Aside from the natural physiological and biological innate drive to reproduce more of itself brought about by some function nature itself has programmed into the organism...
What do men and women actually really want from each other after that?
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Aside from the natural physiological and biological innate drive to reproduce more of itself brought about by some function nature itself has programmed into the organism...
The relevant physiological/biological drives to reproduce are natural, but they were not "programmed" by nature itself, rather, by a supernatural entity. Let's call this supernatural, transcendent, divine, entity/being "God." It not just about what human men and women want from each other; it's also what God wants them to want from each other, and that it to be together, ultimately for one man and one woman to bond with each other in love, and become "as one." He also wants them to promise that they will stay together always and create a family. He wants them to pledge that only death will part them. But God can't force a man and a woman to do any of this, because he gave all human beings free will. He just sits back and keeps his fingers crossed. He's already had his say in the matter; he's said, very clearly what he thinks is the best way for men and women to go, its all recorded in the Bible.
This is just a story men and women tell themselves, it's a belief structure they have invented in order that they know they exist. I personally don't believe in imaginary stories anymore. I believe in myself, the one I am, but I do not believe in the one I think I am which is just an imagined other one - the one I made up.Dachshund wrote: ↑Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:07 am The relevant physiological/biological drives to reproduce are natural, but they were not "programmed" by nature itself, rather, by a supernatural entity. Let's call this supernatural, transcendent, divine, entity/being "God." It not just about what human men and women want from each other; it's also what God wants them to want from each other, and that it to be together, ultimately for one man and one woman to bond with each other in love, and become "as one." He also wants them to promise that they will stay together always and create a family. He wants them to pledge that only death will part them. But God can force a man and a woman to do any of this, because he gave all human being free will. He just sits back and keeps his fingers crossed. He's already had his say in the matter; he's said, very clearly what he thinks is the best way for men and women to go, its all recorded in the Bible.
Do you mean we cannot love a man or a woman unconditionally? I'm especially referring to two people who agree to couple up and live together because they believe they have fallen in love with each other and so want to be together?Lacewing wrote: ↑Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:11 pmAs for being able to tell someone you love to "fuck off"...I can speak to that! From my perspective: WE ARE ON A STAGE much of the time. We do all kinds of conscious and unconscious, good and bad, constructive and disruptive things on that stage. We are wild creators and destroyers. And we dance with and around each other, influenced and distorted by countless things. We can love someone while not loving what they are being or doing.
But why love someone at all? why do we have to convince ourselves that we love others? why do we need to love another?Lacewing wrote: ↑Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:11 pmPersonally, I can love a person and yet still respond very vocally to whatever crazy, distorted thing they're doing, which may be their load of crap or may be affecting everyone around them. So, to that character on the stage, I say "fuck you" or "fuck off". I know that is not who they are at the core of their being or in their basic nature (so to speak), but they have taken on that role or mask to act out something, and I will say if I think it's fucked up.
For me, it depends what LOVE actually means. I personally don't see love anywhere, except the idea that it exists. For me, it's just another made-up concept by humans. For me, love is an idea in me that means I can adore the face I see in the mirror, it's as if I am addicted and obssessed by my own image, and then I see other people or animals and all kinds of other things, and I call all those things love, because I say I love all this that I see.
I understand this thanks. So in effect what you are saying is that no one can love you unconditionally. And if someone does tell you they can then they are just lying to themselves and the other they claim to love right?Lacewing wrote: ↑Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:11 pm But I'm not going to endure someone's absurdly self-indulgent and destructive stage show just because I love them. I might say, "take off the mask, put down the script, and get off the fucking stage". All with love in my heart. They can do the same for me when necessary. If we interact on the stage together, that's the show we're producing. Hopefully it's entertaining and fun. If not, we don't have to participate. At any time, we can walk away from the stage.
For me, from my perspective, behind the mask that humans wear is nothingness, behind the mask, there is a blank innocence prior to the knowledge of oneself coming into existence at all.When they stop acting like a raving lunatic and creating so much noise, then we can feel the undercurrent of ever-flowing love again. It (the love) doesn't go away... not for me.
Hopefully it's worth it...Dachshund to Dontaskme wrote: I'll get back to you asap. I need to deal with Lacewing first
I agree with you that this human world and everything in it is made-up. Because without the human world of apparent separation and distinction, there is no other to feel anything about, or do anything to/with. For me, that's the reason for the human world: to explore the possibilities of creativity through feeling and doing and interaction.
I said I would respond to some more of your comments/questions, but I think I actually already did enough in my last post.
That's fair enough, I'm not expecting you or anyone else to reply to every idea and comment made here, to you or any other person...else we'd be spending our entire day and night chatting about this subject, it's a time we don't really have, so lets just say what is important to us that we would like to specifically address, and not stress too much on the details in absolute detail.
Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:17 pmHere's what I'd like to add...
I think it's helpful not to take any view too seriously. When we start feeling too spun up or discouraged, we can turn our focus to the gentle flow of nature that we're part of. That always has a rebalancing effect for me. It reminds me of that which is beyond words and ideas and human noise and upsets. It's a calm place of being that doesn't require anything. And that's a wonderful place to be and to observe from.
I'm feeling drawn there now too.
Yes I agree to some extent, but for me, I can see straight through the people for what they are which is a pretence of what is actually really going on here in reality, which can take for ever to explain, so I'll stop there for now.Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:31 pm
I agree with you that this human world and everything in it is made-up. Because without the human world of apparent separation and distinction, there is no other to feel anything about, or do anything to/with. For me, that's the reason for the human world: to explore the possibilities of creativity through feeling and doing and interaction.
In the context of switching the word LOVE over to on or off, can be just another belief structure that one uses for it's own manipulation over others especially when applied with deceitful intention that often comes with disastrous consequences.
Yes I am a mum, I see what you are saying and agree. A mothers love for her children is usually unconditional self-less love. Except when the mother herself is a Sociopathic Narcissist.
Again, for me, the word love is overused, and overrated, for me it's all about raising offspring to survive in what is often a very inhospitable and disturbing world that seeks only for it's own survival at all cost.Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:31 pm
The kind of love I'm talking about is a combination of like what innocent babies express... a kind of joyful welcoming and longing to connect -- COMBINED with a deeper appreciation that comes from broader awareness (of maturing) -- and it is just THERE naturally. There is no effort. There is no giving and receiving of it specifically, as it's more like a frequency. There may be giving and receiving of things that are inspired by it, or that are inspired by other ideas of love, and those are the things that are less reliable, maybe because they're more on the stage we act out on.
For me, I prefer to substitute the word LOVE for PRESENCE.Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:31 pm Some people are much better at maintaining their sense of love throughout everything that is thrown at them. Regardless of who/what we love, sometimes we have to walk away. There is so much going on, on the stage of existence -- I think we can feel love for the vast display and potential of creativity, without being embroiled in every scene going on within it. Perhaps radiating love in certain areas is a good use of being here.
I don't think we are ever in a position to turn our noses up at experiences, because they are just happening spontaneously unless we choose one out of deliberate intent, and by experiencing by intent, the idea of turning our nose up wouldn't even arise.
We can have fun, but also it's not always fun, sometimes it's horrifically not fun at all. And what we can accomplish will all be lost. Everything we see and experience and gain...we lose, we lose it all, as everything we see and experience, is nothing more than an empty passing show that defaults to nothing in the end.
Please excuse the length of this... every bit of it is honest and heartfelt from a state of presence.
Sure! I totally get that. I don't feel like I HAVE TO try to love someone, though. Hopefully what I've shared above in my post shows that I often just feel it... I'm not trying! (Perhaps it's a different kind of thing than love... but I don't know how else to describe it.)Dontaskme wrote: ↑Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:14 pm For me, I prefer to substitute the word LOVE for PRESENCE.
I can be present with people without feeling like I have to love them or not. And vice versa, I would like others to feel they can be present with me without the added pressure on them to feel like they have to love me or not.
It would be wonderful... even if only some of the time... but I suppose that, at some points, the earthly stage rises up no matter what. That's why it's so important to choose who we get on stage with if it's going to be something more significant to us.
Yes. And where we experience it from -- how REAL it feels -- affects the intensity of it. Sometimes the less real it is, the more fun or humorous it can be. We can say "Look at the show! Wow! Amazing!" My best friends are people I can laugh with about troubling things. We may start out crying how awful something is, and before we know it, we're laughing at the absurdity and the show! That is a wonderful thing to share and experience with someone! Life, with all of its delusion, absurdity, blindness, bloated egos, twisted creativity, and even horror, can be seen as very funny. It's helpful to keep that perspective on hand.
As you are aware of at times, there is nothing actually being gained or lost. It is the experience of the moment -- that is precious -- and then a new moment comes along. There is always MORE to be experienced, regardless of who it might be with. The EXPERIENCE is the gift, perhaps! That's what this human thing is all about. What can we experience, and what can we do with that? Then we're gone. Sweet.
Thanks. This was a really interesting exploration/communication FOR ME, inspired by your comments and questions. Wishing you a lovely day on or off the stage.
Dear DAM,Dontaskme wrote: ↑Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:14 pm --
We can have fun, but also it's not always fun, sometimes it's horrifically not fun at all. And what we can accomplish will all be lost. Everything we see and experience and gain...we lose, we lose it all, as everything we see and experience, is nothing more than an empty passing show that defaults to nothing in the end.
Just reply to what you want here Lacy, or nothing at all, there is no expectation here to say anything.
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You are most definitely safe to still assume thatvegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:00 amOdd. I assumed you were a male for some reason.
I think not. I've lived 59 years, had 21 sex partners, and had sex too many times to keep count. I have one child.