lost, so most of the text seems even harsher and more aggressive. Let me clarify what I mean :

The first Ayah indeed says that you ought not take them for Awliyaa , it is translated as friend, but the meaning is different : Awliyaa means "who belong to the same team, army, country...etc", and NOT friends as one may understand. It is possible to visit one's parents in this regards, obey them, help them, and do them good without making them as Awliyaa .

This roughly means : "Do them good and obey them when it comes to all matters, except if they ask you to join the enemy of Muhammed, then do not obey them.". Qu'ran also says in 60:8

Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly.


Allah only forbids you from those who fight you because of religion and expel you from your homes and aid in your expulsion - [forbids] that you make allies of them. And whoever makes allies of them, then it is those who are the wrongdoers.


See? it is complicated ,the author of the Qur'an is surely one of the most unskilled authors I have ever seen ... You can find whatever suits your needs in that scripture. But if you look at it without bias , you will find that there are good verses, bad verses and verses you cannot quite grasp.

https://quran.com/60
I understand translations can be problematic.
I have access to a site that provide 50+ English translation for each verse and one can see the extensive variations, biasness in the translations.

Even if you read the Quran in Arabic it can also be problematic as in some cases different Arabic readers will arrive at different meanings.
This is very common with reading in English [so common with philosophical books] and I presume with any other languages.

That is why I took the trouble to learn very basic Arabic to understand its trilateral root system, refer to two compendium of all the trilateral roots [including bilateral and quadrilateral ones] of the Quran, access to Arabic-English dictionaries. In addition, I make it a point to grasp some elementary knowledge of Arabic and Quranic grammar.

But what is most critical is the context of the whole Quran, the whole religion and the linguistic climate during the time the Quran was written coupled strongly the principles of Philosophical proper. Izutsu wrong a book on this - very popular among Muslims.

[WLY; awliyāa] is often translated as 'friend' in most English translations, but generally people do not befriend their fathers, bethren and relatives, it cannot be taken literally as friend in this case.
In context, it meant one must distance oneself from them, be wary of them as a threat to one beliefs, etc. True, a Muslim can still respect their non-believer father, but when there is crunch situation, Allah commands will prevail over all else. Note Abraham was even willing to chop off of his son for Allah/God.

I researched the Quran very philosophically, i.e. with rigor.
What I have done is to put the 6236 verses in rows and one column in Excel and analyze them in 1400++ categories across 1400++ columns. This is very tough work, for every verse I have to look across 1400++ columns to assess to which elements they apply and tick off the column.

What is noticeable is 3400++ verses or 55% of the 6236 verses of the Quran contain anti-disbeliever sentiments [evil, violence, derogatory, intolerances, condemnation, dehumanizing elements] of various degrees. Just note, 55%!!

Yes there are verses, 20-30 verses [e.g. your quoted 60:8 and others] that are seemingly positive to non-believers but these are overwhelmed by the tsunami of anti-disbelievers and they are abrogated by later more violent verses.
From this analysis one can sense the real pulse and ethos of the Quran and Islam, which is evil, violent and malignant.

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mohamedtaqi
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Re: Hi ! Mohamed - Morocco

Post by mohamedtaqi » Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:39 am

What is noticeable is 3400++ verses or 55% of the 6236 verses of the Quran contain anti-disbeliever sentiments [evil, violence, derogatory, intolerances, condemnation, dehumanizing elements] of various degrees. Just note, 55%!!
Well, that's a hard work and time invested there. But I think 55% is low. I personally disagree on more than 90% (I said 95%) of what's in there. But, forget about parents, when it says that we ought to help the poor , that's something I cannot argue with, so I cannot really say that I disagree with 100% of the Qur'an, that's why I picked 95% ( And I see there is nothing that I agree with that does not raise questions and exceptions).

Generally speaking, if you ask me : Would you recommend teaching that book to our kids? I would say : No. There are far better specialized works, because I do not see how an amalgam of contradictions would serve anyone.

Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Hi ! Mohamed - Morocco

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:56 am

mohamedtaqi wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:39 am
What is noticeable is 3400++ verses or 55% of the 6236 verses of the Quran contain anti-disbeliever sentiments [evil, violence, derogatory, intolerances, condemnation, dehumanizing elements] of various degrees. Just note, 55%!!
Well, that's a hard work and time invested there. But I think 55% is low. I personally disagree on more than 90% (I said 95%) of what's in there. But, forget about parents, when it says that we ought to help the poor, that's something I cannot argue with, so I cannot really say that I disagree with 100% of the Qur'an, that's why I picked 95% ( And I see there is nothing that I agree with that does not raise questions and exceptions).
55% is objective.
I have reviewed each verse and note whether it refer to the disbelievers [non-Muslim] or not. There are 825 verses with the root KFR in various forms that are related to disbeliever and 975 verses directly related to disbelieving.
In addition have to identify each pronoun like, they, who, whose, them, you, their, etc. to determine they are related to disbelievers.
I will disregard any verse that do not have the disbeliever element.

Bill Warner did an analysis based on the story-idea basis rather than on individual verses. His analysis show 64% of the Quran in terms of paragraphs and words are about the disbelievers [KFR kafir, kuffar] directly and indirectly.

Image

Re help the poor, in the context of the very anti-disbeliever ethos of the Quran, it is only helping the poor Muslims only.
There are exceptions, and we hardly hear of Islamic-based charities helping poor non-Muslims. If any Muslim were to help poor non-Muslims that is not Islamic per se but that is from their own inherent good human nature as human beings.
Generally speaking, if you ask me : Would you recommend teaching that book to our kids? I would say : No. There are far better specialized works, because I do not see how an amalgam of contradictions would serve anyone.
It is not merely contradiction, but the book is loaded with evil, violent and malignant elements that will induce the vulnerable to act according the commands of Allah.

Morally I would not recommend the kids to be indoctrinated with the principles of the Quran. Note right from the start with the first chapter which is repeated 17 times a day in the Muslims' prayer there is already the brainwashing of 'us versus them' and divisiveness;
  • 1:2. Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds,
    1:3. The Beneficent, the Merciful.
    1:4. Owner of the Day of Judgment, [Maliki yawmi alddeeni]
    1:5. Thee (alone) we [Muslims] worship; Thee alone we ask for help.
    1:6. Show us the Straight [QWM: mustaqim] Path [SRT: l-ṣirāṭa],
    1:7. The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not (the path) of those [Infidels] who earn Thine anger [GhDB l-maghdūbi wrath] nor of those [Infidels] who astray [DLL: dall].
Verse 1:7 will certain induce the primal 'us versus them' which will implant divisiveness between Muslims and non-Muslims with a sense of antagonism.
If Allah is angered by those [non-Muslims], that will naturally induce Muslims to do the same especially when their salvation to paradise is in the 'hands' of God.

In some Quran translations the above 'those' are included with Jews and Christians in parenthesis and this will be confirmed by the rest of the 6236 verses in the Quran.
See this very popular translation; https://dar-us-salam.com/TheNobleQuran/

Noted Kant in your profile image.
I noted Kant's philosophy is very parallel with Buddhism which led me to spend 3 years full time researching on Kantian philosophy.

Belinda
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Re: Hi ! Mohamed - Morocco

Post by Belinda » Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:54 pm

Mohammedtaqi wrote:
But there should be strict moral truths because we somehow know the limits where justice ends, and where oppression starts. That is : I know that if the thief is punished by serving 10 years in prison for stealing a chicken is oppression, and I know that serving 3 hours does injustice to that family which are deprived of their meal. So, the exact just punishment must be somewhere in between ... I do not know how much time he should serve, and I doubt any legislator knows for sure, that's why laws are not based on any ethical theory.

How should a law be devised then? a consequentialist theory that measures how much money (or value) is lost in the incident?

No, because it would still be unfair to punish two killers A and B by serving the same term , knowing that A killed by accident, and B killed intentionally.
You say "I know ". However what you know is subjective. It's subjective either because you choose to submit to authority, or because you have chosen based on your own experience.

Democracy is not perfect . But democracy is better than rule by authority because with democracy laws relating to both unfair punishments and unfair recompense to victims of crime might be altered by common consent. Dictatorship by civil or religious authority is basically wrong because no man can be trusted with too much power over other men.

truthaboutislam072
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Re: Hi ! Mohamed - Morocco

Post by truthaboutislam072 » Tue Sep 17, 2019 1:02 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:57 am
Agree with most of your points, except to comment on the following;

Thanks for sharing!
mohamedtaqi wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:01 pm
BUT, whoever is the founder of Islam and author of the Qur'an : I surely agree with him when he says that parents are to be respected, that we have to help the poor and give charity...etc.
Yes, the Quran does exhort one to be good to parents, bethren, kins, but that is only if they are Muslims. The Quran has a whole load of verses on ethics exhorting one to be good, [SLH; salih] [Ayn-Ra-Fa] Ma'ruf, but they are only applicable to Muslims.

As for non-Muslims, note;
  • 9:23. O ye [Muslims] who believe! Choose not your fathers nor your brethren for friends [WLY; awliyāa] if they take pleasure in disbelief [l-kuf'ra; as infidels] rather than faith [AMN; l-īmāni]. Whoso of you [Muslims] taketh them [infidels] for friends [WLY: awliyāa], such [Muslims] are wrong doers [ZLM: l-ẓālimūna] [sinful].

    29:8. We have enjoined on man kindness [HSN: ḥus'nan] to parents; but if they [your parents] strive [JHD: Jāhadāka] to make thee join with Me - that [partners, gods of infidels] of which thou hast no knowledge, - then obey them [parents] not. Unto Me is your return and I shall tell you what ye used to do.

    58:22. Thou wilt not find folk [Muslims] who believe in Allah and the Last Day loving [WDD: wadda] those [infidels] who oppose [HDD: ḥādda] Allah and His messenger: even though they [infidels] be their fathers or, their sons or their brethren or their clan.
I can nevertheless benefit from these practices (that's why I am a stoic, and I like buddhism), but I do not buy any claims regarding the nature of reality, and introspection is not a reliable method for studying these matters.
Buddhist is fundamentally non-theistic. It is true there are some schools of Buddhism which has various views on reality, e.g. the Store Consciousness and absolute reality of the Yogacara School.
However I believe Buddhism-proper is represented by the Rangtong School which simply focus on sunyata as pure emptiness without any reference to an absolute reality.

I see
Buddhism's 4NT-8FP as a Life Problem Solving Technique.
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=25193&hilit=four+Noble+truth

I agree with Buddhist philosophy but I am NOT a Buddhist officially.

Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 2021
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: Hi ! Mohamed - Morocco

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:40 am

truthaboutislam072 wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 1:02 pm
???
Your views on the Truth About Islam?

Truth = compliance with a specific framework.
  • Truth is most often used to mean being in accord with fact or reality, or fidelity to an original or standard
The truth of Islam is that which is in accord with the core constitution of Islam, i.e. the 6236 verses or the 77,473 words of the Quran and nothing else.

The truth of Islam must be the WHOLE truth from the Quran and not partial truth via cherry picking of verses.
This mean we need to understand the central message and its details as represented by the 6236 verses of the Quran, i.e. the direct words of Allah.

I will participate if you raise some threads to represent the 'truth about Islam'.

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